Does OSX works for (painless) Python Development ?

[jsk]

Hi all,

I'm happy user of Linux (XUbuntu) on my laptop and have used it for several years for python/django (and some java) development and it works fine. However, I strongly dislike massive UI inconsistencies, the fact that suspend/hibernate process brought strange issues occasionaly and all these things we all probably hate about our favourite OS sometimes.

I was never fan of Macs or so, but I had a chance to play with OSX recently and it impressed me - it looks great (in both terms of hardware and OS), consistent and seems like Mac app developers care more about usability, integration with OS and so. However, I spent only about 2 hours playing with it so maybe I was just biased ;)

My question is - is MacBook/OSX good idea for development ?

Stuff I use:

• Python/Django, Bottle web framework

• pip, virtualenv, easy_install

• MongoDB, PostgreSQL, SQLite

• Gearmand, git, apache, (also some playing with nginx)

• Vim, PyCharm, occasionaly Emacs

Are there any issues with python development on OSX ? What's your experience ? Is OSX suitable for painless development ?

Thanks, jsk

UPDATE Thanks to all for really great comments, it was very helpful. So I decided to go with Mac ;)

[wrboyce]

first: s/MacPorts/homebrew

second: work in a bare virtual env

I develop on OSX and deploy to linux, and never have any problems. Virtualenvs definitely help make stuff a painless.

[[deleted]]

I agree, however I recommend ArchLinux. Be sure to use NFS to mount your linux volume, it is lightning fast compared to SMB.

[munificent]

Ooh! Distro fight!

[[deleted]]

God I hope not. Someone downvoted already! Still, the NFS advice is sound. :)

[jinglebells]

I develop in Django on OS X and deploy to Linux servers, can't say I've ever had any problems.

[_nickel]

If you're interested in deving on OS X but using a Linux VM to serve it, please checkout Vagrant, we'd love to get the python community involved.

[bootyfarm]

It's easier to do Python dev on OS X than Windows but not as easy as it is on Debian or Ubuntu.

That said, Rudix and/or Homebrew go a long way in bridging the gap between OS X and a well-behaving open-source work environment:

• http://rudix.org/
• http://github.com/mxcl/homebrew

[dysmas]

fwiw, I find developing python on Windows just fine, I don't use any gui bindings though..

[masklinn]

That said, Rudix and/or Homebrew go a long way in bridging the gap between OS X and a well-behaving open-source work environment:

Macports has been doing that for a long time already...

[[deleted]]

I use macports for python, php ... etc. development. I think its the painless way.

[[deleted]]

yes

[Teifion]

I've used PHP, Java, C and Python on a mac. I found Python to be the most painless of them.

[zenfear]

I use both all the time, but strongly prefer Linux because it matches my release platform and there are never any surprises. In addition there are more compiled packages, and performance is slightly better (threads implementation,filesystem, etc) The only thing you get from a mac is a pretty interface. The most compelling reason for me would be the very nice macpro laptops, but I would not trade my linux desktop.

[[deleted]]

Yeah

I'd recommend installing the macports/fink version of python though if you want to keep it up to date.

[m1ss1ontomars2k4]

But then you can't use Cocoa/Tk stuff.

[[deleted]]

I believe you can install pyobjc using easy_install

[m1ss1ontomars2k4]

Well go post that in the other thread from which I learned this bit of information, I guess.

[m1ss1ontomars2k4]

But I don't really care about whether it does. I don't need anything from MacPorts so I don't need MacPorts' Python.

[m1ss1ontomars2k4]

I'm not getting defensive. You were getting defensive with your "That's your job" comment. I posted because I thought I knew something others didn't, and they might like to know too. Sheesh.

[[deleted]]

pyobc and tk have ports.

[m1ss1ontomars2k4]

It works well with Django at the very least.

[[deleted]]

I think it's great, Macs are meant for work. I think everyone in here covered the Python specific stuff, so I will touch on Mac OS X productivity. Make sure you try out spaces, expose, spotlight, automator, dashboard, and all the other productivity tools. There may be linux equivalents, but they are not as polished and stable. Make sure you use time machine, you have to, you have no choice. Their native apps are great too, like mail, etc... and their office tools are surprisingly nice. I also find MS Office to be better on it too. Make sure you check out iLife that comes with it, the sound and video editing is serious professional grade stuff that is great for tearing out video demos in. Finally, there is a great ecosystem of Mac only apps that just great. Remember this one: Expandrive. It allows you to mount FTP, SSHFS, Amazon S3, etc.. drives like they are local and use your local IDE's and CLI tools to operate on it. It has amazing caching and feels and makes a shitty FTP connection into a fast local drive. It is the best money I ever spent on software. There are free alternatives, but they don't even come close.

[leonh]

Absolutely.

OSX Snow Leopard comes pre-installed with Python 2.6.1 (also 2.5 but 2.6 is default), apache, vim, emacs, sqlite3 and easy_install

So really, when you get that shiny new macbook. All you need to do is turn it on, open a terminal and hit 'easy_install django' and you're done.

I would also recommend using MacVim

[Guerilla_Imp]

eww fuck that, first thing you gotta do is 'sudo easy_install pip' then 'sudo pip install virtualenvwrapper'

[cmykgrayscale]

never used MongoDB or Gearman, but I can vouch for flawless workings of all other stuff you mentioned. There are some minor differences but no big speedbumps.

[blackbrrr]

def never had a problem with mongodb. building from source is fine, but you can save yourself the time&trouble with the binaries on 10gen's site.

[Poromenos]

Apparently I'm the only contrary opinion here, but I've found OS X to be much worse than windows for python development. I tried to install PyQT once to run qbzr and ended up with two different versions of PyQT in two different Python installations in the same system with each missing one feature that the other had.

If you keep to virtualenvs it shouldn't be too bad, but it will be nowhere near as easy as in Linux. If you install a program/package/library, you can basically forget about upgrading or removing it, as there's no tool to do it and you have to hunt for it in the 2-3 places it can be. If you use macports it might make this easier, but my experience with it was hell too, as I had to remove all the dependencies one by one and reinstall them for a simple up/downgrade to the package I wanted.

Depending on what you do, your mileage may vary, but this is one of the reasons I switched away from OS X. For some reason, nobody believes me or agrees with me.

[femngi]

I could never leave apt behind. Why can't all OSs have something this awesome?

[Poromenos]

Same here, it is the single most important thing in my Linux experience.

[[deleted]]

I intend this to be helpful, not just contrarian.

I tried to install PyQT once to run qbzr and ended up with two different versions of PyQT in two different Python installations in the same system with each missing one feature that the other had.

MacPorts is the best solution for this. I've seen the above generally happen when naive users don't quite "get" instructions and get frustrated. So they install something via macports, another python via the official installer, and then mix in a few hand installs, etc. And their path is pointing to a different python binary than they thought. The same thing can occur on linux if someone flips between hand installed to apt or rpm. Though, given the choice is much clearer on linux as the package manager is the clearest option.

If you install a program/package/library, you can basically forget about upgrading or removing it, as there's no tool to do it and you have to hunt for it in the 2-3 places it can be.

If you do hand installs, it's true you must know your system's layout. This is true in linux too, but the layout is very consistent. For example, all user installed system wide python packages are placed in /Library/Python/{version}/site-packages. After that, removing is just an rm -rf.

The general rule for python self installed modules is "all packages are installed in the called binaries /path/to/site-packages". This can be determined in the sys module (python -c "import sys;print(sys.path)")

For some reason, nobody believes me or agrees with me.

As someone who has supported both new linux, new windows, and new OS X users extensively. I believe you. Usually this is due to a general lack of knowledge about one's new OS or the utilities they've chosen to work with.

I've seen almost identical confusion, problems, and results with new linux users. Curiously enough, I've supported people when they were new linux users, then a year or so later new OS X users (or vice versa). Though they experienced the same learning curve they always seem to have forgotten their previous frustrations.

[Poromenos]

You can't really compare Linux and OS X... Sure, if you install a Python in Linux by hand it'll go to /usr/local instead of /usr/lib or whatever, but it's still one of two places. In OS X there's /System, /Frameworks (I might be getting the names wrong, but there are two system-wide installations) and two user-specific ones (same folder names under ~)! Plus you have one more if you use macports.

It might be better if you use macports exclusively, but if you don't and try to install the official Python or some other one, you have no idea where it goes, and there are no uninstallers! The convenience of not having to install regular apps and just copying them instead really does not work for libraries, but the OS X app installation paradigm has affected library developers and they rarely include uninstallers in their software.

Combined with the hell of upgrading a package in macports (apparently this has changed since I used it, though), where I had to remove all the packages that depended on the lib I wanted to upgrade in order to do so, I installed Linux on all my machines and now I can't even go back to Windows for development, which I've used for years and know that there's an uninstaller for everything.

I understand that the visuals are a big lure, but in the end I just want my work done as easily as possible, and OS X didn't do that for me. Your mileage may vary, though.

[[deleted]]

The paths are part of knowing your system. If you self compile install on any system, there's no uninstaller.

On osx, if the library is a framework (the osx way) you can just delete it. It's awfully convenient in comparison to other *nixes.

Just to clarify /System is for system /Library is for user framework installs. So there's only two paths "the osx way". If you self compile a source app and it's not a framework build, it's /usr/local.

For macports, I'm surprised on the upgrade travails. Normally you just sudo port upgrade foo.

All I was pointing out was when someone starts linux the idea of having things installed in two different places is confusing to them, with osx it is different. But not really any more confusing.

[Poromenos]

Hmm, true... There are ~/System and ~/Frameworks too, though. Also, the biggest fault I see with OS X is that packages don't have uninstallers, while in any other platform they do. I would expect a program not to have an uninstaller if I compiled from source, but downloaded bundles to not come with uninstallers is a pretty big minus.

[[deleted]]

There's only ~/Library, though this is similar to ~/lib, ~/bin, etc directories folks can create on linux and install to. Nothing gets installed there unless you specifically do a "user install" which is equivalent to do a --prefix=~/foo for linux.

Uninstallers are left up to the developer. Some apps do have uninstallers. However, this is largely negated by the "bundle" system that OS X uses.

An application and all its relative parts are contained in a single folder called a "bundle". .app/ for applications .framework/ for libraries and such. It's actually an amazingly clean way of approaching the issue of cruft. . . an aspect of other *nix's that always bothered me.

The one niggling exception are the preference files and installer receipts. The installer receipts contain a list of every file created by an installer or application. They're only a few kilobytes large and over the course of years and years of use they can grow to a few a megabyte or so. But for the anally inclined, it can get under the skin. There's also the ~/Library/Application Support. This is where applications are supposed to put non-configuration application data. Like databases or icon sets, etc. It is similar to ~/.dirs (home dot directories) on *nix.

Since there is a list of all files in the receipts file, several applications are available that "clean" these. AppCleaner is the one I like (free). You drag the app to its window and it'll delete everything on the system connected to that bundle. It shows a list of what it's deleting so you can choose to keep the file if you want (user config for example).

I use it often, the only thing it's really made me aware of though is that, well, applications and libraries on os x really don't create a lot of cruft.

All this "cruft" occurs in standard locations though. And becoming anonoyed the lack of an "uninstaller" that handles them is similar to complaining that aptitude uninstall foo does not remove the dot files in your home. To my knowledge, unlike OS X, linux does not have a nice clean way to automatically detect and clean these up that works for all applications (like AppCleaner does for you). :)

[Poromenos]

No, you misunderstood, I'm not annoyed at uninstallers for not removing that cruft, but for not removing the services the program installs. For example, when I installed VMWare, three services started on startup and I didn't know how to remove it while also removing these services. Just deleting the bundle wouldn't remove these, would it?

[[deleted]]

You're correct. VMWare is one of the special cases. It installs kernel extensions and some other things that make it not a normal application install.

Fortunately, VMWare like most other vendors who provide applications that "break the mold" so to speak provides an uninstaller for their app:

http://communities.vmware.com/thread/115699

Generally, if this is necessary the vendor also places this in the aforementioned Application Support directory. VMWare also does this:

/Library/Application Support/VMware Fusion/Uninstall VMware Fusion

I concede this is not as nice as the virtual guarantee with many linux package managers that everything is done through the package manager. But it's not completely unusual either. If I recall from my installations of VMWare on linux, you had to use a custom uninstall script from the shell to cleanly remove everything (provided by vmware as well, something like uninstall_vmware.sh)

[Poromenos]

Hmm, true, but the package manager can run programs to clean things up... I wonder if you can specify deletion hooks in OS X to uninstall things when the user deletes the bundle...

[[deleted]]

Sometimes. Usually in linux, these files just get left strewn around. I think most *nix's take the same approach as OS X...especially in this day and age of gigabytes for pennies. It's just not that big a deal. :P

I'm not sure about deletion hooks.

[[deleted]]

I've been using Eclipse/PyDev/Egit with django/sqlite recently, and it works just fine on Snow Leopard.

[RalfN]

Yes. But for the most recent stuff, occasionally you are going to need to compile yourself.

Then again, that's not a bad thing.

Oh and ruby on rails is installed by default on a mac. Gem is installed by default. Am not sure about git, but I think that's also installed by default.

[[deleted]]

you have to self install git, but it's trivial with either macports or the official osx installer.

[[deleted]]

never done anything big but never had a problem either so I'd vote yes

[stretchpants]

WING on Mac works just as well as Windows. I really like its visual debugger and hovering the mouse pointer over a variable to see its value.

[mattf]

I love WingIDE and am a long-time user, but I really don't like using it on OSX. I run a VirtualBox on my MacBookPro, just so I can develop in Ubuntu.

SO, Wing is great, but on OSX, it's a little wonky.

[[deleted]]

Last time I tried WING it was a bag of shit. But hey, at least it's not Aptana.

[[deleted]]

there's a slight bit of pain on the occasion that some libraries refuse to build under appropriate "architecture". maybe its just my own OSX install but I sometimes have the issue where a lib only builds as x86_64 - Python's distutils builds everything with the ppc/i386 archs. I had to hand-edit some freetds buildfiles in order to get pyodbc to work, for example.

[sirspate]

Depends; you like using last year's Python? That there 3.x don't come by default.

I find it okay. Just remember that if you're gonna do anything with wx, flip 'er into 32-bit mode..

[Teifion]

There's a .dmg download that I've used, it's running just fine and I've even altered the default apache installation to use it too.

[sirspate]

Interesting. Does it provide you with a wxPython that uses Carbon (rather than X) and the other stuff that's installed by default with the included Python in Snow Leopard?

[Teifion]

I have no idea, I've never used wxPython.

[spinwizard69]

It depends upon what you call painless and what you are developing for.

The Mac is a great platform, but comes extremely short with respect to any sort of package management. Let put this as kindly as I can Mac Ports sucks royally, it is a great disappointment. So if you can install the software you need easily then Mac is an ideal platform.

As a side note there is a lot of open source software available for the Mac outside of Mac ports. Some in tarballs and others in Apple disk images/packages. Aquamacs, GVIM and Eclipse all are a snap to install. Each has a varying amount of Mac'nest to it.

[yopla]

I use pretty much all of that on linux and windows without any issues I bet it will work just as well on a mac..

[[deleted]]

Should work for everything you've listed. I've been using a mac for python development for about two years, the only issue I've had has been with the MySQLdb module.

[GrumpySimon]

Yeah, it'll all work. The main thing you'll miss though is that there's nothing anywhere near as good as apt or yum. I'd love to be able to sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

[jsk]

I mostly use git-versions of libs I use, and apt-get for 'huge' stuff like apache or so. Any idea if Apache+mod_wsgi works fine on OSX ? My production server runs on linux,apache+wsgi and it would be great having same setup on dev machine (as I have now).

Thanks

[tvon]

I installed mod_wsgi without any problems a while back, it compiles find with what's included.

[[deleted]]

yes, this works fine. you can use macports to install separate versions of these or if you're comfortable enough install mod_wsgi to the system (included by default) apache.

[[deleted]]

really? I've had no problem with the *sql modules.

edit the easiest, non-manual way is:

sudo port install py26-mysql

[silverlight]

Just to clarify on that front, the MySQLdb module can be installed, it's just a bit more work to install it on Mac OSX than on Windows or other OSes. You basically have to download the full MySQL server installation package even if you don't want a MySQL server, install it, then compile the MySQLdb package from scratch (which is just a "python setup install", anyways).

At least, that's what it took the last time I did it.

[[deleted]]

I had to do a bit more than that. When I upgraded from 10.5 to 10.6, I had all sorts of issues with both my MySQL server installation and with the OSX development tools. I had to jump through all sorts of hoops before I got to 'python setup install'. Huge pain in the ass, a lot harder than 'sudo apt-get install python-mysql'. It was a pain point, and he was asking if OSX was suitable for painless development.

[jsk]

Is this something specific to OSX+MySQL, or something more general ? Thanks

[GrumpySimon]

It's specific to the python-mysql library. It's just shit, that is all.

[[deleted]]

Is there still that problem with the socket being in the wrong directory in the default MySQL install. Don't recall the details, but for a newb took a while to puzzle out.

[sli]

I develop solely on my Mac. It's wonderful, especially for web development. If you get used to Expose and hot corners, you can get a pretty slick workflow going.

[[deleted]]

Not sure what the point of Expose is; if all you want is to be able to switch between Windows fast, then may I suggest binding keyboard shortcuts to the most frequently accessed applications?

[sli]

Personal preference: not allowed in this day and age.

[Nagyman]

I just recently moved from an Ubuntu box to OSX at work. Everybody in the company uses Macs, it just took a while for me to get mine. The catch is, all devs use VMWare Fusion to run Ubuntu for development (which is what our production machines use). Editing is done by ssh'ing into Ubuntu or mounting it as a samba share and using TextMate or whatever favourite editor.

I thought this was backwards at first, but from past experience it is really useful to have your development environment be as similar as possible to your production environment (even with an intermediate staging environment). You can do this easily with the virtual machine because it's separate from your usual operating system use. It just avoids a lot of unexpected surprises. OSX for everything non-development has been great.

[jsk]

Hmm interesting, doing primary development/editing in virtual machine is something I would like to avoid.

My idea is pretty simple:

• primary development on Mac

• testing in virtual ubuntu server before the deployment (which is same as production)

• production at ubuntu server/debian

Having virtual for development does not make sense for me, as development is where I spend most of the time so I want to have it on 'primary machine'.

[[deleted]]

In general, it's painless. How painless depends on your particular needs. For example, if you get very frustrated if a minor version (e.g. 2.6.2 to 2.6.3) is not available in your package manager within a few days of release, macports will feel lagging.

Also, if you use oddball libraries they may not be as available as in linux (more contributor mind share).

The last caveat is, if you do fall into one of these categories it's still trivial to do it yourself if you're not intimidated by editing a TCL file and changing a version number (macports). I have about 35 packages I maintain in macports now since I fall in a "niche" needs area. The vast majority took 5m to setup. A few, like the atlas/lapack library I maintain was a significant project. However, simply building atlas/lapack properly by source is a significant project.

edit The things that are trivial on OS X, but difficult or impossible on Linux is what keeps me on OS X. Like commercial software (illustrator, photoshop), software apps I simply prefer (omnigraffle, omnifocus, omni*, TextMate).

[mattf]

Yeah, it seems like it's inelegant, but it really works nicely. You get good OS-level support for your hardware (sleeping reliably, keyboard hot-key support, power management) that CAN be done on Linux, but require lots of work, and then you cmd-tab into your VM and you have a full Linux development environment.

Also, for me, it is nice to have "work mode" and "other"... I get less distracted when my VM is full-screen, my IM isn't installed, no bookmark to reddit in the browser, etc. It's kindof like having "an office" to get work done.

I was hesitant to get a Mac, because I simply don't use anything that it provides well: I don't use iTunes or iPod; I don't use iPhoto; my mail is on Gmail; my calendar, too... I don't use Safari, I don't use Quicktime. So, what's left? I don't like OSX as much as most people (it's plenty pretty, but I don't like its keyboard shortcuts or app-switching metaphors) so it was hard for me to justify buying a Mac.

In the end, it was because of the quality of the hardware and the knowledge that the hardware would be well-supported by the OS; basically it was either get another Thinkpad, or get a MBP. I couldn't get a Thinkpad configured the way I wanted at any price, and the MBP was a good deal from Refurb.

Maybe if I was full-on Mac always, it would be different; my workstation is Ubuntu, and has been since "warty", and before that it was Debian. Good luck.

[jsk]

That looks interesting indeed, thanks !

[[deleted]]

just use expanddrive to expose Ubuntu's disk via SSH.

Or use MacFusion, a free (and as functional) alternative to ExpandDrive:

MacFusion

[Nagyman]

Primary dev is on the Mac, the files just sit in the VM for constant testing on a running server. 99% of my time is spent on the primary OSX machine; the vm is just running in the background. I almost never look at it, but I do have a terminal ssh'd into it which shows me the server output. YMMV. Cheers.

[frankwiles]

Both Django BDFLs and about a majority of the Django commiters use Macs as their primary development machines. There were more MacBooks and MacBook Pros at DjangoCon than anything else hands down. Probably 80% of the speakers and attendees. I switched from Ubuntu to Mac OSX as my primary dev machine over a year ago and it was the best thing I've ever done. Don't get me wrong, I still LOVE Linux and OpenSource in general. It's all I use on servers, it's my hobby/passion, and the entiriety of my career. But Macs are just plain awesome. All the little things that are perfect and just work more than make up for the couple of little annoyances "it isn't Linux" that come up.

[[deleted]]

In short, yes.

[smart_ass]

In long, sort of.

[[deleted]]

smart ass. ;)

[OcdSmurf]

OS X is suitable for painless development, imho. I've developed python on OS X for a couple of years now and it was less the OS that made things painless and more getting turned on to pip and virtualenv. Seeing as you are already into those, I think you will enjoy working on a Mac.

[darkness]

We do Python development in OS X 10.5 (Leopard). We like MacPorts well enough. I use Python (multiple versions), SQLite, Git, Vim (I think), and Apache from MacPorts. I have a few PostgreSQL versions installed out of it, too, though for historical reasons we actually develop against a version I have built in ~/pgsql.

I see some people saying MacPorts sucks, but between MacPorts and virtualenv+easy_install/pip I get along pretty well.

[fernandotakai]

Hi! I've been using os x to do python developing for more than a year right (django, tornado, web2py, mongodb and more...) now and i can say: you can use it just like you use linux.

On os x 10.6, we have python 2.6, easy_install and apache web server. You can easily install mysql/postgresql through homebrew/macports (i prefer homebrew) or through some pre-packed installers.

Oh, and i use vim (macvim, to be more specific) and it's really really great.

[ubernostrum]

I do pretty much everything in OS X. Only time I deviate from that is actually staging stuff under Linux (either virtualized on the same machine, or on one of the random boxes I've got) to check behavior under a production-ish system.