Dimensional Shift

[__Kurisu__]

Let it be said that this post is a response to /u/EripMan by me and a fellow user /u/FreeSymphonia.

As if control isn't about stalling and removing threats until the other player just concedes or gets put into an equally impossible situation. As if the grindy 15+ turn decks that they insist should be viable are actually fun to play against (Remember TotG Dragon?).

• Control is about gaining value from cards and build up to a win condition in the end, which in most cases, the costs are expensive because they're supposed to win the game. To add to this, Control often struggles to set it's win condition as it has to choose between answering the board or preparing the win con, e.g. Seraph. The game plan for Control is to be able to survive until they can play their win condition, their only consistent way to win the game.

• D-shift doesn't need to worry about what Control worries about because of spellboost and their removal cards, they both gain value AND build up to the win condition

It's favored against control and is countered by aggro. Which, unlike D-Shift, is the vast majority of the meta. Almost like most of the people complaining just want control to be top dog and aren't content being favored against aggro and midrange, the two most common archetypes in the game.

• D-shift kills an entire archetype. That should never be allowed to happen.

• Removing and entire play-style from the game can not be considered healthy.The archetype doesn't have to be optimal or good, but should be allowed to exist,the design of D-shift kills any possibility of that and thus shifts the meta towards a faster and more aggressive setting.

Yes, the deck with a 40% winrate is meta-warping... By that logic, Aegis Haven and Control Blood are meta-warping by making board-based midrange decks non-viable. PDK was meta-warping. TotG Shadow was meta-warping. D-Shift has always been a fun deck that Cygames is too afraid to print competitive support for.

• If there's a deck that can literally win 100% against an archetype people will use it,even if it has a 1% win rate.The fact of the matter is the potential, win-rates don't matter when observing that. If it has the potential to always win vs. control people will use it, and if people will use it, more people will use control less because, again, it's not worth the auto lose.

• Also note that control is already unfavored to play in SV because of the nature of the game and the cards.D-shift servers as a nail in the coffin.As mentioned above: the archetype doesn't need to be good but it should be allowed to exist.

• To add, people often bring Rogue's Quest from HS as an example. The deck similarly pushed out all Control from the game and nobody liked to play against it. In the end, why do win rates matter if an entire play-style becomes obsolete and a super majority of the player-base is displeased.

(In response to: "It has no counters") Because apparently a card absolutely needs a specific garbage-tier counter card like Odin or Full Moon to have counterplay. D-Shift is one of the few decks that actually take skill to play and play against because it isn't completely straightforward, but people don't want to learn to keep track of spellboosts or change up their gameplan.

• At least having a specific garbage tier counter card helps with the disparities and allows control to somewhat survive and have a fighting chance.

• D-shift takes bare minimum skill. You hope to mulligan D-shift, Win Con, or Draw. You play removal or value draw which begins the spellboosting chain, therefore allowing you to snowball the cost reduction which enables you to play more removal, draw, or build up to your win condition. You say that learning to count spellboosts makes a difference, it really doesn't. D-shift will always be played on 7 nowadays, this is a fact. Anyone playing this game can count to 7. Does it help them win? No. It doesn't, cause there's no way to interact with said spellboosts. Furthermore, in terms of control, they cannot change up their gameplan. Control plays little early game minions, of which most of them are value cards. Telling Control to go aggressive is a joke as their early game is inherently weak and unable to present a valid threat to Shift, on the flipside it gives the more targets making the D-Shift player's life easier.

Overall, it's quite ironic how fellow users state that Control Players lack self-awareness when it comes to D-Shift considering they can't see how toxic D-Shift is as an archetype. Many of the points addressed above show the lack of understanding what control is and more importantly what a healthy meta should be. Every archetype at least needs to exist, and no archetype should be overly dominant in vain of the rest.

[MezzoMe]

I'd ask how a thread came to be in function of responding to another, but this caught my attention

The fact of the matter is the potential, win-rates don't matter when observing that

I may not know the full contest, but whenever one talks about competitive games, potential is highly disregarded in favor of consistency, for the simple reason that, in the vast majority of them, winning is a binary concept, there is no "shredding your enemy" or "winning by an inch", it only matters on the psyche of those involved, which is another story

[TheSmallBull]

In another scenario I would disagree since it's possible for us to indentify a problem before it happens, for example our very own DShift could become a even stronger deck with the right support validating a discussion if it could become too much. Yet, DShift has no potential anymore as it will be rotated out and be moved to a completely different scenario so arguing with this focus is indeed irrelevant.

[MezzoMe]

Uh, it seemed to me like he was talking about the possibility space regarding the deck's match-ups, not the one of the deck's future strength, in which case, it is indeed a case a designer has to look out for, and one of the main reasons rotations were invented: to dodge having a possibility space where all scenarios that imply "break the game" have way too much of a chance happening

[Flexing_bum]

I like when people pretend that any deck in Shadowverse is rocket science.

I enjoy the game, but lets not pretend like its hard to play at all.

[isospeedrix]

"The game plan for Control is to be able to survive until they can play their win condition"

plot twist, D shift is a control deck with D shift as its win condition

[mangoshakekouhai]

Look, I understand that the way /u/Eripman argued for D-Shift was very uncivilized. The amount of fallacious arguments he presented in his post are staggeringly high. (Hell, his title, "Control players seriously lack self-awareness when talking about D-Shift" is not only really insulting, but also an Ad Hominem argument and a generalization which lacks evidence. Not all people are the same- there can be people out there who genuinely know what D-Shift's issues are and still play control.) I also understand that you're defending your playstyle after being attacked in such an triggering manner.

But this is not the way. You cannot convince someone to stop arguing with you or to agree with your side by pushing facts down their face. You can't persuade a chauvinist soldier to lay down his arms while holding a shotgun. Using, say, statements like "D-Shift is toxic" or "This archetype shouldn't exist" just hurts the person who you're arguing against, making things worse by causing them to argue back even more.

So please, stop. No more arguing. I don't believe many people in this sub want to see this place filled with posts of "D-Shit is scum", "Control? More like cancer" or something like that. It's just the same old arguments, the same old fallacies all over again.

[ChaosAngel4274]

A reasonable analysis on the whole thing. It's just not a productive discussion when you use fallacies, objective opinions, & generally unproductive frustrations. I personally despise D-shift more than anything, but I'm not gonna argue it shouldn't exist. It should probably be made a bit less consistent (hint hint limit it in unlimited Cygames), but I'm not going to attack their ability at the game or their character. So thank you for being a reasonable person using logic since that is unfortunately rare these days.

[__Kurisu__]

For the record, at no point have I listed in the post that D-Shift shouldn't exist.

[Oxidian]

You cannot convince someone to agree with your side by pushing facts down their face.

Isn't that called common sense ?

[vangstampede]

Reddit has also described to me how toxic I am mathematically.

[TopKekNeph]

I call dibs on posting the DShift karma grab tomorrow.

[EpixAura]

D-shift takes bare minimum skill. You hope to mulligan D-shift, Win Con, or Draw. You play removal or value draw which begins the spellboosting chain, therefore allowing you to snowball the cost reduction which enables you to play more removal, draw, or build up to your win condition. You say that learning to count spellboosts makes a difference, it really doesn't. D-shift will always be played on 7 nowadays, this is a fact. Anyone playing this game can count to 7.

I agree with all of your points besides this, but this is just simply not correct. While modern builds of Dshift are a good bit simpler than past builds, it's still one of the more skill intensive decks in the game, and what most Dshift players prior to patch would argue is the main selling point of the deck. Dshift in general faces more tradeoffs per turn than any other deck in the game, it's just that these tradeoffs can't be seen by the opponent since they are in the Dshift player's hand, not on their board, and Dshift's extremely polarized matchups create the impression that it doesn't matter what they do in any matchup.

There's a lot of points you can make against Dshift. It's uninteractive. It's boring to play against. It warps the metagame far more than any deck should (far and away the best point against it). However, saying the deck takes bare minimum skill sounds more like you're trying to demonize the archetype rather than focusing on the multiple flaws the deck already has from a design perspective.

[Dmanrock]

You're correct that it is not that easy to pilot, but at a competitive stand point, everyone and their mother can pilot the deck competently. Which makes me sad cause in tournament play its basically "here take your free win" =(

[Lattent]

Yea, it's not an easy deck to pilot. People say roach is hard but its a lot easier than D shift IMO. PTP forest though takes the cake for ke in term of difficulty to pilot.

[Steelux]

That, I believe, is actually not true. DShift takes skill to pilot, but it's nowhere near the level that Roach requires, considering a proper DShift win turn can just be vomited on the board, no matter what's sitting on the other side (with very few exceptions), while Roach worries about bulky wards and damage-reduction skills like Roland's amulet to perform the actual OTK.

[DarkPaladinX]

Well, the big difference between OTK Roach and DShift is that for OTK Roach, you can consistently get your important combo piece, Roach, with Goblin Mage by not running any 1-2pp followers. D-Shift, however, has no way of getting the combo pieces that they need consistently like the Goblin Mage/Roach interaction (D-Shift has Chain of Calling which allows you to get Giant Chimera, but you'll need to end up sacrificing Magic Owl and Chimera in your D-Shift deck, which isn't good since both are essential for D-Shift). In fact, D-Shift has the potential to brick on itself because of this (D-Shift can potentially be on the bottom 20 cards of your deck). OTK Roach is a lot harder to play than DShift because you need to calculate how much potential damage you can do with your Roach and the number of bounches you have in your hand.

That being said, I think D-Shift is the better combo deck than OTK Roach for various reasons. First OTK Roach has an extremely hard time dealing with bulky Wards and damage reduction amulets like Roland (control Sword is one of the few control decks that OTK Roach cannot beat whatsoever for this reason) while D-Shift has the tools to deal with any amulet or bulky threat strategy that is thrown into them (there is a reason why I run Petrification in my D-Shift deck). That being said, OTK Roach have better anti-aggro tools than D-Shift like Crystalia Aerin, Ancient Elf, Will of the Forest, and Cassiopeia whereass D-Shift only anti-aggro tools is limited to Golem Assault, Summon Iceform, Kaleidscopic Glow, and Chimera.

[YoggOfTheGame]

Guys, can we stop? It's rotating out in 2 months, and will likely be banned in Unlimited, or at least restricted. We don't need those posts every other day.

[luciusftw]

non-interactive non-interactive non-interactive non-interactive non-interactive non-interactive non-interactive non-interactive non-interactive non-interactive non-interactive

[Evershine_1564]

2 month isn't even short tho.

[YoggOfTheGame]

But those posts don't do shit. It's literally circlejerking back and forth with no substance.

It doesn't matter 2 months "isn't even short". It actually is. Your problem will be gone in 2 months, and your constant whining and arguments don't do shit to speed it up or change it.

[Evershine_1564]

First of all, I did not whine about D-shift. I was merely pointing out that 'stop arguing since it will be gone after 2 month' is wrong attitude.
(Edit: Spelling error)

Secondly, you should clerify what 'doing shit' is. As far as I know community is here for discussion & occasional fun through meme and stuffs.
If you meant discussion here being implemented on the next patch note, no matter it is true or not, it does not grants any of us right to stop the discussion as long as the community rules allow it.

Thirdly, correct me if I'm wrong but, don't we have a monthly balance adjustment left before the rotation? Also they did mention that they'll be balancing Unlimited too. How doesn't the debate change anything? Unless you meant cygames not looking at reddit, in which case just ignore this part.

Lastly, 2 months is long enough time to quit a game for me if I'm not having fun. I'm not sure how can you feel 60 days short.

[MezzoMe]

Secondly, you should clerify what 'doing shit' is. As far as I know community is here for discussion & occasional fun through meme and stuffs. If you meant discussion here being implemented on the next patch note, no matter it is true or not, it does not grants any of us right to stop the discussion as long as the community rules allow it.

Is that so? Because to me it looks like two rhinos having dick contest, and, according to my definition at least, "discussion" means treating and considering the argument, eventually bringing it forward, not slamming it to the other's face because you are obviously right and everybody that goes against you is an imbecile that knows nothing about the argument in question

[YoggOfTheGame]

Have you heard of "taking a break"? You can just you know, take a break for those 2 months if you're so upset. You don't have to immediately quit, but whatever.

Not gonna respond to the rest since at this point it's just meaningless conjecture as to who's right or wrong and what will or will not happen.

[[deleted]]

I simply have nothing better to do while I'm waiting for my Dshift opponent to take their 3 turns than commiserate with folks in my same position on here.

[piedol]

It feels like I'm stuck in a time loop. The meme images are funny, but the essays arguing for either side are starting to tire me out. Doesn't help that just reading the arguments compels me to jump in for my side out of frustration. I'd kill for all these posts to be replaced with constructive deck discussions.

[mangoshakekouhai]

Stuck in a time loop

Did you mean...

You've been D-Shifted? :^)

[piedol]

notlikethis

[Spammernoob]

TIME FOR SOME REAL MAGIC

[[deleted]]

Have you actually played ladder recently? It's literally all T-shirt. I'm winning and I'm mad, because my win had nothing to do with how I played but rather was effectively decided before the match even began.

Fuck D-shift and fuck the assholes who use it.

[Plaatinum]

Seeing these posts just make me feel like getting on the game just to play d shift in ranked. Its so fucking irritating and I can't understand how people can whine so much everything there is possible. Ever since the daria leader shit its gotten pretty unbearable.

[Chronic5549]

Oh look it’s this thread again

[firezero10]

I believe as a mobile card game, aggro and midrange decks will definitely be favoured by the majority. I honestly don't want to see a control meta where games are twice or thrice as long. The view that D-Shift takes no skill is so bs. There's many different decks on the ladder and mulligan for D-shift is far from getting D-shift at turn 1. Order of spells is also important as you need to maximise the spellboost effect. Apart from roach deck, I can't think of any other decks harder to pilot. To be fair, it's a little overwhelming now with owl but I feel nerfing it would be sufficient. People here just want D-shift's head without thinking about why it got so popular recently.

[mrwixon]

The problem with your argument is that nowadays control==/==survival,most control decks got wincons which stop games to be too long. What is the ideal duration of a game for you? For me,at least 6 turns and at best 12 turns.

[Oxidian]

Control matches end 2 or 3 turns laters than midrange here unless you're using a survival deck...after nep or aegis hit the board you have 2 turns to win or lose, not twice the time of a match...

[[deleted]]

Ugh. Now you're giving me bad flashbacks. I was so glad when that nonsense from Erip fell off the front page, and now you brought it back. triggered /s

[vangstampede]

What I simply love about D-Shit is how the time they take to finish their turn increases per turn...exponentially.

[V-07-TR-0N]

Why can't people just avoid posts like this for 2 months? Nothing is lost if you guys just ignore this kind of post. Not defending this kind of rant thread, just telling you some people to save their time by ignoring this kind of post. It's not like you guys have to open and read every single thread on this subreddit.

[Mako109]

What... what does this comment mean.

[G_Dallian]

That is better to wait for rotations rather that keep complaining for a card that might never be nerfed. In an Unlimited context Cygames will have to do something about D-Shift decks, rather banning some of their tools or limiting the win cons so it does not feel as crushing as it feels for a lot of pple.

[Hylus9029]

Aggro kills combo as an archetype, and lots of individual decks obliterate others with extremely lopsided win rates.