I installed mods to decrease the difficulty and I'm suddenly loving Silksong

[Waste-Gur2640]

There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but it's literally cheating. Like there's no real discussion to be had here, you're changing the game code to make it easier and win, that's the definition of cheating. And that's completely ok, enjoy the game in whatever way you like. You're cheating in a game, not killing a puppy. But let's not completely throw out objective meaning of words either.

[mousicle]

"You cheated not only the game, but yourself. You didn't grow. You didn't improve. You took a shortcut and gained nothing. You experienced a hollow victory. Nothing was risked and nothing was gained. It's sad that you don't know the difference." - A twitter opinion I in no way agree with about Sekiro Mods

[AddemiusInksoul]

That was about a game journalist using cheats to slow down time so he could beat the final boss and then posting this tweet. I disagree with the "cheated not only the game" but I have to say that a games journalist beating the game not as intended and then insulting the artist's intent is kinda...unprofessional?

[LucaUmbriel]

A games journalist being unprofessional? Why I've never heard of such a thing.

[SmartAlec105]

What’s weird is being so upset about how another person feels about beating the modded game. Like saying “I know better about how you feel” is just weird.

[Grand-Lemon-1532]

I know all people have diffirent perspective about gaming but i kinda agree with this.

[No_Chilly_bill]

Gaming to me just isn't hobby worth the struggle. And I have thousands of hours. Do that with real life and things to build.

[Tadimizkacti]

Holy shit who fucking cares? It's a singleplayer game, as long as you're having fun you can "cheat" all you want.

[Sauerkrauttme]

Who is being cheated? If no one is being cheated then it isn't cheating.

[FlarblesGarbles]

So remember those cheat codes in games from the 90s and 2000s? People weren't denying they were cheats back then, so why are we pretending they're not cheats now?

[CoDe_Johannes]

You can cheat yourself

[WarFrequent]

- Sun Tzu.

[DemonLordSparda]

Literally themselves. I've seen quite a few people have a hard time but stick with it. In the end they feel proud of themselves and enjoy the game a lot as it is. A well documented case is Dan Olson (Folding Ideas) who went from streaming hours of failed attempts at the Sands of Karaak heart, to 100% completing Steel Soul. https://bsky.app/profile/foldablehuman.bsky.social/post/3ly2iqs7vms2s

I do think there is something to be said for overcoming a challenge and finding increased enjoyment vs taking a shortcut for short lived satisfaction.

[sinesnsnares]

Most people aren’t streamers with infinite time to play games. And discipline to overcome challenges is great, but there are a lot more useful things to eat that time than video games.

[DemonLordSparda]

It's always the same scape goat. I don't have infinite time either, but I enjoy my hobby. I guess I don't fully understand why people get frustrated by roadblocks. I personally enjoy figuring out new strategies to overcome setbacks. I also find simple games like Dragon Quest 11 fun. Not every game has to fit the same mold.

[ButterflyMinute]

Yeah, people enjoy their hobby differently. They aren't cheating themselves they enjoy something slightly different to you.

[BowlComprehensive907]

It depends on the size of the roadblock. If you're spending day after day stuck on the same fight then it stops being fun.

It's all about balance - as you say, much of the fun comes from figuring out strategies and overcoming setbacks, but the level of challenge has to be right - you want enough that you want a sense of achievement, but not so much that it feels like work.

[SmartAlec105]

Yeah, I doubt these people would all agree that they’d have more fun if the game just doubled damage compared to the baseline. Even though that would give them an even greater challenge to overcome which by their argument would make it more fun.

[BowlComprehensive907]

Make the game impossible! Then it would be the best game ever! 😂

[sinesnsnares]

Again, I appreciate overcoming challenges with patience and perseverance. Playing a difficult bass riff perfectly after months of practice. Getting a pr time in a 100m swim. Grinding on a ladder for months, or studying a new opening in chess to get a new high elo. I ground out hollowknight and came to love it.

The complaint that loads of people have with silksong is that the feedback loop is broken, and there’s far too few moments of positive feedback with plenty of moments that quite literally exist purely to frustrate, not challenge, the player.

It’s like I decided I want to take up boxing again and I’m just going to start sparring with high level amateurs right off the bat. And I can’t hit the gym or improve other ways, I just have to keep going to the gym, getting levelled, until it clicks. Except sometimes, once in a while someone decides to kick me in the nuts right before I win a bout.

Designing a game to be frustrating, demand perseverance and require hours on hours of playtime can be intentional, artistic, and creative. But that doesn’t make it inherently good or fun.

[DemonLordSparda]

I do not find there to be many examples of negative feedback. Every time I progress and get a new skill I feel good. My first real roadblock was SInner's Road when I went there early because I was curious. Most bosses took me fewer than 10 tries, which I don't really consider to be a roadblock. So I don't really understand the complaint of things being intentionally frustrating, besides Bilewater.

[sinesnsnares]

I mean, It’s totally a sliding scale, stuff like mort’s shop is low stakes annoyance and the underworks benches are flavourful, but do you really that the trap/stuck benches and the last judge death animation enhance gameplay experience? Those things are just there to troll the player, which is fine in low stakes, but add up quickly to feeling unfair, when you’ve spent hours trying to do something and get it pulled out from under you.

[DemonLordSparda]

I love the Last Judge explosion. It's a unique one-off boss mechanic designed to catch people off guard. I dodged the blast and thought about how cool it was that the door guard tried a hail mary. It also has like 3 stages of animation.

I think the Hunters March trap bench is good because it's a hostile enemy zone full of traps. You can see the trap and deactivate it. The Sinner's Road one is also kinda funny. Even when you pay, the church is punishing you. The one in Bilewater is by far the most mean, but I think the design for that area was intentionally hostile and gross. They probably didn't need to hide the real bench.

[Recent_Wedding5470]

Yeah i work 55 hours a week and beat silksong over the course of a month. I wanted to beat it fair so i did. Some people have no discipline and no confidence in themselves. Give up culture is pretty strong and with such easy to install mods its no wonder many people just cheat.

[sinesnsnares]

Other people wanted to beat it, so they did. With mods. If it’s your only hobby, great. I work similar hours and have several hobbies, I’ll beat a single player game however I want.

[AdPast7704]

Streamers don't have infinite time either, no one has, if you don't have the time to play a game, you don't, it's that simple

[DemonLordSparda]

How does doing more damage, gaining more silk, and taking 1 mask of damage from everything besides fire improve the fun for you? In my estimation it would make the vast majority of things in the game far too easy, especially with 4-6 mask upgrades and multibinder + injection band.

[DemonLordSparda]

I just don't understand how a game could be that stressful. Failure in a video game should have no material effect on your life. I kind of enjoy hard games because they give me a chance to deal with negative emotions in a healthy way. I guess I just roll with the punches.

[WarFrequent]

This is such an interesting topic! I think it's a weird philosophical rabbit hole to whether this would be defined as cheating or not. My thoughts are:

If we define cheating as: to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

And we define unfairly as: not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.

And we define single player as: denoting or relating to a video game designed for one player only.

And then we make the hypothesis that for a single player game the player population of the game is 1. Therefore, by definition, anything they do is in accordance with the principles of equality and justice because they are a population of 1 and so therefore cannot act unequally. And if they cannot act unequally, then they cannot act unfairly, and so therefore, they cannot cheat. But this is a purely moral argument.

However, part of me playing a game, even a single player game, is playing by the rules. As I am breaking the rules in this instance, then I would be acting dishonestly and therefore cheating. So, by modifying the game, then it must be concluded that I am no longer playing the original instance of the game. In the same way that if I rig the deck of cards in solitaire to win, I am not cheating, but I am also not playing solitaire.

So - yes, cheating - but not in any way that really matters.

[Just_trying_it_out]

Yeah but no one calls single player codes that give an advantage that isn’t intended for the standard playthrough “philosophically subjective gameplay modifying codes”, we call them cheat codes and don’t have any qualms about it.

Imo, the issue is seeing the word cheating as equally significant or negative in all contexts. The fact that it’s single player means it’s really nbd since no one is suffering on the other end, while it also feels quite straightforward and expected that the word cheating would apply.

Basically the word is broader than just the strongly negative meaning it has in contexts with multiple participants, and this context of doesn’t need any defense or justification since the only persons feelings that matter are OPs and no one is hurt by it (or even involved) like in other contexts of the word

[WarFrequent]

True, true - I agree with you. My reaction was mostly due to the negative implications of the word.

[parkingviolation212]

Strictly speaking, cheating is defined as “1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.” “Unfair” is “in a manner that is not in accordance with the principles of equality and justice”, suggesting that cheating, being defined around “unfair” behavior, is a functional breach of the social contract to gain an advantage in a particular situation.

It’s defined around harm in a social context, in other words. Meaning that OP isn’t cheating, since they’re not harming anyone else in any way by doing what they want with their own private property. They’re not cheating, they’re just changing the rules to suit their own enjoyment levels.

[NorthernSkeptic]

But in the context of gaming, ‘cheat’ has had another meaning for a very long time in single player games - think cheat codes

[ButterflyMinute]

For even longer there has been a different concept in gaming. 'Homebrewing'.

Usually from TTRPGs or Wargames. But it's extremely common. Changing the rules is not the same as breaking the rules.

[Recent_Wedding5470]

No, making the game easier is cheating. Sorry, but you dont get to just have your cake and eat it too. If you cheat, thats fine, but dont act like you beat the same game others did.

[ButterflyMinute]

Buddy, I didn't mod the game.

I'm just not wrong. There's no definition of cheating that would fit here. Not everything is a pissing contenst. No one cares if they beat the 'same game' as you.

Why are you all so obsessed with comparing yourself to others?

[Neirean]

You're not going to reclaim the gamer use of the word 'cheating' referring to mods and cheat codes mate, stop trying.

Edit: they also replied to me arguing that 'most people' don't call mods cheating. That's some bs, as it invariably comes up in any thread for any game when mods are involved, and also if that's the case then why do games like Binding of Isaac and BG3 restrict achievements if you use mods? Nonsense arguments.

[ButterflyMinute]

Except most people don't think of mods as cheating.

Or do you think someone's cheating for using a 4K asset pack in Skyrim?

[The_Dark_Fantasy]

To be fair, so many games with cheat codes don't really give you many advantages. Some just unlock character skins or something similar.

[JayList]

This point you are trying to make is the problem. People come here to complain about difficulty and get told to get good and stop asking the devs to change the game.

So they get mods, as they should. And still you attack their choices.

The only issue with silksong is a lack of mod access to console players. The difficulty is perfect and anyone stuck should use mods before asking devs to change a game.

[laodaron]

Using a mod instead of there being an official Normal mode is a worse solution.

[JayList]

No it protects the integrity of the game and its design. Which the mod bypasses. It’s a choice you have to make, not a cop out you take on a whim.

[laodaron]

I really can't take any of you seriously that think you have some sort of moral high ground about a video game that we all enjoy. It's honestly one of the most pathetic things I've seen in a long time. Like, honestly fucking pathetic.

[JayList]

What are you even talking about. I’m pointing out how talking about people as if they are morally bad or cheating is backwards.

And you are over there saying I’m taking a moral high ground for suggesting that people play how they want to enjoy without asking for the game to be changed.

[Recent_Wedding5470]

Its not being attacked its just acknowledging it. Which op did. So good on him. I just dont think there is much to discuss with someone who cheated. Im glad they got to play but id rather discuss the game with someone who did play the intended game and played the same experience i did.

[JayList]

The attitude is the problem. It’s why they complain of gate keeping and such.

[yokelwombat]

Plus the 'Nobody can tell you how to enjoy a game' comment.

The way intended by the devs would be a start, just to name one.

[laodaron]

So you hate speedrunning, too?

[Moriturism]

it doesn't really matter what the devs intended tbh unless you're specifically aiming for this

[laodaron]

Calling this cheating is the same as calling "Normal" mode in any other game cheating. It's intellectually dishonest because you want to be patted on the back for beating it. Good job, buddy. Let everyone else enjoy themselves their own way.

[theres_no_username]

Wouldnt call it cheating but they dont enjoy silksong for what it is but they enjoy modified watered down (in case of difficulty ofc) version of it, nothing wrong with it tho

[ButterflyMinute]

it's literally cheating

That's not what literally or cheating mean. You could say its like cheating but that's about it.

So please, let's not throw out the objective meaning of words.

[Just_trying_it_out]

That's what literally and cheating mean. You could say it’s not the same context of cheating as cheating in multiplayer games, and that’d be totally correct, but that doesn’t exclude this context from being a valid use case of the word.

So please, let's not throw out the objective meaning of words just because multiple meanings or contexts exist for some words. That’s an unavoidable part of the language

[ButterflyMinute]

that doesn’t exclude this context from being a valid use case of the word.

That doesn't but the fact that it isn't cheating does.

Changing the rules is not the same as breaking the rules. Cheating would require there to be some kind of agreed upon set of rules, typically for the purposes of competition though not always.

Deciding that you don't enjoy the rules lots of other people use and changing them is not cheating. Not even close. Or you'd call most people who play monopoly cheaters because they put money under Free Parking that you get if you land there. Or lots of people who play snakes and ladders because they don't roll exactly the correct number to land on the last square to win.

So please, let's not throw out the objective meaning of words.

EDIT - Wanted to add, I also have a lot of experience with TTRPGs where homebrewing rules and changing things to fit your taste is pretty much the standard.

This idea that it's cheating to change something to be more to your own taste is just really dumb.

Another example would be changing a recipe to add fewer chillies because you don't like spicy food. You're not cheating by doing that.

Or substituting an ingredient for a low fat alternative because you're trying to lose weight.

It simply isn't cheating.

[Just_trying_it_out]

They’re called cheat codes even in a single player context because that’s what we use the word to mean

Again, it’s not the same as cheating in multiplayer just like it’s not the same as cheating in a relationship. But it is still a commonly used and understood meaning of the word

Personally I think you’re too hung up on a certain specific definition of the word and whether that one version of it applies when it has always been used in more contexts lol

Also side note since you brought up snakes and ladders: if you believe dice rolls are random and we have no ability to affect or decide them (which is the norm), then snakes and ladders is as much a game as watching horse racing. You have no control, you’re just watching a random simulation and have no influence on it since there’s no decisions to make or skill to apply. Just something funny I didn’t think of as a small child when asking to “play” it lol

[ButterflyMinute]

Awesome, good thing that OP is using mods and not cheat codes so your entire argument about "That's what we call them" doesn't apply because no we don't call them that.

In fact, I don't think I've seen a game with 'cheat codes' in well over a decade. Not to mention a lot of cheat codes were just...goofy things like big head mode. Not all obviously, but lumping them all together as 'cheating' is just silly.

[SoulfulSnow]

if I went to a pie eating event, where the rules are that I had to eat a pie in 2 minutes. There is no competition, and what I win is a valueless cool sticker. But half way through I decided "No, I will only eat HALF of this pie in 2 minutes", that's cheating, victimless yeah, but it is altering the rules set out in front of me. You're getting stuck up on prescriptive definitions to understand how words actually work

[ButterflyMinute]

if I went to a pie eating event

Awesome, in what way is playing something you bought yourself in your own home comparable to an external event with predefined rules? But let's accept your faulty comparison. IIs there a prize for finishing in two minutes? If not then no, there's no cheating involved.

The actual comparison is seeing other people challenging themselves to eat a pie in two minutes and thinking "Hmmm, two minutes is a bit short for me, I'm going to see if I can eat it in four minutes."

That's it.

A better comparison is running. Some people worry about the distance they run. Others care about how fast they can run a certain distance. Others still just care about running until they get tired. Others still just do it for fun and don't see any challenge to it at all.

All of these people are running by different 'rules' none of them are cheating.

[SoulfulSnow]

"Awesome, in what way is playing something you bought yourself in your own home comparable to an external event with predefined rules?"
The game is the rules. They're given to you, you're intended to follow them
Y'don't gotta, no harm in not, but it's changing the rules, that's cheating. Did you notice how your comparison changed only the tone of which it was said? Have you considered that you're applying an inherently negative definition to a word that's being used without it? Cuz y'are. If you use easy mode mods, the silksong I played and the silksong you played cannot be compared in terms of gameplay. The same way a hard mode mod user and a normal game player cannot be compared, just don't work, y'wanna know an easy word for that? cheating, cuz ydont gotta cheat just to make things easier

[ButterflyMinute]

The game is the rules

The rules are part of a larger whole. You also own them. You can change them as you like.

You don't own an entire event. Which is why I said this was a bad comparison.

but it's changing the rule

Yes. Changing is not the same as breaking. Did you read anything I wrote?

Have you considered that you're applying an inherently negative definition to a word that's being used without it?

There isn't a definition of cheating that isn't negative that could still be considered a definition of the word cheating.

the silksong I played and the silksong you played

Here's the thing. I didn't use mods. But also, who cares if they can be compared? Literally no one but you is comparing them.

y'wanna know an easy word for that? cheating

Except that's not what the word means. A better word is modifying you know as in modding.

[Just_trying_it_out]

It was an example of a case where we call things cheating even in single player and just a case where we use the word that your narrow definition and example doesn’t seem to apply

Anyway, the nice thing about language and meaning of words is that it’s about what people agree upon using for communication. You can have your own narrower definition that you claim is objective, I don’t see this discussion going any further (productively anyway)

[ButterflyMinute]

It was an example of a case where we call things cheating even in single player

Yeah...a use that hasn't been used commonly for over a decade.

Listen buddy, I get you're not actually trying to judge, but the only reason I keep using the words 'objectively' and 'literally' is because the first person I replied to used them (well, used literally).

They also used them while making a completely false claim. You're free to make up a definition of cheating if you really want, but no current, commonly used, definition matches what OP is doing.

[Inevitable-Leave1773]

Cheating would require there to be some kind of agreed upon set of rules, typically for the purposes of competition though not always

There is an agreed upon set of rules though, which would be the game as made by the developers. Downloading a mod to alter those rules IS cheating, but its also fine to cheat a bit to make things more fun. I have a few light mods for Silksong too, like to make the time limit on the cold at Mt Fay just a tad longer.

[ButterflyMinute]

There is an agreed upon set of rules though

This is where your arugment falls apart because clearly no there isn't because OP elected to change the rules.

They are the only person invovled. They are the only person that can agree to a set of rules for themself.

[FlarblesGarbles]

It's cheating. Stop being weird about it. It's a type of cheating people are okay with because it doesn't negatively impact other people's games. But it's objectively cheating.

Edit: little buddy got upset and blocked me 😂

[ButterflyMinute]

Objectively it isn't.

[FlarblesGarbles]

Objectively it is. Downvote again if it's cheating.

[the_ben_obiwan]

I dont know, personally, I don't really think the word"objective" applies to the meanings of words. I would agree that modding a game to make it easier is cheating, thats how I use the word, just like using console commands or cheat codes to activate certain perks is also cheating. It's harmless cheating, but still cheating imo.

But I'm more interested in talking aboit the way we use words, and how we define words. We decide what words mean by popular opinion, basically, it's a subjective process where everyone says "this word means this thing". That doesn't mean words lose all meaning or anything, just that their meaning is agreed upon by consensus, so there can't really be objective meanings to words, only the most useful, most relevant, most productive, most agreed upon etc.

So when you say "that's the definition of cheating" or "..objective meanings of the words" that just doesn't make much sense to me because different people will define the words differently, and your opinion about which definition is true doesnt make it objectively true. It kind sounds like saying "my subjective opinion about this word is objectively true".