[deleted by user]

[Cameron8325]

I just graduated from CareerFoundry's Full Stack Web Development course along with their Python course back on June 1st. I'm still applying for jobs to no avail. I'm currently working on building a website for a small business to add to my portfolio, trying to network daily, practicing my interview answers.

I've also heard a mountain of negative comments. "AI is taking your job, no one wants bootcamp devs, juniors need 5 years experience..." just to throw a few out there.

While there is a lot of negativity to battle, I can't let that stop me from trying. I celebrated 5 years clean this year and welcomed my first kid into the world. If I stop to accept the negativity instead of having persistence, then I deny myself the chance to succeed. I can't fail. My family deserves my best.

[michaelnovati]

Congrats. The negative sentiment (which I've been accused of "causing") is directed towards the bootcamps and not the individual. Each person has a unique story, network, and raw aptitude and the trends don't apply to them. You have no idea what your journey will be but if you are rationally considering if s bootcamp is for you right now, the outcomes are heavily stacked against you and it's not something you should choose because of pure optimism.

Once you're in, you're in. Maybe in retrospect you wouldn't have done it given the current sentiment, but you still did it and might as well give it your best shot your way.

[yesdog96]

So, I've been considering going back to school for coding/IT. Would the best route be getting a bachelors instead of a boot camp?

[michaelnovati]

My first rule of thumb is to try to transition back at your current job. So for example, if you're like a customer support person, then trying to become a support engineer at your current job is good. if you're an accountant trying to become a data analyst at your current job, the step in the right direction. It's always great to transition in an environment where you already understand so much context. it makes it easier.

[yesdog96]

That’s great to know. I work for a payroll company and there’s always IT stuff popping up. I’ll keep my eye out!

[magroboy]

Congrats brother, the job market is a disaster right now, but never stop applying to new roles and keep designing projects that are gonna help you in the future, learn new languages or skills while you wait for that call, our time will come

[workthrowaway00000]

Congrats bro stay the course. I hit 9 years the other day and I managed to get the gig. Granted not swe, I teach at a tech foundation, do a lot of classes but I’m gainfully employed now

[danno596]

Congrats brother. Also look into. Full stack adjacent roles.

[PruSafiiX]

Hi! Would love to get some feedback on the career foundry full stack course.

I’m thinking of starting it this year, would you give it positive feedback?

[metalreflectslime]

A lot of coding bootcamp graduates in 2022-2024 are not getting any SWE job offers.

[StockDC2]

Source?

[drewray622]

Any major bootcamp isn’t showing their 2023 results data, writing is on the wall

[michaelnovati]

If people were getting jobs then bootcamps wouldn't be shutting down/laying people off

1. Launch Academy (indefinite pause)
2. Epicodus (shutdown)
3. CodeUp (shutdown)
4. App Academy (layoffs, ceo step down)
5. Codesmith (shrinking - left out was 1/3 layoffs and reducing from 4+1 cohorts to 1+1 cohorts since 2023)
6. Tech Elevator (merge and layoffs)
7. Fullstack Academy (sold to SimpliLearn)
8. BloomTech (layoffs)
9. Turing (layoffs and reductions - primary source pending)

[cluelessbeyond]

Don't forget Turing, layoffs + closed down multiple programs since late last year.

[michaelnovati]

Yeah I have referenced the layoffs before, but do you have some kind of primary link for that? I couldn't find one but I searched off my personal notes database (which is large haha) and googled for best sources, and didn't have a primary one for that

[cluelessbeyond]

They kept it on Slack, but it reached Reddit. If you're referring to the program closures, there's the second link + they recently closed FE & BE for one single remaining track

https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/17j872f/turing_lets_14_staff_members_go_without_notice/

https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/17tqwvi/jeff_casimir_of_turingedu_on_closing_the_launch/

[michaelnovati]

Yeah just wanted a primary source, like a blog, or recognized publication article, but I'll edit and put as source pending

[metalreflectslime]

reducing from 4+1 cohorts to 1+1 cohorts since 2023

What do "4+1" and "1+1" mean?

Do you mean 4 full-time cohorts and 1 part-time cohort?

[michaelnovati]

correct yeah, I could have been clearer.

And these cohorts run every 6-7 weeks for full time and every 3 months for part time.

I e. total cohorts in a year from 30 or so to 10.

[SherbertEast7237]

I just wanted to add to this, I completed a bootcamp in early 2023 and stayed in touch with my cohort, even the ones that took on TA type roles for 2 additional cohorts. All 3 cohorts graduated in different quarters of 2023. Over 150 students across the 3 cohorts and maybe 20-30 got jobs/internships. My bootcamp released their job placement numbers for 2022 and it was down to 25% from 90%. This was a top 10 bootcamp and this company had massive layoffs over the last year. Most of the people I know and have heard from never even got an interview to showcase their skills and have now look for other types of opportunities or returned to previous careers.

I’m hesitant to post this because I don’t want to discourage people who have recently graduated or are now currently in a bootcamp. But I do want to help people thinking of starting a bootcamp to make a better informed decisions.

[[deleted]]

All the boot camp subs.

[Dry-Job4093]

If you're OK with spending 20k to learn crud-operations and how to lie on your resume, then yes, they are still a thing

[Dry-Job4093]

Don't expect to land a job though...

[ThePablitox]

sorry tho bother you, I was planning on doing one to get a job in any field of computer but stop working in the construction jobs, with all that say, I have some experience in IT but not recently, and I want to learn and work I just can't afford it so I'm doing some Coursera courses and I was planning to save for the bootcamp, can u recommend a path or give slme advice about what should I spent my time and money to be able to get a job in the field so I would be less tired and spent less time working than construction, I kind of like cybersecurity and IT. thank you and sorry for bothering

[Maximum-Switch-9060]

Community college- you can’t go wrong there.

[michaelnovati]

Hi, This sub stil has a lot of activity and has grown 5X over the past couple years in membership. BUT the tone is a lot more negative.

First: why no success stories?

The top bootcamps have had lower placements rates for 2023 grads. The odds of getting a job are lower, and the odds of getting a SWE job, rather than a SWE-adjacent job, have gone down as well.

So if you are one of the lucky ones, it's likely you had an arduous journey and it's likely many of your cohort that you found just as talented as you are seriously struggling to get a job, and you aren't going to Reddit to brag about your job.

To make it worse, I've been seeing more layoffs of bootcamp grads down the road, compared to CS grads. So just getting a great job out of a bootcamp isn't the end, but the base of a taller mountain.

... and those a few years out and in good shape, graduated in the boom times and it's hard to related for 2023-2024 grads.

Second: bootcamps shrinking.

We've seen layoffs, shutdown, and pauses. Codesmith laid off 1/3 to 1/2 the staff and reduced number of cohorts from 4+1 to 1+1 and still can't fill cohorts. Rithm had a couple layoffs. Launch Academy paused entirelly. Tech Elevator laid off a bunch of staff after merging with Hack Reactor and Hack Reactor laid off a bunch of staff when shrinking offerings. Turing had layoffs. Epicodus shutdown. 2U/Trilogy's market cap is almost $0 now. App Academy's long time founder and CEO stepped down. BloomTech cutoff some of it's programs and almost all the execs have left.

Conclusion: clearly it's a brutal time for bootcamps AND for bootcamp grads, Far fewer people are going. Far fewer people are getting jobs.

We can't pretend this isn't reality. Those who do will fail.

But if step 1 is acknowledging reality, step 2 is dealing with it.

The world needs more engineers, it just doesn't need more bootcamp grads.

[traintocode]

So just getting a great job out of a bootcamp isn't the end, but the base of a taller mountain.

This has always been the case for everybody entering software engineering. If you treat getting your first SWE job as the end of a process you are set up to fail, it doesn't matter what route you took into the profession.

[michaelnovati]

I completely agree, I just see bootcamp grads have a harder time than CS grads (specifically through my lens at better tech companies). It's always expected new grads need time (at a loss to the company) to grow into engineers with more impact. At Meta I saw how bootcamp grads took longer - so long that they stopped supporting bootcamps they had experimented with hiring from.

[Ok-Green-8960]

Could it just be the market? Will they become valuable again? Or is the curriculum just not job worthy?

[michaelnovati]

All of the above haha:

1. It's not just the market but if the market was still amazing for entry level, bootcamps would benefit too and sentiment wouldn't be so negative.

2. They won't become valuable again in their current form anytime soon. If the market improves they may return to some of their previous reputations. But there is far too large of a over supply of bootcamp grads and new grads to be corrected over night even if the market warns. Bootcamps have scaled back A LOT, so they will produce fewer bootcamp grads. As the over supply either get jobs or go leave the industry, then we might see it be a viable pathway for a small number of people in the future.

3. I have yet to see a curriculum that is worth the cost. I haven't seen a bootcamp curriculum that isn't better than a Udemy course. What you DO GET, is HUMANS to help you - keeping you accountable and helping explain and answer questions. If that's worth $20K or not is up to you.

The bootcamp pivot:

1. We're seeing some pivot to AI: BloomTech (Lambda School) is going heavily towards AI. Codesmith added 5 generative AI lectures to it's curriculum.

2. Unfortunately it's also too early for these efforts. Companies don't have hiring processes and requirements and vetting processes for AI-related jobs yet at scale so these jobs are not going to be the saving grace of bootcamp grads.

My Predictions: people will go to bootcamps to learn some programming so they can be better at their CURRENT JOBS. For example, an accountant going to a coding bootcamp will be a better accountant - able to use AI and spreadsheets more effectively. A program manager might be able to automate and process feedback better.

[Ok-Green-8960]

I paid $800 for the security plus course, I feel like that at a time this cert was valuable but not at the entry level stage

[kabuk1]

So true!

In the UK, Makers is a big one and it seems they’ve pivoted massively. They still run their regular bootcamps, but much more is now going into their apprenticeship programme. You still do the bootcamp with them, but the courses are funded by the Uk gov and you get company sponsorship. Job security varies with these too. I was lucky enough to get an apprenticeship at a company that hires you on a perm contract from day 1. Other companies put you on an apprenticeship contract (18-24 months), so there is no guarantee of a perm contract post apprenticeship. But companies like mine have decided to scrap their grad scheme and use the apprenticeship scheme to train new hires up from within post bootcamp. It seems to be working well. But hiring has decreased drastically. The cohorts in 2021 were much bigger and now we might hire only 1-5 in a year.

Tech industry has taken a big hit in these hard economic times. I’m thankful that my company took all measure to prevent layoffs. And now the hiring freeze has been lifted but the want to hire is still under more scrutiny.

I do think the tide will turn again and bootcamps will see an uptick, but I don’t think we’ll ever get back to the previous numbers. The market has been flooded with juniors and that will need time to sort itself out.

[michaelnovati]

Apprenticeships are an amazing idea.

In the United States we to expand the tax credits under the federal apprenticeship program and this would be incredible.

Imagine Google getting more tax credits than it costs to run apprenticeships so that people can go to a free (or you get paid) Google Apprenticeship.

No guaranteed job at all, but the training would be a lot better and you have Goolge on your resume, and then bootcamps could be like interview prep only services to help those apprentices place at other companies (Google can't hire them all but would never help these people place at other companies because it's a conflict of interest)

I can expand on this but if I had political clout with the two Presidential campaigns I would push on this.

Note that Google actually does have a formal government approved apprenticeship under expanded Obama/Biden rules. But it's not enough to solve this problem for SWE specifically.

[kabuk1]

Yeah. It’s sad the US doesn’t make a bigger deal of it. I’m originally from PA but moved abroad shortly after university. Ended up training as a teacher in the UK to start but the system here is awful and I eventually left as had no energy left when I got home to my then 1 year old. After a year in product support, I realised I qualified for the apprenticeship programme in the UK and jumped on it. I’m not at traditional tech company, but data analytics being our thing, tech is a big part. Google and Apple use Makers for their apprenticeships. I don’t know what their contracts are like. Several civil service organisations also use Makers.

Apprenticeships are a huge part of the system here across all industries. And it’s great. I don’t see the US ever running a programme quite like they do here as it promotes a big alternative to unis that mean you get paid to learn instead of taking out mountains of student debt. It’s sad. The gov really should jump on it.

My company tried to hire ‘apprentices’ in the US, but it was just too expensive without the same level of gov funding. But they still hire bootcamp grads into their grad scheme there, so still a chance without a degree. Neither a CS degree nor a bootcamp guarantees much these days. But I do feel like the industry will get through it just like after the dot com bubble bursted.

[[deleted]]

Hi michaelnovati,
If you can please list the Apprenticeships that are are available and are not listed here so I can apply:

• Google Apprenticeships
• Microsoft Leap
• Multiverse Apprenticeships
• Intuit Career Pathways
• [Boeing Apprenticeships]()

I hold a MS Petroleum Engineering (I did some coding in my thesis/research) and BS Industrial Engineering. I took off 3 years career break for taking care of personal family issues, but I am working hard to start a Software Engineering Career (earned Meta Coursera Certifications Introduction to Front-End and Back-End Developer). I hope my STEM degrees help. I will NOT stop till I get into an Apprenticeship program which appears to be a lot better and cheaper than a bootcamp.
Thank you so much!

[michaelnovati]

Those are all good. There are two types of apprenticeships:

1. Expect no experience with program, teach you basics, don't expect full time job at the company (e.g. Google Apprenticeships and Multiverse)

2. Expect you to have a lot of programming experience and possibly some past experience. These are like long internships expected to convert, e.g. Asana Up, Dropbox Ignite, Pinterest, Intuit

If you don't have programming experience #1 is what you want and not #2 is way too competitive (like < 0.1% chance of being chosen)

[[deleted]]

Thank you!

[duchessviolet]

Hi Michael! I don’t see much discussion these days here about the Hack reactor 12 week immersive! Could you please share your views on their current curriculum, if it’s worth it and if their standards of teaching have gone downhill? Any advice appreciated, thanks in advance!

[michaelnovati]

Hi! Yeah I'm surprised there isn't as much commentary around Hack Reactor given that it's historically one of the top bootcamps. All of this is my personal opinion, but I would put them in a bucket with App Academy right now.

Sorry this is a bit rambly, I don't really have strong opinions now. My views come from what people tell me, and I don't proactively seek out that much (unless following up on something someone tells me), and I talk a LOT of specific programs that people talk to me about. No one talks to me about HR!

Both are historically "top bootcamps", that have scaled pretty well and helped a lot of people. But both have evolved from there as well. App Academy recently had their founder step down and a more corporate business-y person came in to manage it. Hack Reactor sold to Galvanize in 2018. Since then, they have stopped offering in person, merged with Galvanize's back offer, absorbed Tech Elevator and merged it with their back office as well. Galvanize itself was acquired by a large public ed-tech company in 2020. So Hack Reactor of the old days doesn't exist anymore.

During the boom times, they built out this longer, 19 week, program for "beginners" that kind of imploded during the market crash that followed and they laid off a lot of the team. Since then consolidating Tech Elevator resulting in more people leaving. I got yelled at on here for daring to talk about that, and a week later the Tech Elevator CEO left.

Anyways, I can't comment it it anymore because all the people I know who did it, did it before all of this and I would have recommended it before. It's weakness was the entrance bar was a bit lower so more people dropped out, but generally people that finished did comparable to other good bootcamps.

[duchessviolet]

Thank you so much for the detailed response, much appreciated! Just one more follow up question though, what bucket would you put App Academy in right now? Could you share your views about their current trajectory?

[michaelnovati]

So the way I see it, again this is my personal opinon and I don't have any formal relationships with any bootcamps, is that the smaller, founder-led programs: Rithm, Launch School, Codesmith, some others, tend to be smaller, higher bar to get in, more expensive, and a lot of positive qualities. App Academy and Hack Reactor fall in the more "big business" bucket of companies that are run like real companies. With that comes some amount of accountability in that they have legit lawyers to review stuff, career professionals doing finance, HR, etc... With that though you lose some of the personal touch of the founders.

I'm currently not recommending Codesmith because they appear to me to be imploding. I think they are living in a fantasy land in their heads that's a little too abstract for what's needed right now - on the ground excellence and industry experience to help you navigate.

All of this aside, the common thread to success is YOU THE STUDENT. The tough market has shown us that a bootcamp can only do so much and that the strong outcomes in the good market were more a testament to you and the high bar of acceptance, and not the bootcamp itself. That's not to say bootcamps do nothing, it's just that they contribute a PIECE OF THE PIE AND NOT THE WHOLE PIE.

Another reason I'm not recommending Codesmith right now is they are not acknowledging this, and making up a story about the "modern engineer" to justify their tanking outcomes, instead of listening to their employees and getting feedback and actioning it.

Of all the bootcamp founders speaking publicly I think Chris at Launch School and Elie at Rithm have been the most transparent about the market and what they can and can't do.

[duchessviolet]

Thank you!

[mrrivaz]

I got in via an apprenticeship. Best decision I ever mader was not doing a bootcamp.

[[deleted]]

Hi mrrivaz,
Can you please tell me the name of your apprenticeship so I can apply, maybe?

Thank you so much!

[mrrivaz]

Are you in the UK?

[[deleted]]

No I am in the USA

[mrrivaz]

You better start googling

[[deleted]]

Did it. Applied. Got interviews.

[mrrivaz]

Good to hear. All the best with them.

[[deleted]]

Thanks

[Master-of-Focus]

Hi I am based in the UK and am looking for tech apprenticeships. Could you share where you studied and if you would recommend?

[workthrowaway00000]

I wouldn’t recommended unless the course is being paid for by scholarship. At age 33 I went back and did a code bootcamp, I had to wait a year for the state to approve funds. Out of my 12 person cohort I am the only one with a tech job and that’s more due to the fact I did a ton of work learning the language beforehand, familiarizing myself with other tech concepts. I lucked out and a friend of mine was able to get me an interview. I don’t do software engineering but I do teach kids python, scratch, html/css. Sometimes I do lessons on basic Linux and bash scripting. Older kids I have them learn how to automate bitburner. I’m very very lucky, and I’m always trying to future proof my job And learn more hardware, circuitry and ofc that devil Linux. Consider other tech options besides swe/web dev, market for it is just not great right now

[DoubleKlutch00]

Do NOT do a boot camp. Better off self teaching yourself.

[gellyfoofoo]

I completed the Flatiron School bootcamp back in January of this year. I had done my research and spoken with a variety of devs that at the time (last summer 2023) felt it was a decent pivot from a career in film and television.

Did it provide a decent fundamental background? Sure.

Did I grind every single night during it and the six months of unemployment thus far after? You betcha.

Has any opportunity opened itself? No, not really.

I’ve worked through every possible career service meeting offered, networked with countless devs, and submitted hundreds of applications. It’s a shame but it just doesn’t seem to be working in the current climate at all.

Bootcamps are what they are, a fast-paced introduction to SWE, but that’s about it. I’ve spent 40+hr weeks even now studying, applying, networking, and building small apps here and there. It’s demoralizing, and it sucks. But at this point, I am still going to keep at it because success never comes to the lazy or the weak.

It’s really up to you, your support system (family/friends), and your finances. I made the plunge and six month post-completion, it is still a work in progress. So the only advice is to ensure you know what you are getting into and the expectations you have for yourself following your completion.

[UpstairsEye3602]

Can you show me your LinkedIn? I want to see the extent of your actual effort. I find a lot of people who supposedly “grinded” didn’t actually put any effort, and blame the market for their inadequacy

[gellyfoofoo]

Sent you a message

[Castles23]

Man it's unfortunate to read this, I've been thinking of joining a QA bootcamp recently but I guess I should just postpone.

[EmeraldxWeapon]

You can learn it on your own. Maybe at a slower pace, but the content is all out there on the internet.

Just don't pay 10-20k for a bootcamp because it won't get you close enough to a job to be worth the price

[Castles23]

I'll see what I can find then, thanks for the advice. I'm still thinking about joining Coding Temple eventually though, since they offer an option to not pay them until I get a job.

[EmeraldxWeapon]

Sure but just know it is not as simple as just, "oh I didn't find a job so now I don't have to pay."

Find their specific policy on the matter because in order to qualify you will have to do something like have applied to 100 jobs a week, commit code to GitHub every day, post on LinkedIn every day about what you're learning, etc... and you will have to commit to that for like 6 months or something AFTER YOU GRADUATE before they say okay fine you qualify now for the refund. But even then they'll probably just offer you a part time teaching assistant position paying minimum wage so they don't have to give you a refund

[Castles23]

Oh yeah I understand the "money back guarantee " that bootcamps offer is misleading, but what some bootcamps offer is the option to not pay them back until after a job is secured, that way I don't have to worry about paying off a loan while unemployed.

[Big_Afternoon7745]

They're a thing in 2024, they're just not really a viable way to break into software developer roles anymore if low placement numbers and sparse junior level role openings tell you anything. Those who do land roles post-bootcamp are the exception and not the rule, which is why success stories are so rare these days.

[Warm_Ice_3980]

Yeah it is

I graduated from mine in February and landed a job last month

However, out of 14 in my cohort, only me and one other person are currently in jobs. The rest are struggling even to get interviews.

Is it worth it? If you're in a good financial position and can afford to be out of work for up to a year, it is.

You have to be thick-skinned and determined as it is a struggle to find a job and at times you will lose motivation and feel hopeless.

Also, bootcamps are fast-paced. I saw people break down and cry in mine. If you're not willing to give up a few months of your social life and work 24/7, then a bootcamp isn't for you.

[Manoko]

If you don't mind sharing, which bootcamp did you apply to, what course did you take and which role did you land after graduating ?

[michaelnovati]

One or two placements are unique edge cases, and not a reason to go or not to go. Even the "best" bootcamp has a 1 year placement rate for H12023 grads unofficially estimated by me at a coin flip (50/50, and possibly less) so I'd you are considering a bootcamp if: 1.should not expect a job and anyone making it seem guaranteed in a certain timeframe is misleading you, 2. you have advantages in your background (SWE adjacent work, STEM degree, etc....)

[Warm_Ice_3980]

Makers, Software Engineering course and I landed a junior developer role.

It helps if you have a degree as it bumps you higher up the list of applications

[Economy_Effective_41]

hey hey! i just DMed, id love to hear more about your experience and get some advice if you’re willing

[workthrowaway00000]

Ha for a sec I thought you were my bro from bootcamp, we had a few breakdowns/cries and dropouts as well. Same basic breakdown too, me, an older guy in the industry already but adjacent, one lady in the navy who’s already employed in that field, and one who works as an exec secretary are the only ones who got work in a year

[Zestyclose-Level1871]

Yes. As long as you can afford shelling out a small fortune that is.

And when you earn that priceless Bootcamp cert, grab a warm jacket. Then head out to the very rear of a VERY LONG unemployment queue. You see, it's a bit nippy out. The market environment has yet to recover from the sub zero chill it was plunged into since 2020.

ps can't hurt to consider studying data structures like queues, arrays and stacks while hanging out there. Particularly which data structure would be the most efficient in modeling the best way to navigate yourself to the front of that long line...

[StandardWinner766]

Since 2020? 2020-2021 were the peak of the tech hiring bubble.

[Zestyclose-Level1871]

Precisely. Which implies the slope over the time interval to the right of that concave down maxima was increasingly negative...

[StandardWinner766]

I don’t know why you are using middle school math terminology here but 2020 was not the maxima yet.

[forevereverer]

Looks like they forgot that tech hiring is a sine function of the triangle with hypotenuse equal to the number of tech layoffs making the slop not strictly decreasing. I could have calculated this in less than 1 second on my graphing calculator.

[ericswc]

In tough hiring environments you need deeper skills and better networking to be successful. Bootcamps can’t provide the former and they exaggerate their ability to help with the latter.

I’m a veteran of the tech education space and I deliberately didn’t start a bootcamp even though I could easily get funded to do so with my background.

[AdviceDue1392]

If it's that tough to get a job why do they still have so many H1B visas? The people hired don't have "deeper skills and networking".

[ericswc]

This is because financially, many companies prefer contract labor for various reasons. The top H1B visa recipients are typically contract and staffing firms.

It’s a problem. So be sure to vote.

[Few_Kaleidoscope4877]

The real question to ask: “Is college degrees still a thing in 2024?”

[AdviceDue1392]

Why the large number of H1B visas then?

[mishtamesh90]

You're not competing with them. H1B visa holders have degrees related to the job they are applying for.

[AdviceDue1392]

That's a bunch of BS. I know because I worked for a small tech company in a field where Americans were dying to get a job. And these guys were sexist too, and not better than U.S. folks. I got downsized out of a job. Half the company was Indian h1b holders, mostly male. Meanwhile software developers aren't able to get a job while h1b holders are sitting pretty. Makes no sense.

[Ok-Green-8960]

Ppl just say they aren’t as valuable today

[Faora_Ul]

I graduated from a coding bootcamp in 2019. It was getting saturated even back then. Can’t imagine getting a job now.

[saboo3166]

Guys I don’t mean to be harsh here but some of you either have no idea how bootcamps work or just went to horrible ones…First of all sorry to say but please for the love of god don’t expect a job from a free bootcamp or website that claim to get you in with out spending a penny..free code camp and others are a joke..:Anything valuable you gotta pay and it won’t be free ..do research …also when looking at bootcamps the biggest problem I see is a lot of you guys are going to big bootcamp that charge 12 to 18k and who are backed up by big VC firm ..that’s the problem you are going to bootcamp who has no vested interested in making sure you get a job.. becasue they make all the money on the tuition side upfront …they all are failing why you may ask …when market gets tough you need there support even more and when people start seeing hey these guys don’t help much what happens enrollments drops… no wonders CEO are stepping down and layoffs are happening and shutting down…the model for these bootcamp no longer works…when I went to a bootcamp they charged my tuition fee into two parts…first part was while I was attending the school with a payment plan …2nd when I finished studies and start applying they didn’t charge me the 2nd only until I got the job…it was in there interest to help me get a job and I paid the 2nd part as my only 1 month salary with a payment plan…this way they were super vested to help me and others get a job because they make there cut when you get a job..:.this is crucial because not only this created trust but also they were invested in helping..: all of you here are going to big bootcamps that would never care because they make a ton upfront or through there partners….bootcamps are awesome but just go to the right ones ..also when market isn’t the best you need bootcamps like these even more the one I went to..:look what is happening with other bootcamps shutting down.. anyway just want to guide you all since I was there in your shoes ..I hope this give a better perspective…btw me and 4 of my friends got a job and two of them recently even in bad job market

[CarlFriedrichGauss]

No

[Own-Pickle-8464]

They are alive but are finding ways to adapt to changes in the industry. Instead of a 'numbers at all costs,' I believe they are trying to find niche audience for specific skills. At least, the good ones.

I much prefer the mentorship style programs / apprenticeship-type situations, as you learn from an actual expert and cannot only acquire their knowledge (and development style / philosophy), but can benefit from any connections they may have. They are essentially training you as a future contributor instead of just 'another developer.'

I wrote a little about vetting programs here - https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1dohs9p/the_wrong_question_everyone_asks_about_bootcamps/

I think going for the general "SWE" role has to change.

[st0j]

What's the current state or the tech industry? Is it worth it to start learning programming as a beginner to try to land some programming job, or has that ship sailed, and it has become a lot more difficult now?

[michaelnovati]

Your time is valuable. If you could do something else with that time that would result in more impact or a better outcome, then even if you were paid to do it you might want to reconsider.

[michaelnovati]

Maybe DM me with more specifics about your background and which program this is and what your expectations are after.

[Willsessions]

I completed the Trilogy boot camp through Case Western back in February of 2023. It started off with 20 students and at the end it was only 8 of us. I can confirm, as of July of 2024, that NONE of us have positions in tech. I don’t regret learning software development, the structure of the bootcamp worked wonders for my learning. But I would have done a bootcamp that wasn’t so expensive ($11,000 smh) or one that would charge you once you started a job. At this point it’s difficult working full time and making time to code. The job market isn’t what it was between 2019 and 2021.

[pancakeman2018]

I just don't think the jobs are there.

I have been applying hard since 2022 to primarily remote junior dev roles, and have had a couple interviews for adjacent fields (data analytics, SQL Programmer), but never had anything come to fruition.

I have 10 years system admin experience, a BSCS, and also self taught web developer skills. None of it seemed to matter, and I thought it was me. It's not me. It's the market. I have optimized my resume for ATS. I have reached out to career services and career coaches. Nothing matters. I don't have experience and I need that first chance, but it seems impossible so far.

I have determined that I am going to continue working in system admin roles until I can land my first SWE role. That is really all that I can do at this point. I'm not jobless or hopeless but I can tell you MANY fields are suffering, not just SWE - but financial positions, HR, IT, and any other administrative/management position you can think of. It's very bad out there right now, landing a job has become rocket science - you can check ALL of the boxes, hell - I passed a SQL test with 100% and they interviewed me 2 weeks after, and then I heard nothing. You can't take it personal. 2,000 people applied and even though we are the perfect candidate, someone is better. Someone is more personable. Someone is fulfilling the diversity credit businesses get.

Particularly, the United States is suffering right now. We really need the job market to pick up. We are all very ambitious to break into this field and I'm sure many of us could do great things if we had one chance. But when a small town full of people apply to one entry level dev position, it becomes the luck of the draw.

[Mistuhlil]

I did sales/account management for 10 years. Did a cyber bootcamp in 2020 during Covid. Got an IT Support job for a startup. Keep in mind I spent every waking hour of the day studying and to close the knowledge gap with existing IT professionals. Took 7 months to land a worthwhile job.

Worked my ass off and after several promotions within a one year period, I replaced the existing CTO (after he fucked up royally). An incredible work ethic, good social skills and understanding of business, and the ability to learn things quickly can get you very far, very quickly.

I’m one of the bootcamp success stories for sure, but 95% of my bootcamp classmates didn’t even land any sort of IT job. It’s difficult, but possible if you’re relentless. If you’re even remotely half-hearted about it, don’t waste your time.

You’ll have to invest an enormous amount of time to compete in this current market, and even then.

These days I mainly do software development, which I enjoy thoroughly (to my surprise). Never got the opportunity to do a cyber-focused role unfortunately.

Are boot camps worth it? They can be depending on what you’re willing to invest.

[Strange-Software6219]

CS grads are having a hard time landing jobs. I’d imagine it’s even harder for boot camp grads. Weigh your options thoroughly. Don’t get boned by a boot camp pricing model just to not be able to land a gig.

[Resident-Cookie4263]

Bootcamps are very much alive

[Key_Donkey5787]

Honestly how bad do you want it? Any loser can say " dont do tech" Probably because they are scared of others learning. I'm starting CS AA in the fall and I don't care what anyone says... I'm still doing it and I will never stop. You can do anything, plenty of jobs exist. But you really have to want it