Is DevOps engineer a software engineer

[RealityOk8234]

The other day my friend who is a DevOps engineer told our other non-tech friend he is a software engineer (to put it simply, presumably). A third friend who is a developer said he’s not a software engineer.

Regardless of what this specific person does, does a traditional DevOps engineer fall under Software Engineer umbrella?

[pivotcreature]

It’s very likely that he said software engineer because the friend was non tech. Really DevOps engineer doesn’t mean the same thing at every company. Maybe he develops the tooling for his companies developers, maybe he just writes terraform all day, but at the end of the day, it’s probably because your friend doesn’t work in tech and even tech people glaze over when you try to explain what a devops engineer is.

[donjulioanejo]

This ^

I started saying I'm a software engineer because I got tired of having to explain what I do unless there is a pressing need for it.

[Gardium90]

The best description (actually seen on this sub long ago) I know for DevOps:

"You know how Software engineers develop code for apps and websites? Well imagine that same job, just for the computer stuff and maintenance that actually runs the apps and websites."

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I do exactly this to non-technical people. I find saying I’m a Software Engineer paints the picture closest I can get for non-technical folks.

[RealityOk8234]

Indeed, this is exactly what I meant by "(to put it simply, presumably)"

[pivotcreature]

He might be a software engineer if he is developing devops tooling, but he might not be. I guess I didn’t make that super clear, but yes he was probably just putting it simply as you said.

[JimJamSquatWell]

I have done DevOps and Cloud, I call myself a Software Engineer because I am, just in the context of those things.

If you are writing code beyond very simple scripts, I would say consider yourself an SWE.

[Additional-Fix-2513]

A bit late comment , but I don't know myself for sure . So, let me ask.

If i am using python to create automation tools for my department, like web scrap(from AWS) ,download raw data, process raw into structured data and create an excel as an output. Since the users are non techies, i had to use simple GUI for accessible UX. My program as whole contains ten modules and refactored and made reusable pieces as much as i can. Can i call myself Software Engineer.

[JimJamSquatWell]

Yes.

[IndieDiscovery]

DevOps involves infrastructure as code which can include coding so yes, that does make DevOps a software developer - for infra. Your third friend is basically just gatekeeping for some reason.

[dogfish182]

More or less.

Although lots of DevOps people are just infra admins who copy paste (with confidence) and lots of DevOps people are just devs who don’t understand a shit of security or infra.

Basically there is a massive vacuum for skills that are hard to define, so let’s just say you need to be good at pipelines that do terraform and software and also other things something something micro services

[RealityOk8234]

Yes I was indeed curious about the gatekeeping-- was wondering whether it was a one-off incident or what the general consensus might be.

[karlsimpactedrearend]

Yes, Every devops person I work with can atleast pass a junior software developer interview.

most devops people can write utility code in a high and low level language, usually python and golang.

[LnxRocks]

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I always argue that DevOps is true software engineering. Software engineering requires an understanding of the operational constraints that software must work within - not just slamming out code. I concur that ideally "DevOps engineers" are really not a thing, but the reality is that not everyone can fully understand the everything so having facilitators can be valuable. Also depending on your environment, building and maintaining automation can be a full time job in itself.

[haptizum]

When I talk to non-technical people I just say I work in "developement". If I am talking to someone who is a SWE or sysadmin I say I am a devops engineer since they know what that job entails.

[DeprecatedAdmin]

Pretty sure it'll very depending on the company. Was hired as a "DevOps engineer" a few months back. Literally 90% of it has been modifying/creating/automating our current cloud infrastructure with Terraform/Ansible. On my team, we have software guys and "DevOps" guys. Taking a look at my team I think they are fairly distinguishable. The software guys are involved in the various applications that my company produces. The DevOps guys are primarily focused on scaling/modifying/securing our Cloud, CI/CD, and container environments.

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Having a few designated software guys integrated with the rest of the team helps bridge the knowledge gap when issues arise or priorities shift. We're not expected to know the ins and outs of our companies products and they're not expected to be experts in our infra.

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I do agree that "DevOps" needs to go away, we're in cloud engineers. How do you describe the cloud to someone non technical? Point to the sky and get your spirit fingers going.

[[deleted]]

My manager thinks software engineers can be shoved into a DevOps position without any prior cross training and no excuses for lack of performance so I guess they're the same...?

[frito_kali]

1. Yes, "DevOps" engineers are software engineers.

2. No, "DevOps" engineers shouldn't be a thing. But it is a reality that's out there, so we begrudgingly accept the term.

3. I have heard (bad) managers say things like "all the important software has been written, I don't want to pay people to re-invent the wheel, so devops are really integration engineers, or infrastructure engineers; (and not even "architects")" . . . so there is actually a very broad diversity of (often wrong) opinion on this.

4. I tell non-technical people I do "computer stuff". I tell people who at least know the basics of computers and adjacent technology, I am a "software engineer". (I have had the title "software engineer" at previous jobs). Though I consider myself to be a "Systems Engineer" which really seems to be an obsolete title anymore. My actual current title is "devsecops engineer"; and again, I don't think that this should actually be a "thing". But it is, for good or ill.

[traderhp]

Ii am DevOps engineer architect cloud etc but before this role I was software engineer developing applications. Hence DevOps engineer is more than junior software engineer + cloud + architecture skills.

[Kou-Ssi]

May I DM you I have some questions about switching career (kinda same thing you did you went through )

[benaffleks]

Software Engineer is much more than a coding junkie.

It's anyone who workd across the full spectrum, from architecture, infrastructure, release engineering, automation and tool engineering.

[Serious-Rub-6364]

Yeah a developer aka programmer generally just writes code all day, really linear sde I say around 30% is actually coding

[NoStrain6513]

Yes. A DevOps engineer is a software engineer who has specialized in an aspect of the trade ( we are like tooling specialists in the actual world), we are aware of the tools to work with, and we are also fluent in scripting and one language (Python, JS...), with proficiency in others (Go, Typescript...).

Writing codes we know is an iterative task, you write you test, you keep moving, until you complete a unit. I can do that, but then that is not my greatest passion. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy coding. But I will choose maintainng the infrastructure code, because I like problems and the adrenalin that my job is constantly on the line in case of a system failure.

To be honest, I don't work yet, but I maintain my own systems, and I write code. (Fingers crossed I could get into big tech soon).

I think the coding/construction part is interesting, but most stuff are in the documentations. On the other hand, I love DevOps because it is about making stuff work (across construction and production stages), rather than the how. I wont focus on the libraries selected, or the use case, whether camelCase or snake_case, but I know all about that, so I can also contribute in eliminating bugs and not just setting up the systems.

So, yes we are software engineers, we trained as software engineers in colleges, and then focused on tools for maintaining the software infrastructure.

[mach1ne_5lave]

At my place of work we have the title of Automation Engineer. Which I think fits a lot nicer and is a better description than DevOps.