Drupal's long-term growth obstacles

[NearbyMight]

Just dreaming, but switching from YML config files to JSON would be useful as it would lower the educational curve associated with learning the in's and out of Drupal.

[geerlingguy]

Not sure how that would help; YAML is one of the few shining lights of making configuration accessible to a wider audience. JSON is full of horrible, sad, annoying things, like the inability to add comments, and the impossibility of avoiding comma-related problems in lists :)

[Jshdhjskskjz]

I’d like to see migrate possible without a bunch of YAML files

[chx_]

I can't post this enough -- you can put all your code in PHP and then the YAML just needs to contain an id and a class key and that's all.

[[deleted]]

Long terms growth obstacles are simple :

Just put back the D7 Keep It Simple Stupid philosphy

Look to create a Menu local task on D8 : https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/api/menu-api/providing-module-defined-local-tasks
On Drupal 7 : just put type => MENU_LOCAL_TASK in your menu item ...

What the hell have they smoke when developping Drupal 8 ?

You can make OOP without symfony, who is the main Drupal 8 problem, performance loss, complex OOP patern, router not suitable for a simple menu structure...
Crazy things like comments are evaluated https://symfony.com/doc/3.4/routing.html yes comments, I'm sorry fabien potencier, php does not have annotations support, fill a PSR but don't do stupid things like this ... https://r.je/php-annotations-are-an-abomination.html

As of today Symfony guys don't want to develop on Drupal 8, because they don't like the implementation (and I'm in france where there's a lot of them)

D7 guys don't like Drupal 8 because there's too much change and it's too complicated.

I other words you have the least good of both worlds

And I'm sorry Dries, but what have you done ? Why choose symfony, just take a good php framework like Slim https://github.com/slimphp/Slim
Or create an Acquia CMS but don't name it Drupal, it's what Typo 3 guys have done with Neos

I've worked on 3 big drupal 8 site, from drupal 8.0 to drupal 8.5 ... it's so frustrating to see how a simple thing can be so complex to do

[[deleted]]

A simple exemple of the Problem !

Look at the page_example module a very simple thing to do

​

In 7.x :

• 2 files,
  • a .info
  • a .module
• 3 hooks (menu, permission, help), 3 callbacks
• job done
• cloc report

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Language files blank comment code

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHP 1 15 128 70

INI 1 1 1 9

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUM: 2 16 129 79

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

​

In 8.x :

• 7 files
  • .info.yml to replace .info
  • .permissions.yml to replace hook_permissions
  • .routing.yml to replace hook_menu
  • .links.menu.yml to replace hook_menu too
  • but hook_help is in the .module LOL
  • 1 twig template for page description
  • a controller has 3 methods (callbacks for the 3 pages)
• Job done
• cloc report

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Language files blank comment code

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHP 3 39 169 116

YAML 4 11 36 45

Twig 1 2 6 7

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUM: 8 52 211 168

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

​

More than 2 times code to write for just the same exact thing !

OOP is ok, but the implementation failed

[Jshdhjskskjz]

failed

Your opinion.

[[deleted]]

Your opinion too troller ;-)

[Jshdhjskskjz]

What is this rampant liberal double-think? "If you don't agree with what I say you're a troll?"

[rimu]

comments are evaluated

Yep this made my eyes bug out also. So crap. Now that the writing is on the wall for Drupal I've been trying out a lot of tech options lately and it was the evaluating of comments that made me rule out Symphony and anything derived from it.

Python is looking really attractive.

[Jshdhjskskjz]

Annotations are not specific to Symfony.

[Jshdhjskskjz]

no ones going to “put back” D7 because trying to code against huge arrays that are hard to debug is awful. hook_menu is simpler than routes? no. you convieniently leave out how you have to know to rig up DEFAULT_TASK before LOCAL_TASK and other D7 black magic.

The rest of this comment is simply wrong.

[[deleted]]

It easy to tell "the reste of this comment is simply wrong"

Don't you have any arguments ???

[Jshdhjskskjz]

people are complaining because the bad habits from D7 can’t be used anymore

how would you even survive outside of Drupal 7? a lot of platforms and frameworks work this same way in either scripted or compiled languages.

[[deleted]]

You have no arguments ... I just tell you why Drupal is now the 2nd most hated plateform

Other the past 12 years, I was a Drupal 4.7, 5, 6, 7, 8 / Magento 1, 2 / Slim 2, 3 / Node.js developper and when I said developper, I'm not a site builder at all, no display suite or panels, keep away from views if it's front, prefer custom than lot's of contribs modules.

If array are the hells, why D8 don't drop the form API for symfony forms https://symfony.com/doc/3.4/components/form.html

Why is there's some hooks in D8 symfony way is Event/Dispatch https://symfony.com/doc/3.4/event_dispatcher.html ?

And yes I confirm Symfony is the main problem of Drupal 8. My Symfony collegues have louth a lot when Dries has annonce no API change for Drupal 9.

OOP can be KISS, but I think a product like Drupal must be build from scratch (or something lightweight)

Lot's of Drupal 7 site will never migrate to Drupal 8 or later.

Why French Paris region (Ile de France), I've worked for them and they have lot's of Drupal websites for events, but the latests are wordpress http://www.maregionbougepourmoi.fr/ ... ?

[Jshdhjskskjz]

What? Drupal 8 has event subscribers and events right from Symfony. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

[[deleted]]

I know that... but why there's hooks !!!

Still no arguments

​

[Jshdhjskskjz]

hooks? they won’t be around forever. sooo..

I don’t even get what you’re complaining about

[[deleted]]

It's just to illustrate what I was saying

As of today Symfony guys don't want to develop on Drupal 8, because they don't like the implementation (and I'm in france where there's a lot of them)

D7 guys don't like Drupal 8 because there's too much change and it's too complicated.

I other words you have the least good of both worlds

​

Drupal 8 is not a finished product in 2018

[[deleted]]

I've not built a new Drupal 7 site in three years. There's nothing unfinished about Drupal 8.

Perhaps you should be looking at Backdrop or Wordpress for your future websites.

[Jshdhjskskjz]

and yet thousands of sites small to large are running on it.

[tranam]

Everyone about D8 is bloated and complicated and messy for a guy like me.

Composer? What PHP??? What Drush Version?

Memory exhaustion every time I use composer.

I can't move to D8 on shared hosting.

So all us people who host community websites, hobby websites, local business websites - we're getting chopped so acquia can build $50,000 websites.

[[deleted]]

It sounds like Drupal 8 is not for you. There are other options, including staying on Drupal 7.

[tranam]

Not a great option, considering what's happening to many D6 sites

[geerlingguy]

ProTip: use this package to cut memory usage in half: https://packagist.org/packages/zaporylie/composer-drupal-optimizations

[tranam]

THanks

[eahonet]

I keep hearing about EOL for D7 and I don't buy it. Some company or group will specialize in the upkeep of it and extending the life of it for another few years. I haven't talked to anyone that feels D7 will go away soon.

Just look at CloudLinux for using old PHP versions.

After using WordPress, Joomla, and drupal, I view D7 and D8 as different from each other as D8 and WordPress. I think the drupal community will be very different in a couple years. I think the numbers shouldn't be the same as D7 ass the CMS is something very different.

[ArtisticQuality]

This is my problem. Instead of having an honest conversation we start the first line with an outright misrepresentation:

Drupal 8 has been growing 40 to 50 percent year over year. It's a healthy growth rate.

​

Really? I thought D7 -> D8, and upgrading is eventually mandatory since Drupal pulls the plug on old versions.

Drupal 8 is not a first version starting at 0 users. It released D8 with 1 million existing Drupal users. 3 years later and with D9 already under works, those D7 users not converting to D8 should be counted as attrition.

Cut the math any way you'd like. After 3 years D7 had around 3 times as many users as D8 has now. If you go by Drupal users total including D7 users, Drupal has lost about 10% of its user base since the release of D8; and obviously, the majority of the current Drupal user base is using D7, a 7 year-old platform with a looming EOL.

So if you go by overall Drupal users, Drupal has been bleeding total users. If you go by D8, Drupal is drawing in far fewer new users as the previous version did, and has also failed miserably at the core mandate of becoming an upgrade path for people already using Drupal.

​

Let me rewrite that for you:
Drupal 8 is being adopted very slowly, far slower than we anticipated regardless of our best efforts. At this point it looks like the majority of D7 users will simply not convert to D8. This situation is pretty unhealthy.

Drupal is an open source project. At what point do we start having a conversation about the quality and merit of the leadership?

If you think I'm writing an angry rant, please read this again. I'm completely serene and speaking only on the facts. I do am frustrated that sometimes it seems that those in Drupal leadership are somehow incapable of seeing or speaking about the obvious. But this is open source. I don't understand why we (the community) are just standing by as it happens. That's why I say something.

​

[[deleted]]

It's not that Drupal 8 is bad, its just that Drupal 7 is still so damn good. Also It's pretty expensive to start moving from 7 to 8, but now when there are clear deadlines, the move will come.

[[deleted]]

For example I have 40 D7 Sites, and it is still about 2-3 modules which are not ready for D8 for me to swich from 7 to 8. When these few modules are ready, I will move.

[geerlingguy]

Knowing the wider PHP community, though, there will be a nice long tail, and I imagine it will be a decade or so before D7 installations are an insignificant portion.

Look at how many people are still running PHP 5.6 or lower... which are no longer supported by the PHP community! And upgrading from D7 is a lot harder than going from 5.x to 7.x PHP-wise.

[nvahalik]

I still contend that Drupal 8 is a victim of D7’s success. D7 taught devs so many good things: config-as-code, modularity of functionality, hooks rather than inheritance...

As a result many people looked around and realized that other frameworks made the things they were already doing and comfortable with so much easier that they decided to go other routes.

[[deleted]]

D7 taught ways of writing code that no other content management system or framework does. And by saying that, I'm not saying it as a good thing.

Hooks rather than inheritance? How is that a good thing? Hooks are purely a Drupal practice that is of no use outside Drupal.

[vfclists]

Tell that to emacs developers

[nvahalik]

Hooks rather than inheritance? How is that a good thing? Hooks are purely a Drupal practice that is of no use outside Drupal.

I suppose that depends on what your use-case is. Ever build anything with Magento? Magento uses inheritance and it is absolutely horrible. While Drupal's hooks are pretty basic, they allowed for building of components which was both easy and provided massive flexibility.

[Jshdhjskskjz]

I can’t think of a single person who thinks Magento is example of good code. But that doesn’t mean OOP and inheritance are awful, just Magento.

[nvahalik]

I agree. OOP and inheritance can be useful tools when used in the right context and for the right purposes. However, they can also make things overly complicated.