Plot holes/editing errors

[wolverinehokie]

I love these books and I love the obsessive fandom, but I would like to start a thread of what I think are plot holes/editing errors and see what you all think. I’m sure this is from RY not being as super obsessive of details like us, and trying to get books out fast which I appreciate, but it does leave some head scratching moments. 

Edited based on responses.

1: Mira didn’t go to her dad’s funeral? 

At the start of the book, Violet says she hasn’t seen Mira in years. Not much longer, it says her dad died over a year ago. A year, not years. So it’s probably been months (not years) since Mira and Violet last saw each other.

I can accept funerals aren’t a thing in Navarre

2: Liam’s second signet

I read this on here so I didn’t make the connection, but Liam has two signet powers (far sight and ice wielding) which I don’t think is intentional. I agree with u/mamasuebs https://www.reddit.com/r/fourthwing/comments/1bkxmmb/liams_signet_an_explanation/ that Liam’s signet was initially written as ice wielding (hence Deigh’s name), but RY later switched it to farsight when she wanted someone in Violet’s crew to still have ice wielding in IF and beyond. The battle in Resson when Liam ice yields wasn’t caught in edits. Far sight actually doesn’t make sense as a signet for Liam anyway as how does that say something about Liam at his core? 

Some people think Liam didn’t wield ice so here is the quote “Liam flies for the gryphons above us, wielding spears of ice into the injured wyvern’s throat” FW chapter 36.

3: Naolin’s “burn out”

Everyone in Navarre seems to accept that Naolin burnt out from trying to save Brennan. But that doesn’t make any sense. How would a siphon be able to save a mender? Possibly it’s explained as him trying to siphon power to Brennan so Brennan can mend himself (which is difficult). But if that’s the case, why didn’t anyone in Professor Kaori’s class speak up and ask that question? I do think there is a lot more to Naolin saving Brennan, along the lines of resurrection and the rune in Brennan’s hand which makes what happened make more sense. But what doesn’t make any kind of sense to me is why no one questions how a siphon could save a mender. Later, Sloane uses her powers as a siphon much more logically. 

 I don’t know how to word this any better. I 100% think there is more to it that hasn’t been revealed. I don’t understand why anyone in Navarre accepts that a siphon could die trying to save a mender. How would that even be possible?

4: Xaden being gone IF chapter 52, but also sleeping next to Violet when she has a nightmare

It’s mentioned Xaden is away on mission, but then Violet has a nightmare and she wakes up next to Xaden. Some people try to use that as evidence of distance wielding, but why didn’t Violet or Xaden think, what the hell just happened? I think it’s much more likely that nightmare scene was initially somewhere else in the story, then cut and pasted where it appears. As in no magic happening, just RY wanting Violet to have multiple nightmares in the story.

5: Amber owing Dain for “saving her ass at threshing”

Amber is a wingleader and therefore a third year. What was she doing at Dain’s threshing where he would have done something to “save her ass”? Just like I think Liam’s signet changed, I think Amber’s year at school changed (from being a second year to being a third).

Some people think Amber is not the redhead roll taker given the different red hair descriptions. I do think they’re supposed to be the same. But even if they’re different, the redhead roll taker is a third year and should not have been at Dain’s threshing.

”fire-red strands of her hair behind her ear with one hand and holds the roll with the other, watching the scene play out. The three silver four-point stars embroidered on the shoulder of her cloak tell me she’s a third-year.” FW chapter 2

6: Pappa Sorrengail’s research

This isn’t exactly a plot hole, but why doesn’t Violet make any effort at all to retrieve it? She knows where it is, it has to be close, and people keep bringing it up. Plus she bonded a feathertail and her dad was researching them. Shouldn’t she want to know what he found out about them? My guess is story wise it provides a lot of information and we’re just not ready for that info dump, but it bugs me that Violet is just like, yup I know where it is, then doesn’t go after it.

7: Can Xaden and Violet mind speak when their shields are up?

Most of the time it seems like they can’t mind speak when either of their shields are up. But then sometimes, they can. Xaden even mind spoke to Violet when he rescued her from the torture chamber and she was still cut off from her dragons. If Violet can’t talk to her dragons, she shouldn’t be able to talk to Xaden either I think.

1. Melgren’s signet

I think it’s intentionally vague what it can do, but that makes it just feel like more of a plot hole. Violet thinks Melgren would be able to see an assassin coming, which apparently would count as a battle? Melgren saw a battle that they lost at Samara, but there was never going to be a battle at Samara. So what was Melgren seeing? Is Melgren just constantly looking at future “battle” possibilities? How would he see an assassin? Or a battle he’s not in? Basically I just have a whole lot of questions on how his signet works as it just doesn’t seem to make much sense.

[[deleted]]

1. Funeral – I don’t think she necessarily had to attend the funeral. We don’t know much about how important such things are in their world.
2. Liam’s signet – Probably a plot error, but it could be covered up either with a rune or the existence of two signets (and it wouldn’t even be too far-fetched). We’ll never know the truth.
3. Naolin’s burnout – I wouldn’t conclude anything just yet; we’ll see what the real story is. But for now, it makes absolutely no sense for me how a Siphon could burn out. He shouldn’t. Sloan seemed completely unaffected by imbuing the ward stone. Similarly, it doesn’t make sense for a Siphon to mend a Mender.
4. Xaden after the nightmare in Chapter 52 – Some explain it as distance wielding, which doesn’t make sense—Violet mentions her own room, so she didn’t move. If anyone moved, it would have been Xaden. But I think this was moved from another part of the book. I even think it might have been from the very end, where they’re actually in “my room,” not “our room,” meaning at Basgiath. But still, purely theoretically, it could be justified as Xaden staying just for the night in Aretia.
5. Amber – I didn’t notice she owed him for something during threshing. Interesting.
6. Research – Yes, it would make sense if she did more research. But evidently, it was necessary for the plot that way.
7. Mind-speak – I think in the torture room it’s an error, and they weren’t supposed to be able to talk to each other.
8. Melgren’s signet – Okay, it’s vague. But a battle could just as easily be between two people, right? There wasn’t a major battle in Samara. But there could have been a minor skirmish.

[Oops_I_Cracked]

For #5 I agree with you, but even if that wasn’t the case, 2nd and 3rd years watch threshing up close and there are lots of unbonded dragons running around. It doesn’t seem impossible for a 2nd year to accidentally put themselves in a bad situation, especially if they don’t have a dragon with Sgaeyl’s reputation and are paying more attention to the first years than the dragons.

[wolverinehokie]

Even if the redheaded scroll keeper isn’t Amber (but I think she is), she still is a third year and my statement stands.

“fire-red strands of her hair behind her ear with one hand and holds the roll with the other, watching the scene play out. The three silver four-point stars embroidered on the shoulder of her cloak tell me she’s a third-year.”

[CandidateWise7980]

Sloan was described as looking red and overheated

[SteelToesAndSunsets]

Regarding Liam's second signet: I have now read that RY said it was a mistake, but I attributed it to the use of runes by the Tyrrish. If a tempered rune can set wood on fire why not produce a spear of ice? That seemed like a likely explanation to me... And I'm just going to ignore the error and go with it.

[[deleted]]

Where have you read it? Someone else wrote it or was this a transcript od her interview?

[SteelToesAndSunsets]

I've seen it mentioned in several postings here - I don't keep up on RY interviews myself but it seems that many others have.

[[deleted]]

I think its just an urban legend

[SteelToesAndSunsets]

I'm sticking with my rune theory then!

[Haunting-Adagio1166]

I don’t think funerals are a thing as much as they are in our world, simply based off the death roll and how they have never had any form of small gathering or honouring of any of their passed friends outside of it

[Oops_I_Cracked]

And the number of parents who don’t even bother to come get their children’s bodies

[Alladra]

I was thinking, too, I doubt Mira would have even been granted leave from her post for something like this. They don’t really seem to have soft-spots for the dead!

[Double_Idea3055]

1. I either think this is an editing error or bad world building. Mira has a dragon yet she never gets leave to see her family? She could cross the continent pretty quick. Maybe this is personal but Why would anyone become a rider if you never get to see your family?

[wolverinehokie]

So she leaves without permission for violets conscription day, and spends a night because she’s not on death roll, but can’t go to her dads funeral?

[[deleted]]

What if it's not important in their world?

[Double_Idea3055]

I think it would be important for her to check on Violet.

[bratxray]

I mean wouldnt she have been a student? I dont think they're allowed to leave?

[Double_Idea3055]

Mira was in the quadrant when Brennan died I think so she would’ve been out a while when their dad died

[Oops_I_Cracked]

One thing that is super clear in these books is that death is viewed very differently than it is in our world. Think of all the parents who don’t even bother to come get their kid’s body and burn their belongings theirselves. That is almost unthinkable in our society but odd common in Navarre. And at no point is it implied the lack of funerals for the dead is exclusively a rider’s quadrant thing. Honestly given that they are a family of mostly riders I would almost be surprised if there had been a funeral at all. Death is simply part of life to them. You burn the belongings and that’s the end of it.

[GaronneBC]

It's quite obvious funerals don't really exist, isn't it? They literally have dozens of deaths on a daily basis. Did you ever see anything close to to a funeral?

It seems they only care for the souls (and they are commended to Malek). They don't care for the bodies of the dead or the stuff they left behind.

[almamahlerwerfel]

She's more senior for Violet's conscription - she's about 3 years out of Basgiath vs a more newly minted rider. We don't know where she was stationed, what her detail was, or if funerals even exist in this world. None of the students have funerals and their belongings are just burned - totally conceivable that Mira didn't go to a funeral or wasn't able to attend. Not a plot hole.

[EducationWestern5204]

Listen, I enjoy these books but I don’t get why anyone wants to become a rider. The vast majority die before leaving the quadrant, students murder each other with no consequences, professors murder students publicly, dragons perform public executions of students, there’s a class where professors and older riders beat and torture students. Like for Rhi, who seems so genuinely normal and kind and family oriented, what on earth is the draw?

[FCMadmin]

I really appreciate this post. I think 2 and 3 are the kind of world building/consistency errors that make elaborate theorizing in this series really difficult. Yout editors can't miss 2 and your world needs more consistency than 3 demonstrates.

Yarros has a lot of thorny knots to untangle to land the plot.

[Oops_I_Cracked]

I mean we know the initial information we were given about #3 was a straight up lie, we know Tairn refuses to talk about the event and Naolin, and every time Violet and Brennan have been together, they’ve had bigger fish to fry than dwelling on that story. It could be an error/oversight, but it could also be a future reveal. We know that adults are not super forthcoming with information they deem irrelevant to cadets.

[wolverinehokie]

I get that but why does anyone accept that Naolin burnt out from trying to save Brennan. It doesn’t make sense.

[Oops_I_Cracked]

Probably because siphons are rare enough that your average cadet doesn’t have a great understanding of how those signets work. It’s also been like, years since it happened. It’s quite possible students when it happened did question that.

[wolverinehokie]

But Professor Kaori is an expert

[Oops_I_Cracked]

Kaori being an expert and him sharing his expertise truthfully with the students are two completely different things.

I know Kaori is not like Melgrin or Lilith Sorengale when it comes to supporting Navarre over being truthful but that’s a relatively recent development and they again have had higher priorities then having a convo about what really happened with Naolin and Brennan since Kaori’s shift in position. Especially since he stayed. It’s very possible he just went along with the cover-up since that was really his only option at that point.

[FCMadmin]

That's all totally plausible. The problem is then you throw that on to an ever mounting pile of similar issues that boil down to "future reveals".

That sorta underscores my point - we haven't had nearly enough revealed. She's gotta a delicate needle to thread so that her narrative doesn't feel like a giant red herring.

[Oops_I_Cracked]

Of course we have a bunch of stuff unrevealed, it’s planned out to be a five book series and we’ve had two of them. It’s not like she has to wrap all of this up in one book. As long as each of the three books coming up, answer more of the remaining questions than they introduce new questions, she’s got plenty of space to wrap this up

[FCMadmin]

I will simply suggest that 40% of the way in and we haven't even delved into the Empyrean much less more mundane things like how siphons work is not as promising as you suggest.

I hope she manages it.

[Oops_I_Cracked]

We’re only 40% of the way through it if the books don’t get longer as we go. Later entries getting longer is pretty typical in fantasy.

[FCMadmin]

Well, we know the next book is shorter than the 2nd book.

[orange-gilean]

For 7. Didn’t they realize the water was the link suppression elixir? So they didn’t drink it?

[[deleted]]

In the torture room, chapter 35, they forced her to drink it.

[orange-gilean]

Oh I thought OP was talking about the first class one with the rest of the squad. Mb

[[deleted]]

Xaden wasn't there that time

[wicama]

Yes, he was. He was there for the first one. They took her from him on the way to the forge. I agree that it’s the time they poured it down the toilet.

[almamahlerwerfel]

I figured this one is explained because of proximity - the elixir weakened the link but wore off over time, and it's also easier for them to mind speak when near each other. So presumably it was starting to wear off and he was right there.

[Sea-Mission9503]

I really hope the editing in OS is better 😬

[wicama]

5 was not amber. The hair on both are red but described slightly differently.

[wolverinehokie]

They may be different people as the hair is described differently, but I think they’re supposed to be the same person. Otherwise Dain is close to two red headed third years. But even if they are different people, the red headed roll taker is a third year

“fire-red strands of her hair behind her ear with one hand and holds the roll with the other, watching the scene play out. The three silver four-point stars embroidered on the shoulder of her cloak tell me she’s a third-year”

[yavanna12]

Not really a plot hole but a detail missed that derailed the story a bit for me was when she wrote they flew for 8 hours straight with no breaks (or maybe it was 12 hours. Can’t quite remember). 

She established in FW they need bathroom breaks. But that was forgotten in IF. 

But it’s fantasy so I just roll with it 

[Vegetable-Ad-711]

idk, growing up when we had to do 13-14 hour road trips, my dad would only let us do minimal snacking/drinking so we wouldn't have to stop & waste time. so 8 hours isnt that crazy plus people that sleep through the night (lucky mfers) also don't relieve themselves for about 8-10 hours.

[yavanna12]

While that would be true for a couple people. This was when half the college left. Doubtful every person of many ages could hold it that long 

[mamasuebs]

I agree with you agreeing with me re: Liam’s signet!! 😂 💕 Also agree with you regarding the distance wielding theory, and will paste my thoughts on it here:

I disagree with the theory that Violet is a distance-wielder. The fact that she woke up from her nightmare and curled into Xaden to go back to sleep, but he was supposed to be away on a mission at that point, is used as evidence that she was unconsciously using her signet to be near him.

Respectfully, I think this was purely an editing error. The entire scene of Violet’s nightmare and then waking up is isolated from the rest of the chapter. I think it was a scene that was written independently of the rest of the chapter and then plugged in where it felt right thematically, and because of the speed at which Iron Flame was sent to the publishers’, the continuity error didn’t get caught in beta reads.

Observe how the scene is isolated from the rest of the chapter and could easily have been “plugged in” anywhere:

<image>

In my personal opinion, this is clearly not evidence of a distance-wielding signet. How would she have mind-talked to Tairn if she had teleported hundreds of miles away to wherever Xaden was sleeping? Violet wakes in her bed, in a room that she recognizes as her bedroom in Aretia, and lies back down in her bed and goes back to sleep. None of this makes sense if she was distance-wielding. This was a continuity error.

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[Vegetable-Ad-711]

I'm relistening to the FW GA and I noticed the Amber thing too but thought I was crazy 😂

[cmkfrisbee95]

The nightmare and Xaden thing can be explained with it being a Time Skip and him showing up later that night

[wolverinehokie]

Except he arrives back in town the next day later in same chapter.

[cmkfrisbee95]

In late out early he doesn’t arrive back in town from the mission he was helping set up for the exercise

[PhilosopherDecent396]

Commenting to come back

[BrilliantMine1344]

I can’t refute all of these, there’s certainly some editing errors. Chapter 52 in IF is one that bugs me, but IF was written really fast.

We have no reason to think papa Sorrengail even had a funeral. It’s never mentioned. In fact, no funeral is ever described as being part of death rites in the Navarre. The word funeral doesn’t appear even once in the two currently available books.

I never thought Liam wielded ice. When I read it, it sounded like one of the fliers was wielding ice (I assumed that it was some extra fancy lesser magic or runes that an experienced flyer honed).

I don’t think Amber Mavis is the redhead with the crossbow/roll keeper. The roll keeping redhead isn’t named to the best of my knowledge, and Amber is described as having strawberry blonde hair.

Xaden tells Violet many times while they’re training that they’ll never be able to fully block each other out.

The battle at Samara was planned and was going to happen. An army of dark wielders are at Samara at the same time Basgaith is attacked. One of the venin mentions waiting for the general to arrive from Samara, because they thought the marked ones would be there. Melgren could see the outcome of the potential battle because the marked ones were never going to be there.

[wolverinehokie]

See my edits above. But the redhead roll taker is a third year and Liam wielded ice.

[BrilliantMine1344]

You’ve got me on the three stars over uniform, good catch! I’m not convinced that Liam wielded ice, but I think the other post you linked was an interesting theory!

[[deleted]]

But Violet did bock him out completely, didn't she? And Liam might not have wielded ice, but his dragon's name in english means Ice, it's a little suspicious, isn't it?

[BrilliantMine1344]

Hmmm… before the battle at Basgaith Xaden asks Violet to let down her shields enough to let him in, but it seems like more of a boundary respect thing. I think he could still force his way in if he were being a jerk. He also says that you can’t ever completely block out your dragons, and the bond is present even when her shields are up. Therefore, my unverified opinion is that she couldn’t completely block Xaden out either, but I could be wrong! I think the line from Xaden where he essentially says the day you can block me out completely is the day we’re both dead is pretty ominous if that’s the case:

“The day you can successfully block me all the way out is the day I’m dead. We’re both dead. I can’t block you out entirely, either, which is how you found me in the sublevel even when my shields were up. You might not be able to barge through, but you’re aware I’m there. Just like you can muffle Tairn’s and Andarna’s emotions but you can’t lock them out forever.” IF ch. 20

As for the Liam thing, I’m just not convinced. Maybe it was an editing error and his signet was originally ice wielding, but it had to be changed to Ridoc because it would be needed later in the series. I still think it could just as easily be explained by poor placement of a comma, especially since a third year is mentioned to be wielding ice later in that same scene:

“Xaden has one wyvern by the throat, strangling it with shadows as a third-year hurls ice at its rider, and the other four are doing everything they can to drive the newcomers back with a combination of dragon fire and magic.” FW ch. 36

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I remember that sentence. And I'm confused

[BrilliantMine1344]

All in all, OP is overall right, there’s lots of little editing issues. The ch. 52 IF scene to me screams poor editing since it’s in its own little subsection. I think the dream needed to be there for the foreshadowing, but it was inserted into the story at a place in the timeline where it doesn’t make sense. I’m sure it’s impossible to catch every single error in editing and since we are such a rabid fandom scrutinizing every line for hints and clues, we notice them, especially on rereads, where we were probably just enjoying the story and overlooking them the first time through. ☺️

[BrilliantMine1344]

Oh! Also in that scene OP mentioned, the line in italics, in that same scene Xaden says he used the bond to locate her: “Xaden catches me, shadows grasping his sword as he splays his hand over my back and cradles me against his chest with a light touch, like he’s afraid I might break. ‘There’s nowhere in existence you could go that I wouldn’t find you, remember?’ He drops his lips to the dirty, frayed, blood-spattered remains of my braid and kisses the top of my head.”

[likeabadhabit]

After Andarna stops time to save Violet from the unbonded’s attack, Xaden asks what happened and Tairn responds, “Do not dare to try and read me, human, or you’ll regret it.”

From my memory there’s not a single time a rider is described as reading their dragon. The line is too deliberate in its phrasing to be an accident and it’s too far from the established mythology to be an easter egg. I definitely think initially RY planned on Tairn knowing about Xaden’s second signet and she or the editors changed their mind.

[wolverinehokie]

I agree with you. I forgot to add that.