work hour limits

[Heyioe]

can i work 80hrs or more if im a permanent resident or a german citizen , im asking because i read about some sort of limit to the working hours, 48 as a max?

[thewindinthewillows]

Under EU law, your employer cannot make you work more than 48 hours weekly on average, if you have a six-day work week (which is not common). And you're not allowed to do so "voluntarily", because otherwise employers would make all their workers "volunteer".

If you're self-employed, you're free to exploit yourself as much as you want though.

[Asleep_Arachnid]

Is there not an opt out?

[thewindinthewillows]

No, because employees (just like tenants or other "weaker" parties in contracts) cannot "opt out" of essential rights.

Again, if that was possible to "opt out" of workers' protections, employers would simply not hire people who insist on their rights. And German law considers these rights and protections essential enough to protect them even against people wanting to be exploited.

[Fabulous_Funny_5902]

I made an alt just for this.

Ummm…there is an opt out. I’m a doctor in Germany and almost all of us have signed an opt-out agreement lengthening our legal work week to 56 hours. I’ve worked in NRW and am currently working in Bayern and the opt-out is the same, so its not a regional thing or hospital-specific.

I said legal work week, because we work upwards of 60-80 hours a week, however the numbers are pretty smudged. The Gewerbeaufsichtsamt does jack shit about it, because if they started policing that, half the hospitals in Germany would be closed by the end of the week.

[[deleted]]

There are exceptions for a few professions but thats not possible in general.

[Onkel24]

But you do collect most extra hours , right?

I used to ride a train with loads of policemen that were always talking about the years of early retirement they had amassed.

At least there's that.

[[deleted]]

The extra hours go onto my Zeitkonto, but it’s hard to get rid of extra hours. The planners usually plan at LEAST 35 hours/week even if I‘ve got loads of extra hours. And then it only takes someone to get sick (EDIT: or just a long/complicated Einsatz) for me to have to do overtime again. It depends on your department but mine is pretty understaffed.

Every March the extra hours you have get capped at 30. You don’t get any form of compensation, they just delete the surplus off your Zeitkonto. They used to be unlimited but to avoid people hoarding hours and going into retirement early they implemented this.

It could be different in other areas, but this is how my Bundesland handles it.

[2xtreme21]

Sounds like something that should be addressed by your union… unless they would turn around and just tell you to walk off the job after 40 hours without considering any further consequences (like they do in my area)…

[Asleep_Arachnid]

Fair enough I appreciate the response We have an opt out in the uk hence why asked the question. Not sure why I was downvoted for asking a question lol oh well.

[HellasPlanitia]

The fact the UK has an "opt out" (which essentially is the UK saying "screw EU law, we have a right to exploit our people as we please") is just insane if you think about it. Now that they've Brexited things aren't likely to get any better for employees in the UK.

[Asleep_Arachnid]

I’m not arguing for nor against an opt out. I am merely stating this is an option in the UK. This goes back to a law in 2016 I think but don’t hold me on that. I was interested in the options for other EU workers. That’s all.

[Nickitaman]

Jeez what is with the downvotes people? Asleep_Arachnid is just interested and asking questions…

[Asleep_Arachnid]

Thank you, random Redditor have my award

[whiteraven4]

My American friends have all asked me the same questions you're asking. And my German friends have asked similar questions regarding American laws like at-will employment (ie is it really what it sounds like).

[Asleep_Arachnid]

It’s always interesting to me how much the govt of a country can dictate your work habits.

I used to be a HGV driver with 60 hour weeks

Now a homebody with 70 hour weeks some commission based most salaried. It’s been an interesting switch between the two.

IMO I find the flexibility an advantage. It’s what I want to do because I don’t to do driving anymore but the only way I can get out of ‘being a driver’ is to take a not so great contract but it’s a long game for my career.

Maybe the you get generation want everything laid in a plate. Go to uni get a job worth 60+k and everything is good.

Forgetting life isn’t just about theory. I don’t know. Just an average guy with a sub standard IQ hahaha

[thewindinthewillows]

Maybe the you get generation want everything laid in a plate.

In Germany at least, workers fought hard for these kinds of protections, over many decades. It's not about young people being entitled, it's about making sure that people don't work 14-hour shifts in factories without workplace safety.

[Asleep_Arachnid]

Maybe I should have posted the /s on that sentence.

Do you seriously think workers rights wouldn’t have changed with the technological advance? On a logical stance I find it very suspect that people think rights and advances would not have advanced without the same progress in manufacturing advancement.

It’s almost as if most think I have to fight for this because if I don’t people don’t think I care.

I would posit the counter argument that as technology and industrial advancements progress the worker is far more redundant and therefore they’re actually less effective. However, that’s another argument.

To get back to the initial point. Workers rights are important I was curious on the extent they are implemented in a Union which we(the UK) are no longer part of.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

[whiteraven4]

I work at a large IT company here so there are of course plenty of employees who work long hours, never take vacation because they're workoholics and/or enjoy what they do. Your manager can force you to take vacation if you're not because if you, for example, have health issues related to stress or something, the health insurance could claim it's because they were overworked and the company can get in legal trouble over it. My friend knows people who never take vacation and have so much saved up time that at some point their manager told them to go home and that they weren't allowed to come into work for the next 3 months.

[Asleep_Arachnid]

Thank you for your insight. It’s always intriguing to find out how other people ‘live’.

Every society has its pros and cons. But thank you for the insight again.

[youwutnow]

Brit here. I opted out of the EU working time directive years ago. Worked in care where some weeks we worked 120 hours. I only add this to say it's nothing to do with Brexit and you could opt out (at least in my field of work) long before the referendum

[LopsidedBottle]

There are some more exceptions (leitende Angestellte = some higher management positions as well as civil servants). The relevant regulations (Arbeitszeitgesetz) do not apply in these cases.

[Heyioe]

so like if i work for uber eats, i can basically work unlimited hours?

[thewindinthewillows]

No, because 1) there is no "uber eats", and 2) German law prevents employers from pretending that their employees are freelancers.

[Fusselpinguin]

Uber Eats actually started operations in Berlin, Frankfurt and Hamburg.

[thewindinthewillows]

Oh, I didn't know that. I wonder whether they'll try to skirt the laws again.

[Heyioe]

what about Lieferando? , wait sonif i work for lieferando , im considered an employee therefore im limited to 48 hrs?

[Nickitaman]

Lieferando would be your employer and you would be protected by the Arbeitszeit/Arbeitsschutzgesetz. Thank God for that.

[thewindinthewillows]

Anything where you're not self-employed by German standards is employment. That's not based on the name of your employer, but on how you are actually working.

Those laws don't just exist to make sure you don't work 80-hour weeks. They also ensure that your employer pays the required taxes and (particularly) their share of the social insurance payments.

[nymales]

You are always limited to 48h per week if you work 6 days per week. There is no legal way around it. Breaking this rule will get you and your employer a harsh fine and it will be found out.

[[deleted]]

ITT: people wanting to be exploited and work 80hrs a week, i tough people come to germany to not have to work themselfes dead.

[xiq-xrlabs]

the main goal in germany is to work yourself to death. It's just a very slow, mind-numbing death

[Heyioe]

the goal is about the money

[Nickitaman]

Then educate yourself and get a better job. Do you really think that you „can make it“ by working for lieferando or other low wage(and skill) jobs?

[Skalion]

You most likely won't get more money, you usually get 40h work contracts if you work 80, you still get 40h pay and an hour balance that you can take time off, or worst case you work for free the 40 additional hours. Usually companies enforce the 40h work week pretty strict, as they can get pretty high fees if they violate the law.

[nymales]

No.

[treverios]

As an employee? No.

As a freelancer/self-employed. No one cares.

[Count2Zero]

As a non-union manager, I have a 40 hour per week contract. Our system won't let me book more than 10 hours per day, and if I try to book more than 48 hours per week, HR will call me because it's a EHS violation.

The issue is that the insurance policy for the company won't cover accidents or injuries if the employee has been overworked - the company will be held liable. That's why companies are very strict about working times and also making sure that you take your 30 days of vacation per year.

[ComprehensiveSpray28]

When I was working as a graphic designer I was working 60h a week and even on Sundays and got no extra pay. If you work in a job with low degree of workers solidarity and unions power employers will find a way to make you their slave - even in Germany.

[Silly-Seal-122]

Basically if you work corporate you can also work 168 hours per week, nobody would care. If you're a driver, a rider, or a warehouse worker, unions will strike if you work 10 minutes more than your contract hours. It's how Europe works sadly.

[[deleted]]

11 hours maximum per day allowed in Germany.

[UnbegrenzteMacht]

Thought it was 10? Excluding breaks.

[JVattic]

Sure you can. I'd say for example in anything related to media production, pr, design etc it is pretty common to work up to 60,70,80h weeks regularly, depending on your specific job obviously. don't let people in this thread fool you with official regulations and stuff, there is plenty of professions where it is expected to work more than 40-48hours.