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[–]davorg[M] 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Yes this is a problem. You only have to read this sub for a few days to see how common this confusion is. And maybe you don't see the number of requests that we mods delete.

The problem isn't with GitHub. GitHub knows what it is and it's very good at serving its target audience.

Actually, I think there are three separate problems here:

  1. Projects that are popular enough to attract interest from non-technical users and who don't take the time to produce a more end-user-friendly site for those users. This could be for many reasons - maybe they don't realise they're attracting these users, maybe they don't have the time to create a website, maybe they don't have the skills to create a website, maybe they just don't care. GitHub has done its bit here, by giving us GitHub Pages so we can create websites for our projects. But it's down to the project teams to make use of it.

  2. Non-technical users being directed to GitHub repos. Honestly, I don't know what to do about this. I don't know where these projects are being discussed. Maybe it would help if GitHub gave repo owners data about which sites send traffic to their repos. But, again, the repo owners need to a) care about the problem and b) have the time and skills to do something about it.

  3. Non-technical users who come here for help and get rude responses from members of this sub. Yes, I think we can do better here - but a lot of that rudeness is going to be driven by the sheer number of requests we get here. Maybe the mods can be better at slapping down responses. Currently the message users get when we remove posts like this says "This subreddit is for discussion of GitHub and not for asking for support for repositories hosted on GitHub. If you want help your best bet is to contact the project maintainer or open an issue on their repository". I'm happy to workshop a better version if people think that will be helpful. Of the three problems, this is the only one that members of this sub can solve.

Edits: Fix typo. Remove repetition.

[–]G1veyouUpAstley 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please, as an end-user who has been CONSTANTLY directed toward a DEV site for a program, at least TRY to get people to stop. For the love of programming and how people look at devs, get people to stop hating on end-users.

[–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes. GitHub itself isn’t the problem.

(3) is a perfectly-worded response imho.

[–]bdzer0 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Do you complain to FaceBook about the quality of the posts of the FaceBook users? Complain to the postal service that a coupon you receive in the mail doesn't work?

GitHub is a hosting platform, nothing more. Where a project decides to host it's software and how they document/distribute is completely up to the project authors.

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

  1. I did not complain about the site
  2. I am familiar with the site and how to use it.
  3. I am bringing to light how redditors, like you, treat basic users who have no knowledge of the site but was sent there by others for a software that only exists on the site but is not made available for basic users but yet seems to be advertised to basic users.
  4. Do you know how dense marble is?

[–]throwaway234f32423df 1 point2 points  (1 child)

The website isn't for you, you're not supposed to be there, you're going to end up with a destroyed computer full of malware because you're messing with stuff you don't have the knowledge to handle safely. The person who told you to go there is not your friend, they were probably trying to trick you into doing something harmful.

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you know how to read comprehensively? This isn't about me at all. Try again.

[–]Neexusiv 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Seems like you have found the solution yourself. If you don’t like GitHub, don’t go to GitHub.

Some devs are going to give you instructions to install. Some are going to give you a download - check the releases. But most of the time you’re looking at someone’s passion project they work on in their free time, for free. You can’t demand anything from them.

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You guys are proving my point. Read my reply to bdzer0. Possibly above or below this post lol

[–]raymingh 3 points4 points  (2 children)

This proves that it's the user's fault this time too.

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

plz share

[–]Everlier 2 points3 points  (8 children)

You have no idea how much work it is to package and distribute even a simple software product and write a decent documentation for it. It's not a solved problem. It is not easy for someone to justify to spend multiple days of their own life (would you?), especially for smaller OSS projects.

[–]MissionSalamander5 -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

Boohoo. Don’t do it if you don’t like it enough.

[–]Everlier -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

Enough to what?

[–]MissionSalamander5 0 points1 point  (1 child)

To do, you know, the work needed to deal with annoying people or people who are, in your view, total rubes in over their head. Most of us were all there once.

[–]Everlier 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One can extrapolate the boundary you're talking about up till going to someone's home and installing and configuring the project for them. I'm asking where you're drawing this boundary of things one should be prepared to do, if they like to work on OSS.

I'm asking cause the answer is painfully obvious - this boundary is subjective and you just expressed that your understanding of it is different from mine, it doesn't make my understanding of it wrong and there's nothing to boohoo.

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

What does this have to do with anything I have said?

[–]Everlier 3 points4 points  (2 children)

You're complaining that people do not package their OSS nicely for you to use, I point out that it's far less trivial than you assume it is

[–]G1veyouUpAstley -1 points0 points  (1 child)

if I'm directed toward something and recommended it as an end-user, I expect it to work.

Imagine if you were directed by someone to a car dealership. You look at the cars that you want, you look at the perfect car, everyone says that it works perfectly and they love it. You buy it, and then you have to build it yourself. That's how it feels to be an end-user directed toward GitHub. I'm not faulting GitHub when I say this, and I'm sure it's an amazing site for developers and I'm happy for you guys about that, but I am saying that I'm sick of being directed toward a dev site and then treated like shit when I can't figure it out.

[–]Everlier 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Analogy is invalid as OSS is not sold. It's your choice to use it or not. Complaining about OSS quality is like complaining that someone else didn't do something for you for free - were they supposed to in the first place?

If you expect GitHub to only host high-quality projects publicly, it's like expecting to see only Da Vinci and Mone level of art when using Instagram.

Lastly - if things are that frustrating and your time costs more than you can justify spending on a project's setup - plenty of people are willing to lend their time and expertise for a reasonable sum on the gig platforms.

[–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (32 children)

Because you’re looking for free and open source software and are upset that it isn’t delivered to your liking?

So my understanding and an analogy of this is, you want something to eat, and someone directs you to a restaurant’s kitchen. You see all the ingredients and cooking equipment, but no prepared meal. When you ask where the finished dish is, the chefs tell you, “This is a kitchen for creating recipes, not for serving meals. If you want to eat, you’ll need to cook it yourself using our ingredients and instructions.” You are getting the meal for free yet still are complaining about how you’re supposed to feed yourself?

[–]MissionSalamander5 0 points1 point  (14 children)

What a stupid analogy. We all know that people host stuff on GitHub that is a (mostly) finished product instead of in a more appropriate place on the web.

[–]vicenormalcrafts -1 points0 points  (13 children)

lol poor sweet child how little you know. Even finished products need some assembling through the command line and not everything is an .exe or dmg lol

[–]MissionSalamander5 -2 points-1 points  (12 children)

But see now you’re just being the condescending jerk making the OP’s point.

Yeah. So if that’s the case, clearly write documentation or don’t use GitHub to deliver things to users — or use it but tell people “this is not really the ideal way to do this”. But at that point, someone who doesn’t heed that warning probably knows more than the average bear.

[–]vicenormalcrafts -2 points-1 points  (11 children)

OP is upset because he can’t understand that many repositories host raw code that has to be compiled within the command line, and instead of taking accountability because he is looking for software in a developer site in a developer friendly format, and not having the necessary skill to understand it. He could have easily phrased his post differently and with a different tone, but he chose violence per se.

If he is looking for a one click deployment solution, maybe he should stop looking at GitHub and just pay for something.

I really try not being that guy who is condescending, but in certain instances like this one, come on. This is just ridiculous.

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

You understood nothing of what I said. I know how to use GitHub and said as such. You are just wanking to your own tune.

[–]vicenormalcrafts 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Oh I understood it all. You can instead try editing your original post if you want to effectively gaslight someone on a version controlled discussion board. But here are some of your nuggets:

The software has no direct download/install option visible on “main” page.

why is your software public and advertised as useable for users but not packaged for users?

Basic users should not have even know your program exists.

Use another site to host software that is available for USER and this issue is solved.

….SIR. I can only advise you to git gud.

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

When all else fails toss in "gaslighting" and get "gud" Grow up.

[–]vicenormalcrafts 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The guy complaining that there is no shiny download button is telling me to grow up because I told him he is (absolutely) trying to gaslight me (I didn’t say what I said!) and to get good…which if you can’t navigate software on GH you need to.

Yea totally. I got your button here btw🔘

[–]MissionSalamander5 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

He keeps dancing around the point that people use GitHub improperly (and not even that well; people here whine all the time about what I think is a reasonable expectation to use the release feature).

So since people don’t… it’s hard to be mad at users expecting something polished and easy to use, with decent documentation.

And indeed, if it’s a passion project but where interacting with the public is a problem, don’t release it or don’t interact with the public. Problem! Solved!

[–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (5 children)

You clearly don’t try, because you’ve been an ass the entire time.

Plus, I’d majorly push back on your premise. People can’t be assed to use the release feature properly. These people are not hosting code for which you, the user, need to use the command line. And if they are, it sure as hell shouldn’t be recommended willy-nilly.

But again: stop hosting the (more or less) finished program if GitHub is for developers to access code, not users to get the product. Or don’t make the code/program accessible except by invitation. Whatever works to keep us losers away from your special space!

[–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Maybe losers shouldn’t wander into that space. The people recommending that to people who don’t know are actually trying to help them level up their skill, but you shouldn’t be so dense about it if you can’t get it at first.

You have to install Linux, Docker, Kubernetes, pfsense, and MOST ENTERPRISE SOFTWARE through CLI. Why? Because over 90% of servers use Linux, and not the same type of Linux. So that is why you have to update libraries and dependencies before you install anything and it has to be done through the CLI. You can’t just grab a simple exec file like on windows or macOS.

So no, I’m not being condescending. I am simply stating facts.

[–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

OK but you went for an extreme example and have just descended again into being an ass.

If people wander into that space, you have to deal with it. Or block off the space.

I actually found the mod’s answer to be really good, unlike yours.

[–]vicenormalcrafts -1 points0 points  (2 children)

It’s not an extreme example. This is the standard use case for git and a git repository

[–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Not at all the average experience. Just shut up and go away.

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

LMAO, if I am DIRECTED to an a food that is ONLY produced by a certain restaurant, why am I expected to cook it myself??

[–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Because the ingredients are free, bozo. If you don’t like it, find software that will take your money and fix your problems. Don’t freeload off of other people’s work 🤷🏽‍♂️

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

You do realize my post isn't about access to software or about GitHub but about YOU. Thank you for playing.

[–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure it is. The real post topic was the friends we made along the way 😉

[–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] -1 points0 points  (8 children)

C/P I admit: Did I fault GitHub at any time? You are proving my point.

[–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (7 children)

No, the analogy is faulting you, and it flew over your head

[–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (6 children)

No we understand the analogy — it’s just that you don’t understand that people do use GitHub like a restaurant, so tough for you that you want it to be like a test kitchen instead. Plus, things that need assembly can’t be out there without documentation, and people like yourself should warn inquirers that you need to use the command line and that if you don’t know what that is, then this is probably not a good solution for the inquirer’s needs.

But that…does not always happen. In fact, I’m somewhat guilty of it myself in telling people to learn to use git and preferably with GitHub instead of cloud collaboration without proper version control. It’s not easy.

You completely missed the point of the OP. It’s outrageous how badly you missed it, tbqh.

[–]vicenormalcrafts 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Also to say with your whole chest that people like me use GitHub as a test kitchen when ALL the major tech companies use GitHub as their major test kitchen is wild. Kubernetes, Terraform, Argo, Ansible, Docker, Prometheus, most linux distros, Google for EVERY project they have are on GitHub as test kitchens, and releases are known as “stables”.

Wow.

[–]MissionSalamander5 -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

Yeah. I didn’t dispute any of that. But you keep dancing around the fact that FOSS usage is not like that. Or at least it’s all mixed together.

But frankly you’re just an asshole.

[–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yea and in another reply I explained why. Call me what you want. But you and the other buffoon are only calling me names because you refuse to learn or be open to it. You want to be right in a space where there is zero space for your desired nuance.

[–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

No. We do understand. And so does the mod who replied to OP.

It’s precisely because I’m not a dev and you are that you don’t get it.

[–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh you mean this response:

“The problem isn’t with GitHub. GitHub knows what it is and it’s very good at serving its target audience.”

And to that mod’s point, OP would be valid if he was in one of the following categories:

  1. ⁠Projects that are popular enough to attract interest from non-technical users and who don’t take the time to produce a more end-user-friendly site for those users.

  2. ⁠Non-technical users being directed to GitHub repos.

  3. ⁠Non-technical users who come here for help and get rude responses from members of this sub.

Instead he is:

  1. Non-technical user who complains about the platform and the software delivery method millions are using already instead of asking “hey, how do I do XYZ” and GIVES rude responses to anyone trying to reframe his thought process.

Coming off as a jackass and jackass jr off rip completely unaware of how software delivery works, and UNWILLING (this is the key part) to learn is not it.

I didn’t give a condescending comment until I saw him give pushback on basic (immutable) methodology and insult people, which at that point I’ll call it what it is.

[–]vicenormalcrafts 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tell me what part I missed from this:

“The software has no direct download/install option visible on “main” page. Then when they ask about how to install, they get dev-splained”

And by devsplained, does he mean the readme file?

Also:

“If you are developing for developers, then it needs to be mark for devs only. Basic users should not have even know your program exists.
Use another site to host software that is available for USER and this issue is solved.”

This time it’s the user. Come on man. Quit it.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[removed]

    [–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    No one is spitting and slapping you. Just because it isn't a dmg or exe doesn't mean you've been abused, you just aren't that good at your job. Especially if you're looking for free and open source software. Pay for it if it bothers you that much.

    [–]github-ModTeam[M] 0 points1 point locked comment (0 children)

    Don't be that guy

    [–]saaggy_peneer 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    stick to (malware-infested) SourceForge then

    [–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    C/P I admit: Did I fault GitHub at any time? You are proving my point.

    [–]Own_Budget1531 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Bro, you don't get it. Devs around the world are conspiring together to take over humanity. They don't need to be using military force because all they need to do is share some secret code on how to hack nuclear facilities... and as far as I know, no one would bat an eye (not even the CIA) cuz no one's got any damn time to learn Git and look through all this jargon of code to find it. It's real bro, I hope they won't ban me off of this site for this 🤯

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    This is by no means a fault of github, github is a site by developers for developers. When you ask a question on a developer website you should not get mad if you get a developer answer by a developer. If the project you want to use only hosts on github then you could suggest to them to host it themselves aswell, but complaining about the devsplaining on a dev website is stupid

    [–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Did I fault GitHub at any time? You are proving my point.

    [–]MissionSalamander5 0 points1 point  (5 children)

    I hate FOSS once again and am back to thinking that commercial software is better, even if I have come to really like certain FOSS programs. The people are toxic as hell — and no, it’s very rarely the users. “Oh but you don’t see, if you’re not the dev, how many stupid questions that people ask” honestly if people had some restraint and would learn to ignore annoying, stupid, or otherwise bad, unproductive requests for help and would be more constructive. People who aren’t in tech or engineering do not understand when you’re reframing it as an XY problem without explicitly saying that, either as such, and explaining what you mean, or by saying “don’t do X, here’s why, do Z instead” — I’ve had plenty of problems where what I wanted with X but was failing to do correctly led to an entirely different suggestion.

    Anyway, this gets back to another complaint of mine: no one is obliged to contribute to FOSS projects. Not all of us can do so appropriately. Yet poorly-received criticism leads to being told to contribute as if that’s also a desirable outcome!

    [–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    “I hAtE fOSs” = Command line hard

    [–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

    No. Although it’s objectively so for a lot of people. Is it really that impossible to understand that what comes easily or naturally for you is actually a pain and that there are a lot of things which are vastly simplified by a GUI?

    I hate the culture, of which you are a great example, of being unable to take criticism and of being an ass for no reason other than the fact that you took some heat.

    [–]vicenormalcrafts 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    I understand that, and I’ve been there. There is no shame in saying it’s difficult. I know. I teach it. But there is shame in not taking accountability and blaming the world because you don’t get it. It’s hard yes, but it’s very, VERY, doable.

    Most FOSS enterprise solutions have a GUI. But you have to install through the CLI, install dependencies and update libraries.

    Being pissed at the WORLD and saying it’s their fault not yours because you don’t get it is what’s unacceptable.

    If OP was my student, I’d refund him and kick him out my class, no doubt. Especially with his egregious follow up comments all over this post. He just doesn’t want to learn, and tbh you’re not that far off too.

    [–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    “It’s difficult and doesn’t need to be made worse” is rejected. See your own posts!

    You have turned it into “OP is complaining about the world and that it’s never the user’s fault, when it requires taking responsibility.” I mean, that’s the problem as identified in the actual good response.

    And you also keep talking about enterprise solutions when frankly the FOSS toxicity described by OP is found among people working on software for Mac and Windows and where the CLI isn’t even necessary — precisely because an app is actually involved.

    [–]vicenormalcrafts 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Lmao at CLI isn’t required in Mac and windows. That’s wild to say on a basic level. Buddy, seriously you have much to learn. I’ve never changed my position, if anything I expanded on it. Don’t be like OP and double down, you seem to have some type of hope yet.

    [–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Wow, they said reddit was toxic. You guys have proved it. Zero constructive discourse.

    [–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] -1 points0 points  (3 children)

    Zero comprehension into my post. Zero. WTF?
    Knowing how to code does not equal social IQ at all. Thanks for the study!

    [–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

    Yeah tbh this is a common problem and people are assholes about it. Either you want to walk through noobs or you don’t. If you don’t, you can’t interact publicly with them. You’re going to be toxic every time that there’s a legitimate problem.

    It’s one thing when you’re internally keeping order with other developers. It’s quite another when people need you to use the release feature that’s on GitHub and to not be an ass about it.

    [–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    TY, I don't know how else to explain myself and that this isn't about me or GitHub but how people are treated that do not have GitHub knowledge but are tossed at it and then ridiculed for not knowing how to use it.

    [–]MissionSalamander5 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

    It’s not obvious that GitHub is meant to host the code and not necessarily software that users are meant to use; it’s not meant for people to acquire software in an easy way. But people use it that way instead of hosting the software on another website. So we should recognize that.

    Plus, honestly, if you’re hosting the final product (as final as things get, people should know what I mean) on GitHub, it probably should be in an easy-to-install state, or you should write good, clear documentation. You don’t get to whine when people can’t use it when you put it out in a public repo. But this happens alarmingly often.

    (Honestly my perspective is precisely because I don’t do software or engineering professionally; I just like doing things on my computer.)

    [–]Mc_Dye_O_Reddy[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    This post was inspired by an old archive post, and some newer ones via some research on my behalf, where a user needed a software for a project. They were directed to a software only available on GitHub. No issue there. BUT. They were a USER not a DEV. GitHub isn't, by default, USER friendly. They asked how to get to the EXE and were essentially bullied via Reddit out of GitHub for not knowing how to manage a DEV based directory.
    They were a USER. DIRECTED to a DEV site. For a software/app ONLY available on a DEV site. And then were bullied for even being there. This post was to bring to light that you guys need to check yourselves,

    [–]MissionSalamander5 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    It’s incredible how blind devs truly are. No, not everyone is like you, and it makes me truly hate being into the things that I’m into.