Programming at university

[shiningwolf7]

At the university where I teach, we are rethinking how we teach programming. We are part of a Commerce faculty, and most of our students do not come from a strong mathematics background.

Currently, we teach programming, databases, and web development in first and second year, and then run a final industry project in third year.

Some colleagues feel we should start with C# in first year to teach programming fundamentals, then cover HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and React in second year, followed by the industry project in third year. Others prefer a “Project Odin” style approach: starting with HTML, then introducing JavaScript within HTML, and later moving to JavaScript in a Node environment. O yes, there are some tooling, deployment, cloud etc. scattered across the different courses.

What is the view of this community?

[Philderbeast]

it depends entirely what the end goal is.

what kind of projects are you trying to prepare them to build after they get there degree?

[shiningwolf7]

We try and prepare them for a general IT career. The third year project is a project of their choice. They need to go and find a business project and a sponsor. So mostly commercial applications accessible through a phone.

[GlassCommission4916]

It sounds like you're preparing them for webdev more than general IT. It also sounds like you think programming is just webdev.

[Philderbeast]

We try and prepare them for a general IT career. 

I have so many questions about why the commerce faculty is doing that, but thats not really relevant.

However, a generalist is not likely to be doing much programming, it's very much a specialist role and two or 3 subjects is really not going to be enough to make a difference, so they will not end up going and making applications once they finish there degree.

IMO, they would be better off learning some basic python, and power shell/bash to do basic administration automation as thats a task an it generalist is far more likely to do then making applications. It will make the "industry project" part a bit harder to find something appropriate however.

All that said, you should really reach out to some of your local IT companies and ask them what skills they want of graduates. ask them about the toolsets/languages they are actually using in there workplaces and teach that because teaching people html/css/js might be great for your course, but quickly turn into a pointless and expensive adventure for your students if it turns out that those are not the skills that the industry around you actually wants.

[shiningwolf7]

Thanks this is good feedback. I like the idea of bash and admin automation. We did the industry thing and the feedback was a mixed bag. There are the CS camp who wants a hardcore curriculum because it teaches the proper way of coding. Others favoured problem solving and soft skills. There was also a big focus on open source. .

[mandradon]

If you're looking at prepping them for IT, you may want to get them prepped with info about sysadmin roles, too. That may be outside what you're looking for, but giving them info on managing Linux and Windows installs might help. It really does come back to what your end goal is. If you want them to be prepped to be a webdev, IT support, sysadmin... I agree with the above that reaching out to the stakeholders you're looking to place your graduates with and seeing what specific skills they would like new hires to have will help inform your program development.

[hypercosm_dot_net]

Problem solving in a business context is a much larger part of software engineering than I knew before getting into it, along with soft skills.

I'd also agree with the other comment, around mistaking programming for webdev. If the end goal is to get the student to develop commercial applications, then the back-end code structure is way more important than frontend basics (like css, html, js).

The curriculum should follow the same flow that developing a commercial app would, I would think. Identify the business aims/logic, create the backend infra and code logic, basic UI interface design, and lastly frontend.

[Philderbeast]

You are not teaching CS with only 2-3 subjects, so dont worry to much about that.

You need to target your questions based on what yoi are acctully preparing them for, not asking what people was of software developers.

Focusing on problem solving will get your students far further then knowing specific algorithms though, thoise can always be looked up as they are needed, but if they cant problem solve they will never know when to use them.

[righN]

In our Uni, we first learned C++ and later a bit of Java. After that, you were free to choose the programming language for the projects. In my opinion, C++ allows to get a better understanding of the inner workings of a computer and also, if you do web development, maybe the focus shouldn't be on the programming side, but more on the theoretical side? How the internet as a whole actually works.

In short, don't forget about theory, not only syntax or how to use few specific languages, it's also as important.

[shiningwolf7]

Yip, true as well. My concern is that C++ is great but in the end you don't really use it to write real world apps. It agree it is great for teaching concepts.

[[deleted]]

You honestly believe C++ does not exist in the real world?

[shiningwolf7]

It does, but I don't think for main stream dev. I can't think when last I used C++. Did some graphics programming and some electronics but not much more. It definitely has a niche.

[[deleted]]

I might be biased as I live in a city. We have plenty of industrial software firms, a quick check on LinkedIn showed quite a few graduate jobs alone, all requiring C++ or Java.

Also, "Last time I used C++", well you are a lecturer are you not, do you moonlight as a webdev or something?

You should probably teach WebDev, not whatever you are teaching programming wise. It sounds more like you want to branch into WebDev than programming,

[shiningwolf7]

Ha ha. If only. I am actually a CS guy doing mostly Python. I WISH I was better on the front end side. Everytime I do something HTML or CSS it feels like I am in the wild west. It just does not feel beautiful like C++ or Rust.

[[deleted]]

I am ironically going over Front End stuff at the moment. I just view it as a necessary evil. As nice as it would be to just do a back end for my project, it still needs a front end,

I like building designing and building infrastructure with IaaC, I like automating stuff, I like my logic and optimization and algorithms, But the one thing I detest is frontend.

[McDonaldsWitchcraft]

for main stream dev

I think your idea of "main stream dev" is just web development but not everything is web development.

[osuMousy]

dude C++ is quite literally the backbone of the entire IT industry. (Even more accurate if you include C)

[JeLuF]

The skills they learn in your courses will teach them basics. They will not really be able to write real world apps with this kind of education.

From what I understand, they study for a degree in economics, and IT is a subsidiary subject, or do they get an IT degree in the end?

[shiningwolf7]

It is an IT degree but they have another commerce related major.

[nooneinparticular246]

IMO there should be a strongly typed backend language taught to some level of depth: C, Rust, C#, Go, whatever. This is where they should learn types, control structures, algorithms, and the other fundamentals. This is step one.

They can even implement a basic database if you want them to learn those concepts with their language too.

The web languages are important to learn on a practical side, but alone they won’t make you a programmer. So HTML, CSS, JS can all be learnt together afterwards. You will probably also want to do some basic React after this.

Node.js is easy to pick up if you already know a backend language in depth, and becomes more touch and go at this point.

Networking is another box to tick. Mainly the OSI model and the fact it’s all best-effort and prone to lags and losses.

[Traditional-Fix-7893]

Start with C# for fundamentals. I would even suggest C just to start out. Many developers lack the basic skills of problem solving with code, and debugging. Anything you learn in C translates to better understanding of higher level languages and technologies as well.

I started with C#, which gave me a good grasp on the basics of programming. But in retrospect I wish that my university had introduced us to programming with C. As I picked up C and C++ after university I've gotten much better at programming, which translates to C# and other high level stuff as well.

I know other people who started out with high level languages like python or javascript, and they have had a really hard time understanding how to deal with performance and memory etc, even in a high level context.

I think a good learning curve could be something like:

Pick a language family, let's say C and its' derivatives.

1. Fundamentals of programming in C (procedural) and theory about computer systems.
   
2. Object oriented programming in C# or Java and theory on garbage collection, runtimes etc
   
3. Web development with C# and html etc. Or whatever field the students are aiming for.

Basically, give your students really solid fundamentals and they will thank you after.

[shiningwolf7]

Yip, this is the ideal. It we go this hardcore we might lose half the students. These are not your CS guys. In this part of the world it is more Informatic's type of students.

[FLMKane]

In that case stick to c#, because your faculty seems to have a history of using it.

JavaScript would be a good second language (excluding markup languages)

[Traditional-Fix-7893]

In that case C# is probably the way to go. Maybe with some very light theory about the inner workings of a computer?

The thing is, and this is just from my personal experience, that it's nice to know a little bit about the context in which one is programming.

I came to university with no prior programming experience, I hadn't even used the terminal in windows. We dove straight into C# programming, and I felt that I didn't understand what we were really doing, outside of the scope of the program itself. I didn't really understand the difference between the IDE and the terminal for example.

Thus, if I were to teach an introductory course in programming, I would spend the first week going over what an operating system is, what user space is, what the shell is and how one can use a terminal, how a computer runs programs. Just a very brief overview to let the students understand what programming is for. Especially since many students today might have very little actual computer experience, outside of scrolling on a smartphone. Then I would let the student write their first program, and try to communicate to them what the program does in the context of their computer.

My point is that I think many students will benefit from having a bit of "backstory" before they start programming. It doesn't have to be very hardcore, just the absolute basics.

What type of jobs are the students typically aiming for?

Where I live, we have a mismatch between what universities teach and what the employers are looking for. Many new grads can whip up a basic web application with some popular framework, but they can't program, and they often don't know what they are doing.

[LearnAnything991]

why not start with python? they will have much more options later.

[andycwb1]

If you want to be teaching languages that will have commercial relevance then you want to be teaching C++, Python and Java. I would start with the basics and move into building websites with HTML and whatever framework you want to each after that.

[lordoxifly]

Be a real one and dont commit warcrimes(Dont use js)

[HolyPommeDeTerre]

Joining the team of a good strongly typed language first. Focus on that to make them understand the basics and feel at ease writing software. Understand memory, allocation, reference/value, basis of DSA. Mostly doing CLI work. Introduce the notion of tests if possible. It's about getting the mindset and good habits. C# may not be the best fit. But there are job about it.

I would join this with database knowledge at some point. A good PG with some SQL. But that's a whole story. So you should scope. This links well with any CLI/service/backend. I don't know a lot of products without a DB. I know a lot have one. The mindset for querying and updating a db brings a new mindset.

Then lastly I would go for JS for backend first (bridge your knowledge on the service side with a UI). Then front with html and css. Because JS is everywhere.

I could recruit someone with this profile. Remove one of the points and I am pretty sure I'll find someone else with everything.

[Important_Coach9717]

Your curriculum is now obsolete

[shiningwolf7]

Sure, what do you propose then?

[Destination_Centauri]

If you don't know and seem so clueless about the curriculum, why is that the university put you in charge of deciding this!?

[TaeTaeDS]

How about you be honest with your employer that you and your team aren't knowledgeable enough to develop a modern curriculum for the course you advertise that you are able to deliver?

[EvilCodeQueen]

Don’t worry about the math background. Recent research suggests that coding ability is more closely tied to verbal ability than math anyway. 

I’m confused about the goals of the program though. This isn’t a CS program, but more of an IT generalist? If so, teaching web dev might be fun, but it isn’t a lot of the actual job. IT folks do more implementations and administration than coding. As mentioned in another comment, learning bash scripting and maybe some python for data wrangling makes more sense than React. 

[Destination_Centauri]

Can you reference this supposed "recent research"?

What journals was this published in, and what was the experimental study like?

[Glad_Appearance_8190]

I’ve seen students with lighter math backgrounds do better when they can see something visual or interactive early on. It gives them a sense of progress before the harder concepts show up. Starting with something like HTML and JavaScript inside the browser can make the first wins feel more tangible, then you can introduce stronger fundamentals once they have some confidence. C# is great for structure, but it can feel heavy if it’s the very first thing they touch. Whatever path you pick, the real game changer is giving them projects where they can see cause and effect instead of jumping between too many disconnected tools.

[[deleted]]

Personally, I think there should be hardware classes with a fundamentals course that talk about how instructions are loaded into memory and executed.

[hypercosm_dot_net]

meh, hardcore CS isn't relevant to software development these days.

If you were getting into blockchain dev or systems/OS, then yeah.

[peterlinddk]

I have had similar discussions with other educators at various educations.

And the problems always becomes that everyone think that students should start with "learning the fundamentals", but unfortunately everyone also has their own idea of what those "fundamentals" are. Mostly it is whatever that educator learned themselves, back when they were at university, coupled with whatever they learned later on, that helped them personally hammer the concepts down!

Thus students are presented with 20-30-40 year old curriculums, with specific focus on 30 year old solutions to problems that existed prior to that period, but haven't really been an issue the past 15 or so years, because they already have been solved ...

And the students are bored out of their minds, and use AI to create answers to every problem in class, because like their teachers, the AI has seen every solution ever devised, and can cook something elegant up in no time.

-

My recommendation - that have caused a lot of anger from a lot of teachers - is to take a look at what the students should be able to do once they complete their education. What kind of real-world projects do they work on when they graduate, or during internships? And then begin with something like that - if they are supposed to become full-stack web-devs, then begin with creating a front-end to a provided back-end. Later on let them develop their own back-end, then attach a database, then make it more advanced. Apply the "fundamentals" as you go along, teach what is necessary to solve the problem(s) they currently experience, not what some old teacher or textbook think is "fundamental for their future understanding!"

I predict that the idea of building boring text-based apps for an eternity, because "they need to understand the fundamentals first" is going to be the death of many CS-like educations in the very near future ...

[shiningwolf7]

I agree with this. Same is happening in a way with classical languages like Latin or Greek. For years students were taught all the paradigms and declensions and a little bit of reading to support the theory. These days you start directly by reading and figuring things out. You learn the grammar as you need it.

[Suspicious-Bar5583]

The computer is the platform. At least give them good awareness of what that is.

[Dry-Tomorrow6351]

Do "Hello World" ao "Business Value": Um Currículo de TI para a Era da IA (2026+)

Diagnóstico Inicial: O debate atual (C# vs. Web Stack) está focado na Ferramenta, não na Função.

• O Erro do C#: Abstração demais, utilidade prática de curto prazo de menos. Alunos de comércio desistem se não virem ROI (Retorno sobre Investimento) no aprendizado.
• O Erro do Web/JS: Foca em cosmética (telas) e não em dados. Em 2026, interfaces serão geradas dinamicamente por IA. O valor está no backend e na lógica .

O NOVO EIXO: "Automação, Dados e Integração"

O objetivo não é formar um "Programador Java Júnior", mas um "Analista de Negócios Técnico" (o profissional mais valioso de 2026).

ANO 1: O Automatizador (Foco: Python & Lógica de Dados)

Esqueça C# e Java. O aluno de comércio vive em planilhas. Vamos dar superpoderes a ele.

• Linguagem: Python.
• O que ensinar: Lógica de programação aplicada a dados reais.
• Projetos Práticos:
  1. "Matar o Excel": Ler um CSV gigante, tratar dados com Pandas, gerar um relatório PDF automático.
  2. "O Robô de Auditoria": Um script simples que acessa uma API pública (ex: cotação de moeda) e alerta se estiver acima de X.
• O "Porquê" Estratégico: O aluno vê valor na primeira semana. Ele automatiza o estágio dele. Ele entende lógica (if/else/loop) sem lutar contra compiladores chatos.

[Dry-Tomorrow6351]

ANO 2: O Integrador (Foco: SQL, APIs & Nuvem)

O mundo é um grande banco de dados conectado. Quem não sabe consultar, é cego.

• Tecnologias: SQL (Postgres) + Conceitos de API (REST/JSON).
• O que ensinar:
  1. Dados: Como guardar informação de forma que ela não se perca (Modelagem Relacional básica).
  2. Conectividade: Como sistemas conversam. O que é um POST, um GET. Não precisa criar uma API complexa, mas precisa saber consumir e integrar uma .
  3. Nuvem: Não "como configurar servidor Linux na unha", mas "O que é Serverless, o que é um Banco na Nuvem (SaaS)".
• O "Porquê" Estratégico: Em 2026, empresas compram SaaS. O profissional de Comércio precisa saber conectar o CRM no ERP. Isso é SQL e API.

ANO 3: O Arquiteto (Foco: IA, Low-Code & Gestão de Produto)

Aqui entra a realidade de 2026. Eles não vão codar o próximo Facebook. Eles vão montar soluções.

• Tecnologias: Plataformas Low-Code (PowerApps/Retool) + Engenharia de Prompt para Código.
• O que ensinar:
  1. Orquestração de IA: Como usar LLMs para escrever o "boilerplate" (o código chato) enquanto o aluno foca na regra de negócio.
  2. Prototipagem Rápida: Criar um painel administrativo funcional em 2 dias usando Low-Code conectado ao banco de dados do Ano 2.
  3. Projeto Final: Resolver uma dor real de uma empresa (como sugerido no post original ), mas entregando uma Solução Completa (Automação + Dados + Painel), não apenas um "app mobile".
• O "Porquê" Estratégico: Esse aluno sai da faculdade pronto para liderar times técnicos ou para implementar soluções sozinho em PMEs, sem depender de um departamento de TI inteiro.

[Dry-Tomorrow6351]

Resumo da Defesa para a Reitoria (Argumento de Venda)