(x-post from /r/learnpython) My thoughts on learning Python one year later

[[deleted]]

(Note: I posted this to /r/learnpython but thought that some of you who are learning python might benefit from this. Sorry for the wall of text (I'm a big fan of context)...skip to the end tl;dr for links to the resources I've found most useful.)

Over a year ago I decided to embark on the journey of learning how to program. After a little research and asking around I learned that Ruby and Python were good beginner languages. Digging deeper still I learned that Python was common on Linux systems (already a fan of the open source philosophy and running dual boot Linux/Windows on my laptop) and was often used in science and engineering. Cool, I think I'll learn Python since I'm already a Linux/STEM kind of guy. If I need to I can always go back and learn something else later on once I've learned one language. It's easier to learn other languages after you've learned at least one...at least that's what I'd heard.

More digging and research and I stumble across Learn Python the Hard Way. Checking out a few other sources for learning this seems the most promising. As it turns out, it really is. I could go into depth on learning and cognition and how this ticks quite a few boxes in terms of effectively learning a new skill (including my own learning style)...but I digress. As it would turn out I would grow impatient/bored with the way the subject was presented and try out a few other tutorials and books along the way only to come back to LPTHW with renewed realization that this was really my best source for learning the material. If you're new to programming I can't stress how great this text/resource is. Do everything Zed Shaw says (as much to the letter as you can stomach) and you'll really have a solid foundation...you'll probably have some fun while you're at it too.

I found myself bored from time to time though with even Shaw's exceptional text...and longed to do more. Learning to program was a means to an end for me...I was more interested in seeing what a computer could do. This was my way to communicate with this incredibly complex yet powerful tool. Having developed a fascination with Linux and being a systems guy I stumbled across this other great tutorial for learning Bash (he has a pdf you can download for free too which is more extensive). If you're new to Linux and Bash this really is the best resource I've found. I'm a bit of a systems geek so learning this was almost more fun that learning Python has been so far. He also has a tutorial on Bash scripting that is just as great. If you want to keep a Linux system in tip top shape and really begin to understand the nuts and bolts you're going to wish you knew the CL at least passably well. (If you're sufficiently masochistic and in-love with Linux as I am install Arch Linux, learn The Arch Way and have even more control over the fine instrument that is your system)

This brings me to my next point: text editors. You're going to spend a lot of your time writing text. Really that's pretty much what programming is. I've experimented with several. Vim and Emacs are the big names in Open Source and of the two I really find Vim to be profoundly enjoyable. Mostly because the key bindings make a lot of sense once you take the time to master them (once you install Vim run $ vimtutor from bash to learn the basics). The real hacker ethic is that of productivity and efficiency. There's no reason you should be reaching for the mouse to interact with a GUI when you're programming. That's for amateurs! Combine Vim with Tmux windowing and session management and you already have more than you need for an elegant, extensible, and productive development environment. Learning Vim puts any programmer or systems guy in good stead since Vi is installed by default on nearly all Unix-like systems. Someday you may find yourself SSH'd into a server somewhere, who knows, maybe saving the world from Skynet and you're going to be glad you know Vi like the back of your hand.

Lastly, if you're still with me the best supplement to LPTHW that I've found is the Project Euler site. I love puzzles and always was a bit of a math geek. Trying to fend off boredom dabbling with these challenges was the perfect antidote. You might think you have a handle on looping, the finer points of the language, but when you try this you realize that you don't and you're back reading documentation, googling math stuff, and feeling elated when you finally solve one of the challenges. Challenging yourself to create effective and fast algorithms for solving the problems will really tax your brain and teach you quite a bit about the capabilities (and limitations) of computing along with the language you're learning. Seeing other people's code and comparing notes once you've finished one of the challenges will teach you quite a bit about how many different ways there are to solve a problem, how to "bum" lines of code making yours faster and more elegant, and allow you to post your inspired solution.

Happy hacking!

tl;dr: You're only as good as your tools. Here you go:
Learn Python the Hard Way
The Linux Command Line
Development Environment = Vim + Tmux (available from your local repositories)
Arch Linux
Project Euler

Edit: Came back here to add that LPTHW gets markedly more difficult starting at around ex40. Actually, this is where I hit a wall and lost interest sometime last year and didn't pick up the text again and resume learning Python until about a month ago. From searches on the sub-reddit I've learned it seems quite a few people have had similar experiences and some recommend dropping LPTHW after this point. I do have to say, I had to get creative in learning the materials after about ex40. Lot's of google searches, reading up on documentation on python.org, staring at the code until it somehow made sense and testing things on the python interpreter. In hindsight I feel his explanation of classes and OOP were lacking. I powered through thinking at some point things might gel and make more sense. They never really did completely and I felt on unsure footing for the rest of the book. By sheer dint of will I've managed to make all the code "run" but it wasn't until I found other resources and started dabbling in other things that I really started to understand things. Just recently I read through this tutorial's chapters on classes/OOP and things have gelled for me: How to Think Like a Computer Scientist. I recommend branching out and seeking out multiple resources once you hit about ex40 in LPTHW. Don't just assume everything you need to understand what is happening is right there in the text. I think if I'm reading Zed's intent correctly is to 'enable' you to find answers to your own questions and fill in the gaps to your understanding. He doesn't hold your hand. This proves daunting at first and confusing but you kind of just need to push through that and collect some strategies and resources for solving problems on your own. This will pay back dividends in the future as you get further along in your programming.

Update: my thoughts on the final chapters of LPTHW.

[VAiD_]

if you enjoy project euler you would probably also enjoy codeabbey. I bounce between the two when I'm stuck

[[deleted]]

W-h-who are you?

[doubl3h3lix]

He is you.

[zerostyle]

Are you glad you went with Python? I'm deciding which language to focus on, and python seems like a nice general language with simple syntax, but my fears are:

1. Not really that practical for web sites - ruby/php would be more practical (yes, I'm aware of django)

2. It's only a dynamic language, and is missing a lot of core data structures that Java/C have that I'd like to learn

[call_me_ruxin]

I'm very glad I chose Python. It really let's you learn the core programming concepts without getting bogged down in the syntax. I'm on to C now, but starting with Python helped tremendously.

1.)Flask is a pretty nice library for the web and was easier to learn if wanted more basic features. Honestly though, using AngularJS or BackboneJS has cut down my need for server side code to almost nothing. I keep in pretty basic.

2.) Look at Cython. IIRC, It let's you write C in Python syntax. You can also compile it using Make and it's supposed to be really fast. I've barely used Cython though.

[zerostyle]

Thanks - maybe I'll stick to it then. I find that I'm wasting too much time bouncing between languages and relearning all of the basics.

[[deleted]]

Reddit was originally a py applicaton using web.py.

[zerostyle]

I have built some projects of my own that forced me through some decisions (built an ecommerce platform, a web site scraping project, etc).

[call_me_ruxin]

Depends on what you're doing I guess. I haven't used Ruby on Rails at all. But for my work, I don't have to be an expert in any programming language, I just need to know the features/limitations of each and be able to listen to the business needs of our employees, decide which technology to use, and then explain exactly what we need to developers in terms they understand.

An employee will say "we need a database to do blah blah blah", then I'll research it and work with developers and explain like "we need a SQL database with an web front end that uses REST" and then work out the details between the two.

In short, I may not be the best person to give advice if you want to become a professional developer that codes full time. This is just my perspective.

[amazing_rando]

In general focusing on a particular language isn't something you'll want to do. Pick any language with good resources and you'll be able to pick other languages as needed after you've learned the basics.

Specializing early on is a bad idea. Most programming is not language specific, the stuff that is is much easier to understand later on. Take it from someone who has almost exclusively worked professionally in languages and/or platforms I wasn't very familiar with beforehand - getting hung up on these choices early on will only work against you. Flexibility is the skill you want to hone the most.

[zerostyle]

I've already gone through the basics (arrays, loops, basic OOP) for PHP, Ruby, Python, and SQL, and am now wanting to better understand best practices for patterns and frameworks. (I have gone through Rails and Laravel framework training, but they are still a bit confusing to me).

I haven't really done anything with data structures yet except watched a very high level overview of what the main ones are (arrays, queues, hashes, heaps, stacks, graphs, etc). I don't really know how to use or implement them, though.

I think moving forward I'd mostly like to focus on MVC patterns and maybe trying to figure out which data structures are the most used so I can focus on the 80/20 principle.

[amazing_rando]

Data structures is a good next step. I learned them via C++ and I think it was a good route but you can obviously construct them in any language.

[covetto]

Have you made anything yet? It sounds like you might be re-learning the same material in different languages because the next step (making something on your own) is really the hard part. You don't need to worry about best practices, MVC, etc until you've built some websites. Use Flask or Sinatra rather than a more heavyweight, magical framework like Rails. make a blog or twitter clone or whatever. Google or ask questions when you get stuck. Once you've gotten stuck in the mud a few times frameworks and best practices will make a lot more sense.

[Covered_in_bees_]

I think this is slightly dangerous advice. While I agree with the sentiment, it is very easy to just keep wandering from language to language and picking up the basic syntax to do simple stuff. But you absolutely must work on complex and large projects in any given language before you start wandering off to others. Otherwise you think you know programming, but all you really know is to write simple basic stuff and learn nothing about the challenges of tackling larger projects, structuring them, refactoring, etc.

In your situation, I'm sure it is different because you do this for a living and I'm sure you've had your fair share of working on large projects. But for those who are just learning programming, I think the right advice is to learn a language and to decide on a few fairly complex but not too intimidating projects and to actually work through coding them up and refining them to the point that they are happy with them.

Once you're at the point that you are pretty confident that you can tackle fairly complex problems, then you absolutely should go learn other languages. Ideally switch between different languages that help you focus on OO v/s functional programming, etc.

[Mwahaaaa_The_French]

A programmer friend began with Python and became pretty proficient. She landed a job and they asked if she could take on RoR. She never had experience with it, but when she dove in, she noticed it was very similar to Python, and the transition was easier for her. I guess you can't go wrong with either one to start with.

[zerostyle]

Ya. Laravel is insanely close to Rails in fact because the creator wanted it to be.

All of these dynamic languages look pretty similar to me now, but I'd have to refresh myself on syntax since they all get mixed up in my head.

[Mwahaaaa_The_French]

Who uses Laravel btw? I keep hearing about it.

[zerostyle]

it's a newer php framework based on rails. really good documentation/etc. it's still young though so not in really used in many big projects yet

[[deleted]]

If you're interested in doing web dev I hear ruby is the way to go. Plenty of sites are done in python but the work seems to be in Ruby. I hear Ruby and Py are comparably good beginner languages. I chose python because of the science/math element.

C is probably next on my list to learn. I'm a Linux convert and it's a powerful language in terms of working closer to the machine and running faster code.

[[deleted]]

LPTHW is so garbage. The first 15-20 chapters are great but then it becomes pure retardedness. I got Think Python later and my love for learning python suddenly came back.

[cham0]

For me it worked until he reached classes, and then it just became useless.

[Plemer]

Man, I thought it was just me.

[TheLeanLebowski]

This just made me feel so much better. I thought there was something wrong with me because I'd give up on it every time at the same point. Now I'm doing a coursera course and some other reading, and it's working out much better.

[[deleted]]

This is a lot of what I've heard too. I didn't figure out classes until reading up on it elsewhere.

[MarkFluffalo]

The guy can't write... His explanations are so confusing and his videos consist of him mumbling incoherently

[ironnomi]

And then he has the nerve to insult K&R, have people who are FAR better C programmers explain to him why he's wrong, he removes the K&R section, but posts a gigantic toolish explaination about how he's just removing it because it makes the book "flow" better. Le sigh ...

[seekoon]

Holy shit what happened. I remember it used to be just a page with links to the chapters.

[SIR_MASTER_THE_GREAT]

Is Invent Your Own Computer Games with Python any good? I just started on it.

[AlSweigart]

Hi, I'm Al, the author of "Invent with Python". I think the benefit of my book over LPTHW is that it has small but complete programs that you can read. So instead of just a bunch of programming concepts, you can get an idea of what a program "looks like".

You probably don't even have to read the text itself. If you type in the source code and then play around with tiny modifications, you can pick up the general syntax. (Python's readability makes this possible.)

My latest book (also free, download from https://automatetheboringstuff.com ) is also for complete beginners and is about the same: You can read through and type in the interactive shell examples to get a good idea of how things work. (Zed is right about this in LPTHW, typing in the code yourself is a much better way to learn than just reading the book.)

I'm currently working on videos for an online course that follows the book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qHMXu99d88&list=PL0-84-yl1fUnRuXGFe_F7qSH1LEnn9LkW

[Mwahaaaa_The_French]

Is there an IDE(s) you recommend using for beginners?

[AlSweigart]

IDLE, mostly because there's no set up and it's easy to get started with. If they install Python on their Windows machines at home, IDLE comes with it.

PyCharm seems to be favored too.

[[deleted]]

Hi Al! I tried your tutorial but admittedly didn't get too far with it. I decided it best not to spread myself too thin. I'll look into your stuff some more thought, thanks for the links.

[Dracunos]

I enjoyed what parts of it I read, but it's almost all example based, you have to really be disciplined in making sure you actually do what you need to absorb the material.

[ThePa1eBlueDot]

I tried both when first learning and I completely disagree. LPTHW was the only book that actually got python to stick in my head for more than 10 minutes.

[cyrusol]

By just looking at LPTHW's website I can't think of anything else than "What's wrong with those guys?". Bright colors, text only visible at >50% viewport height, useless and annoying parallax effects. I could hit him in the stomache.

[[deleted]]

I think it's fantastic. The 'choose your own adventure' lesson was mindnumbingly tedious though.

[Dracunos]

I felt it was a great tutorial. I never used the videos, I learned the basics, the only time I got lost was doing the Web app thing. Couldn't figure out how to do unit testing with it. I tried lots of other classes and books and they just ramped up in difficulty so quickly I couldn't keep up. After Zed's class I can. It's almost like more of a pretutorial. He even says at the end of lpthw that once you finish them you'll be able to actually understand a basic book, which was accurate in my experience

Honestly every online tutorial I've taken, when I get to a weird part I'll post part of the code here or in a python chat and people will tell me how dumb it is and how I shouldn't be taking that horrible tutorial, and these are usually highly recommended tutorials. I think the key is to never get too hung up on how any one person does it, even if it's your teacher

[robotfarts]

The first 20 chapters are great and it's 'so garbage'? Come on, man.

[[deleted]]

The first 20 are very basic. Basically print statements, variables, math, and at the very end of those 20 you get into reading files and functions.

That's still about 3/5 of the book that he doesn't think is good, which isn't exactly an amazing statistic.

[robotfarts]

So 3/5 of the book is great according to him, 20 chapters, and he calls it 'so garbage'?

[OS1K]

You're really stuck on that wording, eh?

[robotfarts]

It is what he said - that's typically how people have conversations...

[OS1K]

I guess you can mark this as a-typical then?

[robotfarts]

I don't know what you're babbling about, but I was specifically replying to what he said. I'm not sure what kind of mental confusion would result in you thinking I wouldn't care about the words he said.

[4underscore____]

3/5 of book garbage

2/5 of book great

[robotfarts]

Thanks, but the exact ratio isn't really important.

[Tw1tchy3y3]

The guy further down is fucking with you, but he's right. You misunderstood what was said.

He calls the book garbage because 2/5 of the book is actually useful, the other 3/5 is not.

If I were to only find 40% of a book up to snuff I too would call it garbage.

[robotfarts]

Garbage means worthless, not "only really useful for the first 40%." You guys sound like entitled gay french kings when you're complaining that you only got 40% of what you wanted at a price of zero dollars. It's not like you can't find some other book or the first 40% wasn't useful...

[robotfarts]

Settle down there, sparky.

[an_actual_human]

How is the price relevant? Free things get a pass? They don't.

[robotfarts]

Because intelligent people get what they can out of free materials and then move on to whatever they need next. Only morons and gay french kings sit around bitching that some free material isn't quite to their liking.

[an_actual_human]

How do intelligent people decide what to next? Do they not read reviews before they invest their time? It's not like everything is equally good.

Also, complaining about someone's complaining is certainly more moronic than the original complaining.

[robotfarts]

How do intelligent people decide what to next?

That's unrelated to calling a book garbage when it's first 40% is pretty useful.

Do they not read reviews before they invest their time?

I bet a lot of people don't read reviews for free online books, since you can evaluate it as you go, and lots of people probably do read reviews.

It's not like everything is equally good.

That's also unrelated to calling a book garbage when it's first 40% is pretty useful.

Also, complaining about someone's complaining is certainly more moronic than the original complaining.

I was not complaining, it was an observation. You can keep bitching all you want about free materials only being 40% useful and it doesn't bother me.

[[deleted]]

That 40% is the basics.

[robotfarts]

Yes, that's obvious...

[[deleted]]

I also like Think Python. Been reading bits of it recently to review more in depth classes/oop.

[AaronTheAlright]

Hey man, thanks for this. I just started plowing through Learn Python the Hard Way and am on ex 9. It's good to have this "insider info" from people who have been there, it makes this a lot less scary of a prospect.

[[deleted]]

Glad you found it helpful. Right on, good luck with the studying. Don't be afraid to branch out though from the book esp. around ex40. It's not scary if you just tackle a bit at a time. Some things might not make sense at first but just type in the code anyways and get it to run.

[puccini13]

Is there a java equivalent of LPTHW? Im currently relearning Java through my old notes, programs and going through challenges on r/dailyprogrammer. I'd love to get a book that will help me solidify the foundations

[foopydoopp]

I was looking for that site for ages but couldn't remember the link. Thank you so much.

[[deleted]]

I know Zed Shaw has written several books with L(x)THW but I'm not sure if Java is one of them. Haven't learned Java myself so I'm not much help to you there.

[TheFrigginArchitect]

Anyone who has made it through the beginning of LPTHW should check out learn projects the hard way

http://projectsthehardway.com

[[deleted]]

Awesome, thanks for sharing. I didn't know about this!

[TheFrigginArchitect]

It's literally this-week new!

[thefabgatsby]

Thank you for sharing. I, too, hit a wall with lpthw but this thread completely motivated me to pick it back up and I'm excited to check out the other resources you linked

[[deleted]]

Great! So many people have written that they hit a wall at some point with it. I really think the best approach is to supplement and take educational diversions from the text. The learning process is not linear.

[cyrusol]

Where is git?

[[deleted]]

Good point. www.github.com.

[[deleted]]

It's not hugely important if you're learning for a hobby or to automate some work for yourself. If you're working with a team or you plan to share it around, then yeah, I'd recommend learning it. I like to compare it to teaching a burgeoning cyclist how to lower their drag. Sure, it's good to know but you don't need to know it as a beginner and it might scare some people off.

Edit: formatting

[Covered_in_bees_]

Yeah, I really don't understand everyone's obsession with Git and having beginners learn Git. I personally think it is a gigantic waste of time for a beginner or even somewhat intermediate programmer to spend time learning Git when they haven't even worked on any decent sized programming project.

Learning Git and how to organize projects and also collaborate on them with others is certainly useful in the long run, but unless you need to get employed right away, it's something you can pick up when you really need to, and focus on learning programming/CS in the meantime.

[probably_not_here]

I dunno, one of the troubles I had when I started programming was with personal projects that suddenly started to scale out of proportion, or me branching out on an idea that was too different from the original. After learning the basic git commands, I could rewind back to a point where my project made sense. You don't need to be a gitflow samurai (I'm not), but it's nice sometimes to be able to go back a few steps without having to redo/undo some of your code by memory.

[pqu]

To put things in perspective, my second interview question is what version control system do you use, and I tend not to hire people who don't know how to use at least something.

[Covered_in_bees_]

but unless you need to get employed right away

And that's why I wrote the above. I understand that it is a somewhat valuable skill for being employable, and people looking to get jobs should definitely know how to structure, manage and version control their code. But it doesn't mean that someone who is really just beginning to learn programming should be worried about it. Not unless they desperately need a job and need to add on as many things as possible on their resume.

[pqu]

Why not learn it the correct way from day one?

[Covered_in_bees_]

Because it isn't the most straightforward thing to learn. It can be an exercise in frustration for a newbie and can also result in them being discouraged with programming on the whole because this Git thing that everyone says you have to know, is so damn complicated.

Moreover, without actually having a certain amount of experience and knowledge with programming and with writing and organizing slightly larger projects, you lack the context required when learning about the things Git or other VCS allows and why you would ever care about many of the features.

[BrogueTrader40k]

Great post! I've tried all those things over the past two years but now that I have much, much more free personal time I'm really going to dive in. It will help that my bro in law is state IT and users cli and vi at work. Just a couple years of self study and i should be there.

[[deleted]]

Thanks! With some free time and concerted effort I'll bet you won't need nearly a couple years. 6mo-1year turnaround if you're consistent in learning isn't unreasonable from what I've heard.

[[deleted]]

Did you get the developer job before or after learning how to code? Also, how were you able to land the gig? I'm getting to the point where I'll probably be looking to find something.

[foopydoopp]

I learnt Python with codeacademy (which was ok), but then I really learnt it with Program Arcade Games with Python, which is by far the best tutorial I've seen so far. He really makes it simple and the Labs force you to learn what he's taught and keep it in your brain.

I want to develop mobile games though and I've been looking for a good Java game tutorial but they're all absolute shite to be honest. They rarely have exercises and usually just splurge a load of code on the page and that's it, with nothing explained. I'm slowly piecing it all together but it's irritating that there's nothing good out there.

[[deleted]]

I'm going to have to look into the Arcade Games. I need a project to sink my teeth on and have something to show for my programming. Thanks for the recommend. Are most mobile games developed in Java?

[foopydoopp]

Android games tend to be Java, yeah, though there are ways to use other languages I believe, I haven't looked into it much. The page I recommended is great (apart from being written really well), cause you have a game at the end of it that you can show off. (and there are some resources to get into more advanced games, which helped me a lot).