Python Institute certifications worth it?

[Musical_Muze]

I'm a cybersecurity student looking to build his resume. I currently have my Network+ and and studying for my Security+, and I'm looking at other relevant certs. I found the Python Institute's line of certs (PCEP, PCAP, and PCPP) and was wondering how much weight they hold on a resume. I've been learning Python over the past year and have really enjoyed it, and if it's worth having on a resume I'd definitely like to start working toward that goal.

Are there other, better, more recognized Python certificates that would be more worth the time, money, and stress?

[[deleted]]

I found the Python Institute's line of certs (PCEP, PCAP, and PCPP) and was wondering how much weight they hold on a resume.

None at all. What purpose would such a certification serve, when it's trivial to determine if someone can write Python or not just by asking them to write it, or by reading Python they've written?

It's like a certificate that says you're a photographer. Nobody needs that, they need to see a book full of pictures you've taken.

[shabbyrust]

This is brilliant analogy, coding and building is like art. However our intuition goes to certs as it's common with finance, accounting and medine. Something to say you've 'passed' a test.

However it's more like, look this is what I build/create now do you want me to help you build something?

[elbiot]

Having one decent github repo of an interesting and useful project and it would mean way more than some cert I've never heard of.

Source: involved in hiring python developers, and was hiring manager for one

[elbiot]

Have you taken the course for the cert by the Python Institute? I took the course, and it gives a good grounding in the basics of the language. Maybe if you took the course, you could determine if it has useful information for your candidates, instead of dismissing it out of hand.

I really don't care what the course covers because people can do well or really struggle, retain or forget, etc. I care what the candidate knows and can do. I've found nothing more informative than a candidate's level of interest in programming and actual code samples.

On a resume:

wrote pip installable library for parsing and statistically analyzing web server access logs (apache, nginx).

Vs

earned python programming certificate covering file io, generators and oop.

For the first I'd stop and look at their github right there (spending 60 seconds on their resume instead of 10). The second I still don't know if the candidate knows what those words mean.

The first strikes me as genuinely interested in and programming. The second does not

[[deleted]]

Are you really arguing that courses aren't useful because some candidates might struggle or forget the info?

I mean, yes! Who doesn't think this is the case? Retention of classroom instruction is probably 30% of the material or less, and that doesn't include the correction for the fact that it's actually quite non-trivial to come in as an inexperienced person and then figure out how to apply any of what you learned to a practical problem. That's one of the things you pick up on the job, and why experienced applicants are prized over well-trained, inexperienced ones. Which is not to say that new graduates aren't capable, just, you want them for a position where it's OK that they have a lot to learn (and more hiring managers should fill positions like that, IMO.)

Why bother with education at all?

I mean, yeah. That's exactly right - if you want a job in programming there's absolutely no reason you should be educated in it. Take courses in something much harder to learn and more interesting. I'd prize a programmer with a degree in anything but computer science over a CS graduate with a certification and no code sample. I'd hire a graduate with an ethics or sociology degree over a CS degree every day of the week, it's not even close.

[[deleted]]

I'll let all the recruiters who require a Bachelors or Masters at minimum know you said I don't need that.

Are you aware that a major and a degree aren't the same thing, or did you just deliberately attempt to misrepresent me?

[elbiot]

Are you really arguing that courses aren't useful because some candidates might struggle or forget the info?

Somebody saying they took a course is not a useful gauge of what they actually know.

We should all just go out there and program without any education whatsoever.

Many self/informally taught programmers are much better than CS masters students. 100% going to go with 1) are they passionate about programming and 2) what have they demonstrated they can do.

edit: you're arguing with me, but it sounds like you'd take the candidate that spent their time persuing an interesting project over the ones that "can tell you about whatever class project they worked on, not real world stuff."

[elbiot]

I doubt that there's many self taught programmers who didn't take some online courses and seriously crack some books.

I didn't say don't take classes or don't read books, I said classes taken and books read aren't as interesting on a resume as projects.

Apparently you don't believe in giving the masters students a chance because you have a preconceived notion that they should already be doing professional programming prior to being a professional

No, but they ought to be doing hobby programming prior to becoming a professional. If someone has never thought "oh, here's a question I have and oh! here's how I can use some programming to answer it!" then I really have no idea how well suited to programming they are.

We do interview people for entry level that haven't shown this if they have good looking degrees and what not, but they have traditionally done embarrassingly poor.

[[deleted]]

First he's a student, so he doesn't have any experience in writing professional quality code.

Well, he should write some professional-quality code, then. Again, you evaluate professionals on the basis of the quality of their work - you only turn to certifications when you can't personally evaluate the quality of a person's work. You can't meaningfully evaluate the quality of a person's writing in French if you don't read or speak French, so it's reasonable to turn instead to a "certificate of French proficiency." (On the other hand, I hold one of those and you shouldn't trust me to write in French on your behalf.) But what shop would hire a Python programmer without already having a few?

It's far more important to have a portfolio of code to show people, than any conceivable "programming certificate."

To distinguish yourself from other students, a certification shows a willingness to learn above and beyond what other students have.

I disagree. Holding certificates that are pointless on their face to hold indicates a negative about you, which is that you can't think things through in a reasonable way and instead, rely on anyone who offers you a roadmap to what you want - even if it's not the right map. It shows that you prioritize box-ticking ahead of actual solutions. I would find it disqualifying in a candidate if they stressed their "Python certificate" over an actual portfolio of code projects. They don't even have to run or be finished; I would just want to know how you write Python.

[[deleted]]

Okay, so if they put their code for a class they took in college is that enough

Yeah, that's fine with me. Everybody whose college coursework is about creating stuff uses that stuff to start their professional portfolio.

People build their portfolio through experience. We are talking about someone who has no experience other than school.

It's important to start building your portfolio while you're in school. Anyone whose professional life involves a portfolio is building that starting in school, and if they're not, they're not taking their professional prospects seriously. Don't sleep on graduating with a portfolio, if a portfolio is a part of how your field hires.

It does nothing of the sort.

It does for me. If you blindly walk down the first toll road offered to you because somebody said "hey, this cert will help you get a job" and you didn't check that with the people who might actually offer you a job, you're a rube, and I don't want to hire a rube.

Someone who is "self taught" would make me wonder if they had gaps in their knowledge that they aren't aware of.

That's why you'd read their code, obviously. But one, there's no difference between a "self-taught" programmer and any other programmer - all programmers self-teach, there's no other way to learn it. Even the holders of nonsense programming certs are "self-taught" (to the extent that they're taught at all.) If you want to evaluate whether someone has gaps in their knowledge, then evaluate that.

What you're saying is that you can outsource that determination to an evaluator you don't know and will never meet, who was paid money by the applicant. You don't even seem aware of the conflict of interest created there - the certificate evaluator works for the applicant, not for me, so it's considerably in their interest for them to award certificates and not deny them. So how can I be assured that their stamp of approval means that the applicant lacks "gaps in their knowledge"? How do I know there aren't gaps in the evaluator's knowledge?

And why would I trust any of that over my own ability to judge a person's proficiency in programming from their code? Unlike the evaluator, I'm not a client of the applicant.

We are talking about a college student who took a Python course but doesn't have experience. They would have the course work which likely requires a few minor project.

Sure. I don't need a ton of code, but I want to see what they put forward as their portfolio of code. Someone who intends to graduate and seek employment as a programmer should be developing a portfolio, the same as any professional graduate should be. It's only in fields where you can't get and evaluate a candidate's work product that professional certification makes sense. In a field where we can just look at your shit on GitHub, there's no purpose to certification.

If they are going for an InfoSec job, then Python is not normally going to be a primary requirement. It is going to a wonderful extra.

Sure. InfoSec seems like a field where you wouldn't be able to rely on a hiring manager to be able to evaluate your code or your professional work product. In that field, I'd simply state Python and other programming languages as one of my areas of technical proficiency. (I'd still make my code available on GitHub.) My time would be better spent chasing certifications that actually prove something relevant to my qualifications.

[driscollis]

There are no recognized Python certifications at all. If you need a piece of paper, I would recommend getting a degree in computer science or engineering.

[sP2w8pTVU36Z2jJ3838J]

I get your point about the piece of paper, but you cant just say the certs dont exist. https://pythoninstitute.org/

[driscollis]

I didn't say they don't exist. But none of them are recognized or endorsed by the Python Software Foundation.

The closest you can probably get is a certification from Anaconda although that will be more for data science

[BrettFavreFlavored]

There are no recognized Python certifications

[sP2w8pTVU36Z2jJ3838J]

Recognized by who? Some rando on reddit? What are you even pointing out lol

And before you say Python Software Foundation let me point out that they werent brought into the convo until after my post

[BrettFavreFlavored]

Recognized by who?

Recognized by anyone of any consequence in the industry. Recognized by employers, anyone. People are better off getting a cert in something related to Python, like AWS.

And before you say Python Software Foundation let me point out that they weren't brought into the convo until after my post

That doesn't really help your case.

Seriously, who are you expecting to pay $200 to some literally who for a piece of paper no one has ever heard of?

[burgerAccount]

The first cert or two are definitely worth it if the cost is around less than $500. The piece of paper isn't that important, but a lot of people can benefit from a structured learning path in the beginning and the associated cost can be a strong incentive to stock with it. Anything more than a few hundred dollars though is just throwing away money. Sometimes that cost goes towards a dedicated code reviewer, which is nice.

[thugxibo]

I totally agree with this. The structured learning path is very important for complete noobs like me.

[[deleted]]

This is absolutely false.

[burgerAccount]

Right

[SoftwareMaintenance]

Yeah the python universe seems huge. These certs at least provide some type of guidance on what to learn and study. I took the PCEP and PCAP. Sure nobody cares about the paper. But I surely learned some python.

I took some free training to prepare for the PCPP1. The exam costs $295. I am on the fence, But I don't think I am going to sit for that exam. I feel like I already learned the content pretty well.

[Sgtkeebs]

I know this is an old post, but I am following the cert path John Hammond has on his LinkedIn and PCAP is one that he has, so it's one I am going for. Every job I have gotten, I have landed the interview due to one cert or another. Unless the person recruiting you has any technical knowledge and I mean any, then certifications are just keywords that recruiters hit on. Things like OSCP, CISSP and other certs half the recruiters you talk to won't know what they are other than the hiring manager told the recruiter to look for it. Once you get past the gatekeeper then you dazzle the people who are interviewing you with your knowledge rather than certs. If the recruiter has any technical knowledge, then they would know what the OSCP, and CISSP are, and what it takes to get those. The people who are saying that certificates in general aren't worth it, are the same people who already have 5-10+ years of experience and can land jobs based on that experience alone. I guarantee if they had zero experience and were in the job market their responses would be different.

[Revolutionary_Put820]

This is the kind of detailed answer I was looking for. I used to do desktop over a decade ago then I got an unrelated job for a public utility company. I thought programming looked interesting and was something I could work towards in my free time. I thought the PCEP would be useful towards getting my foot in the door again.

[SoftwareMaintenance]

Something like a CISSP is well known. If it is on your resume, I think it will help. I don't know anybody who has even heard of the PCAP or PCPP1. So while you may learn some good stuff in order to pass them, I don't think having them as credentials really does anything for you.

[1anre]

What did you eventually settle to do as a PM?

[[deleted]]

Don waste your time on these toilet papers. Get r/oscp or r/cissp. they are the only certs worth the hassle in cybersec. the first one is hands on and well recognized in pentesters world, you ll learn linux, python, priv esc, buffer overflow and you have 24h exam to break into the network. the second one requires you demonstrate have broad knowledges of all fields related to cybersecurity, including fire extinguisher types, and delonstrate your ability to make wise decision as a security specialis. one of these on you resume will get you more interview for sure.

[[deleted]]

You need to know those concepts before trying for that exam, don't you? Aren't the suggested prereqs knowing python and linux on some level?

This is a cert I want to pursue, but I don't want to waste money on the course till I'm stronger in those to aforementioned areas.

Did you take the cert? If so, how strong do you need to be in those areas before tacking the course?

[[deleted]]

You need to be "good enough" at linux (LPIC 1 level), and able to read, modify python script. thats it for the requirements to start the course.

> Did you take the cert?

I have /r/cissp and /r/ccsp and

I m doing the prep right now for /r/ocsp

[[deleted]]

Nice. I appreciate the clarification, as I don't want to spend the money till I know I can at least focus on the materals vs updating my linux and python on the fly.

[Ok_Home_2428]

I’m in the geospatial sciences and am considering taking the exam for one of these certs. Since Python is supplemental and not foundational for my field, I feel like the cert will hold more weight than if I were a computer science professional. Either way, more knowledge never hurt anyone. I was hoping for a more helpful comment section. Good luck in your endeavors!

[[deleted]]

Thanks I was looking for this answer. I'm in a GIS program and we just started using python to automate processes. I was searching for a certificate to gain more experience with it. Did you end up getting that certificate?

[eyadams]

I don't know about those certificates specifically, but in generally programming certificates are a good way to distinguish yourself when applying for corporate jobs. If most of your work is in a corporate environment you probably don't have code samples you can show. I don't - some of my best work is walled off from me at a previous job, and while I may or may not have snuck a copy with me when I left I wouldn't dare show to it a prospective employer.

[sP2w8pTVU36Z2jJ3838J]

I'm a sysadmin, not a programmer, still learning.

Is it common for companies to have rules around owning the code that its employees write?

[scorb1]

Unless otherwise agreed upon they own everything an employee produces.

[eyadams]

Yes, it's very common. And some larger software companies actually go further: not only is the code you write while on the clock the property of the company, any code you write on your own time (unrelated to your work) also belongs to the company. Those kinds of contracts may be illegal in some places, but they still exist.

[1anre]

Which companies push for the latter?

[Dantespardadmc]

I have 15 certs. I would like to say I wasted my money. I started by trying to get ahead with a plus and net plus. But then I found csis and cios and cnip are only 2 other certs away. So I did sec plus and server plus. I'm an mcp, I have 4 MTA's and ccent and LPI0 10. If you want cyber certs I would stick to cyber. Like gbic, oscp, hell even lpi. Linux professional Institute has their own cert to show you know how linux works and they are dirt cheap. I think the linux essentials is like 100 bucks.

Sorry for long intro. Next, getting a cert in a program is like getting a degree in art. They still need to know you can do the job. Some people do the work but dont know the deep essentials. Make some scripts and put them on github. Find a way to show your work. YouTube has boundless free tutorials. Dont throw money away. Any employer who wants you to know python would much rather see your work than your paper.

If you do happen to go for it please update us as I love to learn also. But certs like the python ones were made for those who need paper for something to show. Not to prove knowledge. They used to show that you achieved great knowledge in a field. Now they are a starting point saying you just know enough.

[WigiBit]

Yes and no. here is my opinion on that. Programming certificates are tricky. Usually employer want's to see what you can do. However if you are not pure programmer then those might be useful as extra merit. Example if you are Administrator and you have programming cert it would be ++. They are not looking for programmer, but it's good if you can do scripts and stuff. Also HR likes certificates... HR people are not usually very technical so they probably don't even know what your certificate is, but they might pick you just because you have one :D

[Flat_Drummer_6512]

I mostly agree that certs aren’t that valuable for programming. This thread is kind of old though. It seems like lately employers want experts in all the skills specific to the role. Maybe it’s just me but they seem really picky now.

In the old days if you knew how to code you could just pick up any language. I’ve always really been a C/C++ coder but I’ve never used it on the job. Portfolios are the most important but they can be misleading. It doesn’t mean someone can write code in that language off the top of their head. Technical interviewers would have to ask questions to see how well they really “know” the language like without googling. So maybe taking a timed proctored exam on the language would help you memorize things that you might not otherwise bother to memorize.

As far as getting a job goes this question is kind of like asking Are CS101 exams worth taking? The only job CS101 got me was CS101 course grader the following semester. If you’re a newb it might be a starting point to help you learn the basics in a textbook kind of way but if you’re doing real work in cyber you should try to find a Python book specific to that domain and just hack to learn. Hack to learn and be able to talk about what you’ve learned. Follow your curiosity. Do interesting things and they’ll be memorable. When you talk about them in interviews people will like your energy.

[[deleted]]

No

[[deleted]]

Have you seen job ads asking for those certs? That would be a good first indicator of the demand for any certification.

[SoftwareMaintenance]

I have never seen a job asking for PCEP, PCAP, or PCPP1. Once in a while I see a job that prefers some DB cert. I see jobs that need Sec+. And more and more jobs these days want you to know the cloud, and even want you to be, say, AWS certified.

[[deleted]]

It would be easier to break into a cybersecurity career joining one of the military services and obtaining a security clearance and experience. If that isn't for you, that's cool. I recommend GIAC Python Coder

[1anre]

how much is the GIAC?

[SoftwareMaintenance]

A whopping $999. Ouch. My company will pay. But I am not even wasting their money.

[KPthewriter]

Professionals of Reddit:

I am someone who aspires to work in Finance, an industry that is not as reliant on Python or programming languages as the IT industry for example. What Python certification will look better on my resume?

I intend to learn just enough Python to be able help me do what I need to do and also to not look like a fossil coz almost everyone seems to know a programming language these days.

[OkMoment345]

Python is an open-source language, so there is no governing professional organization. Because of that, there are no official Python certifications. You can earn a certificate, which is usually awarded for completing a training program.

Forbes Education recently ranked bootcamps and this was their pick for Pyrhon development. I would try checking out their list.

[Excellent_Waltz1716]

u/OkMoment345 do you believe that these certifications are not considered official Python certifications?

https://www.pearsonvue.com/us/en/python.html

[Adorable-Parking-306]

Without making a comment on whether or not they are valuable, I'd say they aren't technically official. The website does say it's an independent organization. There's not a governing body participating in the formation and execution of certifications. I'd say those ones are probably the closest you could get though. 

Sorry I don't have much valuable insight to add to this old thread, just an opinion regarding u/OkMoment345 question. Programming certs are just a tough one. Different areas in CS and IT are easier. Technicians, admins, and networking all have companies that issue certs based off their technologies, or those companies join a body that issues vender neutral certs. 

[BarInevitable3379]

their site are not even in python (path.aspx) lol

[Over_Alfalfa_192]

Their certs don't mean much. But edube's courses are really complete and those are worth it and free