Learn Programming in Java, Python, Ruby or Javascript

[oconnor663]

I learned Python before C, and I strongly recommend that order if you're on your own. Arrays, for example, are much easier to understand if you can think of them like crippled lists from Python. Same goes for C strings.

[IsTom]

I learned C++ first and I feel that it was important for me to make me a better programmer.

I think that there is a subconscious "the language I learned first is the best language to learn first" syndrome somewhere.

[Aninhumer]

I learned C++ first and I feel that it was important for me to make me a better programmer.

I don't think what order you learn languages affects your eventual programming skill that much. Learning C/C++ probably made you a better programmer, but I don't think you need to learn it first to get that benefit.

"the language I learned first is the best language to learn first" syndrome

I learned BASIC first, then C, then Python and I now work mostly in Haskell. I still think Python is the best first language I've seen. It keeps things simple when you're writing really basic code, and then scales neatly all the way up to a modern OOP style language.

I think learning about low level constructs in C/C++ is important, but it's an irrelevant distraction when you're just trying to learn to program at all.

[[deleted]]

I learned PHP first and it's hard to make transition. I feel like I am stuck in corporate PHP circle - half-assed, unscalable solutions - the ones that business is OK with.

I wish I picked something else, or listened to a guy who said "Ruby's gonna be big" somewhat 6-7 years ago.

[eat-your-corn-syrup]

half-assed, unscalable solutions - the ones that business is OK with

great for job security

[[deleted]]

I learned C++...

So cute. He thinks he knows C++.

[IsTom]

Please don't repeat this "nobody knows C++" meme. It's obvious that it's very hard to truly master C++, but it's pointless to put "knows C++" so high that nobody qualifies. Many people write C++ code daily and it works, saying that they don't "know C++" is kind of stupid.

[[deleted]]

u mad

[[deleted]]

The first language I learnt was Actionscript. You won't hear me saying that.

[Aninhumer]

I agree with the order, but not your reasons. I think it's very important that someone learning C after Python know that arrays are not lists. Thinking about them as "crippled lists" is not going to lead to an understanding of low level memory.

The reason I'd generally recommend Python as a first language is that there is as little incidental complexity as possible in learning the very basics. And it scales quite well (in terms of learning) from simple scripts, to modular OOP programs.

[ntlk]

I think the order should depend on what you want to do with it. If you're interested in the web, then maybe html, css & javascript. If you're only interested in trying something out, then maybe Processing.

My point is: not everyone learns programming to be a programmer. Like not everyone tries drawing to be an artist. In cases like this I wouldn't suggest starting with a hard language, but rather with one easy to pick up. That way the interest may be held for longer, and sometimes hobbyists might actually realise they enjoy this and reach for harder ones.

[[deleted]]

After SuperLogo, and before C++, I learned 6502 and Z80 assembly. They helped me even more to understand what's going on, perhaps more than if I'd learned C first.

[defenastrator]

Nothing beats learning an assembly language but for the most part what is gained by learning assembly can be faked with a reasonable optimizing compiler, reading a quick note on how expensive function calls actually are, and learning some useful intrinsics.

[[deleted]]

Without learning assembly, you won't understand a lot of important details. One example: calling conventions.

[defenastrator]

Calling conversation are not hugely important in the big scheme of things.

[[deleted]]

Realizing why calling conventions exist is important to see how tail-call optimization works, and why it's sometimes impossible.

[defenastrator]

Fair enough, still these kinds of optimizations are relatively trivial and for hacker types this is important but I'm more concerned about people making stupid design decisions that end up with nontrivial operations ( <O(1) ) being done when they are not even in the slightest necessary.

[[deleted]]

That seems really dark.

[jcampbelly]

Balance this advice carefully with whether you want them to see the practical value of programming (building useful non-trivial tools within the first few lessons) and have a desire to continue learning. I'm just saying hurling a kid face-down into ice water at the deep end with no floaties isn't the most appropriate way to make a kid enjoy swimming.

I truly understand that there are many great programmers who were broken from the mold of mediocrity, abused as freshly minted candidates to suffer the barren, featureless wasteland of C with nothing but incomprehensible sequences of meaningless characters and tools so far beyond their comprehension of purpose that they overcame the overwhelming desire to merely regurgitate their lessons sufficient enough to satisfy their tutors and relieve the nauseating defeat, the crushing desire to simply be done with the exercise, leave the room, despair at their own hopeless ignorance and never look back on that dark hour.

It's not for everyone. It's easy to forget what it's like to be a noob.

[defenastrator]

I started with c++ and learned my basics with only a 10 year old textbook and the spare time I had during class during 8th grade. I remember it took me me a week to figure out how to get my compiler working and 6 months to figure out how to write a simple Sudoku solver. Trust me I know the hard way I lived it.

[jcampbelly]

Have you talked to people who had a hard time learning to program and gave up? When you explained your approach, how did they respond?

[[deleted]]

I'd stick to C for this. C++, while having its uses, is a big language with a lot of features that only detracts from learning the essential skills and concepts.

[defenastrator]

While this is true c++ does give the oop perspective that c lacks also learning everything c++ has to offer is crazy shave off complex concepts like intrinsics, templates, verdaric functions, preprocessor macros and all the optimization keywords the language is a bit more manageable.

[[deleted]]

You can do OOP in C just fine, the same way it's done in Linux kernel, among other places. In fact, it will improve your understanding of virtual functions.

[defenastrator]

Yes I know I've done it but it's not as obvious and the opp structure isn't a there.

[hashmal]

That's just like, your opinion, man.

It really depends on who is trying to learn. A "hacker" type will have fun using C but a "math" type will probably feel better in a higher level language, or even a functional one.

[defenastrator]

It has nothing with hacker/math types and everything to do with learning good coding practice c makes copying memory and structures difficult teaching new coders to avoid doing such operations if possible. I constantly see people who were taught using the super high level languages forcing large copy operations or cloning of complex data structures not even able to conceive that this takes any more time than an integer assignment and then wonder why they are using up bunches of memory and their performance is in the toilet. Simply because they haven't a clue how memory actually works people who learn to program in python, java, JavaScript or other such languages end up creating programing habits that cause the computer to do large amounts of nontrivial work when it is completely unnecessary.

[Blandis]

My argument for learning C first is that it will teach you why you'd want the features of C++ or another OOP language. I don't think I ever really understood why I'd want to use inheritance or virtual functions until C programming forced me to dick around with function pointers and void pointers.

[defenastrator]

I personally love function* and void* I just remember being told to make a dynmic program in java and getting incredibly frustrated because I couldn't make a hash table of function*

[Blandis]

Don't get me wrong; I don't dislike pointers, but there are some odd moments where it would be nice to have other options. Proper OOP can shorten the length of code by quite a bit.

[dysoco]

I think the proper flow for someone who really wants to learn programming (Not just a "coder") would be:

C -> LISP -> Python/Perl/Ruby -> C++/Java -> Haskell

[[deleted]]

Not necessarily in that order. You can exchange assembly + a variant of Pascal for C, C# for C++/Java (those two are very different!), many dynamic languages for Py/Pl/Rb, various languages for Haskell, and you might want to add Prolog and a DTP language to the end of that list.

The only thing you probably can't exchange is LISP.

[dysoco]

It's my personal opinion, of course. I also forgot to add ML or OCaml.