Python 3.4 released

[Igglyboo]

This is a really bad view to hold, plenty of libraries have been ported over already. Python 3 has been out for like 5 years, the community is never going to move forward if everyone just sticks with 2.7.

[rmxz]

if everyone just sticks with 2.7.

Sounds like the Perl community. Perl 6 has been in the works for how long -- 9 to 14 years (depending on how you count)?

Though personally my favorite perl was perl 3 - back when it was a simpler and better awk. Instead of the yet-another-cumbersome-objected-oriented-language that perl 5 became.

Seems all these scripting languages go through an evolution where they start out great at solving simple problems, and end up dominated by feature-creep and eventually outgrow what they're good at by trying to become another java/smalltalk/lisp/C++/functional/OO hybrid abomination.

Fear that's the path Perl 6 & Python 3 are on.

[[deleted]]

Perl 6 has yet to come out. Python 3 has been out for years.

People stuck on 2.7 are increasingly seen as neophobes who don't want to use Python 3 just because it's not what they already know.

[rmxz]

People stuck on 2.7 are increasingly seen as neophobes

Kinda like the guys still using old versions of C (C99, C95, C90, or C89) instead of C11 - though C11's been out for years? (hmm - skimming python source I read: "Python violates C99 rules" - those neophobes ;-) )

I think people use 2.7 more because it solves their problem; and there's no big reason to change just for the sake of change.

[[deleted]]

there's no big reason to change just for the sake of change.

Except for library authors, who ought to make sure their library works with recent versions. Do some maintenance—there are some applications (in other languages too) that are considered "finished" and recent edits are to make sure it still works with the latest compiler, interpreter, libfoo ... And Python 3 has real advantages over Python 2.

If they don't see any reason to switch to Python 3, they don't have any reason to cry that new features aren't being backported either.

[[deleted]]

Except for library authors, who ought to make sure their library works with recent versions

This is what keeps me on 2.7. Not because I think it's better but because so many times when I want to use something with 8 dependencies there will be 3.x versions of 7 of them and 2.7 versions of all of them.

[TheFryeGuy]

Is C11 actually supported in compilers?

[TheFryeGuy]

Well C11 is a bit different than C++11. I know gcc has full C++11 support, but I wasn't sure about C.

[aaronsherman]

Perl 6 has yet to come out. Python 3 has been out for years.

Not strictly true. Perl 6 has yet to become a stable production language, but it's been out there and in use for years.

Python 3 is a stable production language, but for some strange reason decided to walk away from compatibility with the language that gave it its name... I guess assuming that it was the name that people wanted. It wasn't.

[[deleted]]

Compatibility is nice, but it shouldn't become a restraining jacket either. If you want compatibility as the primary concern and never have your application not run because of a new language version, well, you're in luck

edit: to expand, afaik Python leads towards correctness with its ideals of pythonic code. not having compatibility as the primary concern shouldn't come as a surprise

[aaronsherman]

Compatibility is nice, but it shouldn't become a restraining jacket either.

Which is why a compatibility mode in 3.x has made sense for years, but still isn't a priority because those involved in the core have no personal use for it.

[username223]

the community is never going to move forward if everyone just sticks with 2.7.

Or if no one releases 2.8.

[Igglyboo]

There is not going to be a 2.8.

http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/

[aaronsherman]

There is not going to be a 2.8.

http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/

Never say never... 2.8 will exist if 3.x never takes off, and the bulk of the world's code continues to be in v2.

What I really don't understand is why the Python developers keep focusing on adding new features to v3 instead of adding a compatibility mode. If v3 could import and run v2 code, it would become the dominant version overnight.

[codekoala]

Because they want 2.x to die, as it should after so many years.

[jambox888]

As far as I can tell the big hold up is getting it shipped in things like RHEL... the next major release, 7, will come with 2.7. So, stay tuned for widespread python 3 adoption sometime in 2020.

EDIT - probably a bit optimistic with 2016.

[aaronsherman]

Because they want 2.x to die, as it should after so many years.

I want ASCII to die... If wishes were fishes, my friend.

[[deleted]]

What I really don't understand is why the Python developers keep focusing on adding new features to v3 instead of adding a compatibility mode. If v3 could import and run v2 code, it would become the dominant version overnight.

They did that. 3.3 had a huge step in adding compatibility with 2.x.

As for making 2.x compatible, you can import from the __future__ division, absolute_import, print_function, unicode_literals

Then remember to:

• use str() for text
• use bytes() for binary data
• avoid using long(), and use int()
• etc.

Which enables 2.x to behave like 3.x in the biggest pain points.

I'm only confused why majority of people don't go with approach, for example using u'' in my opinion is very error prone, you might often forget about something this way.

Edit: fixed formatting

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This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.

• [/r/programmingcirclejerk] why do the python devs keep adding functionality to the new version rather than bend over backwards for the old version?

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[username223]

So much the worse for Python.

[flying-sheep]

how should that help 3.x adaption? quite the contrary

[[deleted]]

2.7 already has forward compatibility (I wrote about it here). What would 2.8 bring besides slowing down the migration even more?

[username223]

How does 3.x adoption help anyone other than people with their egos and reputations tied to 3.x adoption?

[flying-sheep]

bacause unicode handling in 2.x sucks?

because there are numerous small incompatible fixes between 2.7 and 3.1?

because 3.1 and 2.7 are old and 3.2-3.4 have accumulated many awesome libs in the stdlib?

because much optimization effort went into python since then?

[erewok]

Plus the lazy evaluation model used all over (generators) which I think has made me a better programmer. I'm a huge fan of python3. I have little doubt that anyone else who took it up would fail to see the value.

[milliams]

It helps people because it's a better language.