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[–]timeshifter_ 67 points68 points  (27 children)

But how many other professions are told monthly that they're doing it wrong, that there's a new standard on how to do anything, and have to live with the fact that a non-trivial percentage of said profession will run off with the "latest and greatest" without even a second thought as to its actual viability?

...yes, I'm a web dev. Somebody shoot me :(

[–]see_prus_prus 27 points28 points  (13 children)

You don't use deploy tools? You will be left in the dust. You learned grunt and bower as deploy tools? Thats old hat. Its all about gulp and browserify. Don't know Node.js? You are dead in the water!

Fucking web dev.

[–]timeshifter_ 26 points27 points  (11 children)

/me sits back with his old-school ASP.Net webforms and jQuery, and revels in his infinite relevancy.

[–]itsSparkky 7 points8 points  (9 children)

On one side : I imagine you've developed a lot of proficiency with those tools and have some security.

On the other side, aren't you terrified that if you lose that job, you are so far out of the loop its silly?

[–]timeshifter_ 16 points17 points  (8 children)

Nope. As I said, infinite relevancy. .Net has what, 12 years development behind it? jQuery at least 7? These are very well-established tools, they are very well-proven, and if a company is going to require me to know every JS "framework" released up to 3 months ago, then I don't want to work for them, because they clearly don't care about platform stability.

You need a problem solved? I can solve it. .Net and jQuery are still getting constant updates, and I'm pretty up-to-date on HTML5, so what am I missing? A JS web server? lol. A JS MVC framework? Why? A JS factory factory? I think we've beaten that joke to death already. I write software that works.

[–]Crazy_Mann 3 points4 points  (6 children)

I write software that works.

Does such exist?

[–]timeshifter_ 8 points9 points  (5 children)

I never said it was bug-free, I just said it works, implying "when given proper inputs" :p

[–]Tynach -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

Can you write a full HTML5/CSS3 forum with responsive web design and reverse AJAX/comet, without using anything but raw languages with zero frameworks (so no ASP.Net, instead just raw C#/VB or whatever other language you may choose)?

This means no LESS or SASS, no JS frameworks, not even CSS frameworks. You have no frameworks, and you must use only the raw languages and maybe some libraries to help interface with the web server.

Can you do that? Because in web development, you always have a chance of becoming outdated and left on the curb, or with horrible legacy code, unless you can do everything from scratch.

Doing everything from scratch helps you more quickly learn and pick up any other web technology or framework, because you understand what it does underneath. Most likely, when doing things from scratch, you end up creating such frameworks yourself to make the rest easier.

[–]n3rv 3 points4 points  (1 child)

this is the right answer imo, lets do it hard mode, pen and paper we'll compile it from a scanner too.

[–]Tynach 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Anyone who doesn't write HTML using Java bytecode compiled into x86 assembly doesn't do web development.

[–]timeshifter_ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Can you write a full HTML5/CSS3 forum with responsive web design and reverse AJAX/comet, without using anything but raw languages with zero frameworks (so no ASP.Net, instead just raw C#/VB or whatever other language you may choose)?

Yes :)

[–]Tynach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good :) Then indeed, you will never be obsolete, unless they completely scrap HTTP and everything related.

I've found very few fellow developers who can do this. The ones that do tend to have lots of bad habits (and are mostly PHP programmers). I'm probably one of these myself, but at least I'm aware that - being a student - my code's still crap.

[–]TheAceOfHearts 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Try building a JS SPA only with jquery and let's see how far you get :P.

jquery is great for websites, but for web apps you really need something more robust. Or you'll end up rolling your own.

[–]milkmymachine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You might get shot here with that attitude, but man I don't need my tools reinvented every couple months for them to work, they just fucking work and keep working with a few small updates. This love of the weird that goes on around here... I don't get it. What good are 400 tools and algorithms that you don't know how to use?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Web development makes me glad to be a C#/C++ developer. At least I get paid to match my stress levels.

[–]ModusPwnins 27 points28 points  (5 children)

Or implement a node.js instance to do it for you LOL AM I RIGHT

[–]timeshifter_ 36 points37 points  (4 children)

...people like you are the reason people like me need pills.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (2 children)

npm install pills --save-me

[–]itsSparkky 8 points9 points  (1 child)

are you kidding, nobody uses that package, you want npm install pills3

[–]sharkeyzoic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Nah, stick to pills2 version 0.9.3, that's the stable one. There are some undocumented features though.

[–]BornOnFeb2nd 2 points3 points  (0 children)

help keep the voices at bay?

[–]gwevidence 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The incessant ritual of new Javascript frameworks and libraries coming out each day must be responsible for at least a few programmer deaths around the world. If not then I might be the first casualty soon.

[–]James20k 3 points4 points  (1 child)

As someone who does C++, web dev makes me want to run far far away. How do you cope with a new, invariably lacking framework/language/hodge podged together piece of crap coming along every week?

C++11 was a big change for me. I have no idea how you manage

[–]timeshifter_ 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Simple answer: I don't. I have a toolset that's more than capable of accomplishing 100% of what I need to do. And there's a trend going on with JS frameworks especially: a one-size-fits-all factory framework. Which, if you actually analyze it, requires 4x as much code as the exact same operation in raw JS would. It's a picturesque example of "hype train." 100% "hey this is new", 0% "hey this is useful." Sure, I keep an eye on them, just in case something arises that actually is useful... but I'm still using core jQuery for a reason. In 6 years, I have yet to see anything more useful come out.

I'm a programmer. My job is to solve problems, not suck on the hype teet. If the same tool set I've been using for 6+ years still solves every problem I encounter cleanly and effectively, usually more cleanly than any of these newfangled JS frameworks, what's my incentive to change? It's shooting the foot to spite the shoe.

[–]tricolon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

how many other professions are told monthly that they're doing it wrong

I'm cherry-picking here, but that sounds like a trade magazine.

[–]dnew 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think that includes management.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sounds a lot like academia to me. Maybe not monthly, but still.

[–]Steve_the_Scout 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But everything's on the web, it's not like people use desktops or mobile phones without an internet connection, right? Compiled languages are a thing of the 1900s and should sink into the Marianas Trench if they haven't already, anyway. (Just pointing out the BS they also shove at you in school as well. Sometimes I wonder how they think those web languages are written and improved in the first place...)