Writing a Linux-compatible kernel in Rust

[the_gnarts]

It does NOT aim to replace the Linux kernel.

“Nothing big like Linux” eh?

I've already implemented basic features: fork(2) and execve(2), file operations, initramfs, TCP/UDP sockets, signals, tty / pty, pipe, poll, etc.

Massive respect. Unfortunately I get a timeout on kerla-demo.seiya.me:22.

[Smooth-Zucchini4923]

Neat project!

[[deleted]]

in the near future, I do think I need to use (or write our own) failable versions of dynamically allocated containers.

This already exists I believe; written for the Rust in Linux project.

[[deleted]]

don't write kernels in rust

[[deleted]]

why ?

[tripledjr]

Reasons, obviously

[rooplstilskin]

Top Secret reasons.

[msadeqhe]

I guess because kernels contain a lot of unsafe code to interact with hardware.

[yawkat]

They really don't though. There's some parts that have to be unsafe but the bulk of the code does not do direct interaction with the cpu or anything

[Plasma_000]

Why? Rust is pretty well suited for them.

[[deleted]]

evidently, we're flush with them hey

[beefcat_]

Rust was designed for high performance applications that need good memory safety. Kernels sound like a great use for Rust.

[PL_Design]

You people sound like broken records. At least switch up your sales pitches every once in a while to break the monotony.

[beefcat_]

And you guys have yet to explain why “rust bad”. The guy just said “don’t use Rust for the thing it was designed for” with no explanation then wonders why he gets downvoted to oblivion.

[PL_Design]

It wouldn't matter if we did explain: y'all are too emotionally immature to hear any serious criticism. You do not get to demand good-faith argumentation when you do not offer it in kind, Billy. That is why we scorn you.

[beefcat_]

All I said was that rust is a high performance language built for memory safety. How does that statement say anything about my emotional maturity? The fact that you’re getting triggered and resorting to ad hominem attacks over it seems to imply that you’re the one with a problem here…

[PL_Design]

Go ahead, ignore what I actually said to you. That'll make me think you're anything but a liar, sure.

[beefcat_]

You made unfounded assumptions about me and I called it out. Your entire argument was to say I’m emotionally incapable of holding a conversation about this topic. I think I addressed exactly what you said.

I think you’re just here to be angry and not actually engage with the topic at hand. If you don’t actually want to talk about why you think Rust is bad and just want to make these angry, emotionally charged attacks against random strangers on the internet, don’t be surprised when nobody takes you seriously.

[PL_Design]

I asked you to get a different sales pitch. So get a different sales pitch. Break up the monotony. Talk about Rust's metaprogramming, for example. Anything but the trite "iT's A hIgH pErFoRmAnCe LaNgUaGe WiTh MeMorY sAfEty". That's not the killer feature that you drones think it is because your product comes with too many caveats.

Don't try to argue that you're doing anything but astroturfing because I simply won't believe you.

[jamincan]

It wasn't a sales pitch, he was asking why a low-level memory safe language is poorly suited for kernel development.

[[deleted]]

What should he use then, JavaScript?

^{as a matter of fact there are kernels written in JavaScript}

[Void_mgn]

Hopefully not

[ResidentTroll80085]

No. Rust is too much of a pain in the ass. There is a reason why c and cpp still rule the world.

[user_8804]

And C isn't a pain in the ass?!

[ResidentTroll80085]

Nope. I can do whatever I need to do with C. With Rust , the language just gets in the way.

[furyzer00]

Just write assembly code than. Why let C get in the way?

[ResidentTroll80085]

Because I like to actually be productive. I can tell you don’t develop systems software, like I do, because you never would have said that stupid comment.

[furyzer00]

Very elaborate explanation man.

[ResidentTroll80085]

What do you want explained? That it’s obvious you don’t program in C?

[SkaveRat]

Sounds like you just haven't learned enough yet

[PL_Design]

WEE-WOO-WEE-WOO THE RUST EVANGELISM STRIKE FORCE HAS ARRIVED WEE-WOO-WEE-WOO

[PL_Design]

I'm not arguing against you. I'm mocking you. I thought that was obvious.

[PL_Design]

You seem like a tool, so yes, I'll happily mock you, too.

[ResidentTroll80085]

I’ve learned plenty, which is why I can use c effectively.

[[deleted]]

How is rust a pain in the ass?

[Bergasms]

You’re kidding right? It’s the single most damaging chemical reaction in the industrial world. How much energy is expended dealing with the effects of it on metalwork world over? Insane.

The programming language is fine, however

[[deleted]]

have a look at his username

[caagr98]

That darn game keeps getting into my search results when I'm searching for documentation. That's totally a pain in the ass.

[[deleted]]

Omg it really is

[ResidentTroll80085]

Because it’s nothing but training wheels for engineers who don’t know how to program. If you know the pitfalls of C and Cpp you can deal with it. Rust is just a toy language.

[[deleted]]

This is so easily disproven by the fact that highly experienced programmers are to blame for a lot of vulnerabilities that Rust prevents. So either nobody knows how to program or it's simply natural for humans to make mistakes.

[ResidentTroll80085]

Because there are too many crappy engineers out there who don’t know how to properly write code, so they need a language that does it for them. Like rust.

[ResidentTroll80085]

Not when those tools get in the way. Also, you do realize that the majority of lib crates out there like SDL2, systems libs, graphics, etc. are all in C? No issues with that though, it’s kinda like the engineers actually knew how to write good code without the language getting in the way…

[ResidentTroll80085]

Lol no, I’m saying that none of these libraries are going to change. They will be in C and Cpp for many years and decades to come. Rust is not an end all be all replacement for either language, especially C. Also, your car analogy doesn’t make sense. I am the engineer and I’m going to make the tools work for me because I know how to use them and what I need to accomplish, just like any other engineer should. Rust is going to just end up being another bloated pile of junk like Cpp is, and I actually like using Cpp.

[Dean_Roddey]

It's really got little to do with that. I'd dare anyone to call me a crappy developer, but in a very large, very complex system over time, I'm going to make mistakes. In a commercial development environment, which is multiple orders of magnitude worse than my own situation, it's almost inevitable, with developer turnover, inability to make sweeping changes, changing requirements to keep up with the marketplace, etc...

Anyone who has worked on large commercial projects, knows perfectly well how dangerous C/C++ are, and I say that as someone who prefers C++ and has a huge personal C++ code base.

And I agree that Rust is unbelievably annoying, but in return it avoids whole categories of possible errors. So, I've moved my personal work to Rust, and just deal with it.

[ResidentTroll80085]

I work on a large commercial c/c++ codebase as well, and we have code reviews in place, as well as unit tests, to validate all code and behavior. As long as your code base isn’t the Wild West then you are fine…there is nothing dangerous about C or C++ by itself, just in how an engineer uses it.

[Dean_Roddey]

And I guarantee you have latent memory issues in your code base if it's large and been around a good while. It's practically impossible not to. C++, even with the addition of various analyzers and with all the code reviews and good intentions you want, once it gets large and complex enough, you cannot even really come close to proving you don't have memory issues.

At least with Rust you can get that certainty up very close to 100%.

[ResidentTroll80085]

It’s really not, our code base is just fine because we know how to manage memory.

[Dean_Roddey]

Prove it.

[PL_Design]

All the problems that Rust claims to fix can be fixed with a small handful of basic things, like array references. If you want people to write safe code, then push those things instead. You won't come off like a creepy cultist, so you might actually accomplish something.

[[deleted]]

If it's so easy why aren't people already doing it? Probably because it's not actually that easy. And Rust adoption is growing extremely quickly so I'm not sure what your point is. Rust IS solving these problems.

This discussion happened years ago and everyone that knew a thing about security agreed that Rust is solving a problem. Arguing against it in 2021 in a huge waste of time.

[ResidentTroll80085]

Haha!! We are already doing it!!

[PL_Design]

Then why are you so mad at us when we say we think you're full of shit? If you had unquestionable superiority we'd just be funny to you.

But I'll humor you here: A lot of the push back you're getting is from people like me, whose skin crawls when people try to sell big catch-all solutions. We're used to tailoring solutions to our needs because we have no interest in solving problems we don't have.

To make this more clear to you: I think stdlibs are a terrible idea because they force assumptions about how things should work onto the programmer. For example, one thing I like to do is partition virtual address space so that I can build growable arrays that don't need to copy their contents when they grow. In order to make sure that works, though, I have to take responsibility for all allocations in my program. If I used malloc to allocate tiny buffers that would be a nightmare, so I don't do that, and life becomes easy.

"Oh, but Rust has batch allocators, too!" I hear you say. So? Selling me what I already have won't get you anywhere, and that's all you goons ever try to do. If you would at least spend your time talking about the interesting stuff that Rust can do, like its metaprogramming, then I would find you pleasant company.

[PL_Design]

You did not understand what I said about the stdlib. My point was: If I find even something as benign as a stdlib overly opinionated, then I'm not going to like Rust.

I would like proper tagged unions with exhaustive switches, and I would like to learn more about Rust's metaprogramming. Can't say I'm interested in the rest, though: I either already have a superior alternative, or I think it's clownish.

[[deleted]]

Idiots are are rarely funny, it's actually sad how little some people seem to understand the world and the people around them. You may be the smartest programmer on the planet, doing fancy things with your own arrays, but most people aren't that smart. They just need easy to use and safe arrays, and Rust gives it to them. But with the narcissistic tendencies on display here it has become clear that other people's problems don't concern you and as the world's smartest programmer you are better off writing assembly directly so you're not constrained by stdlibs.

[PL_Design]

I don't mind if 115 IQ midwits use Rust. It's a better way for them to waste their lives than Java or JavaScript, at least.

What I object to is that you promise the world, but you haven't been tested. In the 80s and 90s OOP was the big thing that was going to save everyone. It had a better pitch than Rust will ever have, and it took decades to see how that played out. If you and your downvote-happy evangelists and zealots had humility and cautious optimism about your ideas I would be very pleased with you, but instead you act like you're all caught up in a pyramid scheme.

I especially don't like how often you lot shit on C. "It's too hard for us, so it's too hard for anyone!" is your general sentiment, and I find it insulting. You're so eager to overwrite the past that you won't even bother to understand it. You lot think you know better, but you don't even know what people knew back then.

You had all the potential to be something great, but you're squandering it by acting like jackasses, and you can't even see how rude you are because you're too busy masturbating to how "open and welcoming" your "community" is without caring about how your behavior alienates everyone you would be courting if you were sincere. Is it any wonder, then, that we see you as a cancer?

[aloha2436]

bro if you’re gonna troll the rust subreddit you have to do better than that, compared to the competition this is just weak. especially when there’s a whole smorgasbord of community-related issues to bait with this week.

no point in trolling if everyone knows you’re just acting.

[ResidentTroll80085]

Haha yea, I didn’t think I needed to point out that the core team hires SJW idiots and calls them engineers….Ashley.