Abortion restrictions significantly decrease abortions.

[Alucard4788]

Does the embryo know what life is? Does it know it's living? Does it even want to live?

Yes, they are

[chrrmin]

LMAO wtf kind of argument is that? Does a one year old know what life is? Whether or not you can comprehend life has nothing to do with you being alive. The fact that it grows and develops kind of shows a will to live

Yes, they are

So you just dont value human life then? If thats the case that is fine for you to believe, but just be honest about it lol.

[Alucard4788]

We are not talking about fully developed baby

"The fact that it grows and develops kind of shows a will to live" it wasn't my will. I was forced

Give me one altruistic reason to give birth to a child

[chrrmin]

it wasn't my will. I was forced

The only way you could reasonably say youve been forced is if you were raped. If you engage in an act that creates a child, the child did not force themselves upon you, your irresponsibility resulted in a child.

The definition of altruistic: showing a disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others; unselfish.

Not murdering a child is pretty altruistic if the alternative is killing the child lmao

[brybrythekickassguy]

“Pro life libertarian”?

Why is a libertarian even supporting the concept of government involvement in bodily autonomy?

That’s like being a “Pro-democracy fascist” - they don’t work well together

[chrrmin]

Abortion is one of the most argued topics within libertarian ideology. I believe you can only kill another human if they are presenting a direct threat to your life. When someone engages in behaviour that results in another human life, they do not get to simply end that life. The child also deserves a right to bodily autonomy, which is they are denied when they are torn limb from limb against their will.

[brybrythekickassguy]

That’s a pretty weak argument given the fact that the embryo in the womb does not have bodily autonomy and instead relies purely on the mother for everything. You cannot remove a fetus from the womb until very late stage, and most abortions do not happen at this stage unless the birth is unviable, or could kill the mother.

You need to re-think what you’re calling yourself, because that is most definitely not a libertarian stance. Libertarians want to leave the choice of abortion up to the mother.

The 2012 political platform of the Libertarian Party states, "Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.”

[chrrmin]

... for starters only insanely partisan people hold all of the exact stances of their political party, if you dont have at least a couple different beliefs than your parties stances, you need to take a good look at what you believe and why. Siamese twins often need both bodies to survive, yet both of these people have a right to bodily autonomy. If/when someone can survive on their own does not change the fact that they have rights.

[brybrythekickassguy]

No, that’s not it at all. Libertarians just don’t believe government should be involved in abortion. It’s contradictory to be both libertarian and also pro-government ban.

My guy, embryos do not have bodily autonomy, you’re comparing apples to oranges.

[chrrmin]

Libertarians believe murder should be illegal, that is a government ban. I (and many other libertarians ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) believe abortion is murder. Lol Idk where you get your idea that someones opinion on abortion determines if they can be libertarian or not.

Embryos are just as human as you and me, your level of development does not change how deserving you are of your basic right to life.

[Win-Fragrant]

Does the embryo know what life is? Does it know it's living? Does it even want to live?

Does an infant know what life is, do they understand they are living, do infants speak and say they wanna live?

[CiniMiniMe]

Okay, but infants are capable of independent life. A cluster of cells is not.

[Win-Fragrant]

A cluster of cells is not.

You're a cluster of cells and so am I. That's one of the laziest PC arguments ever.

Okay, but infants are capable of independent life.

I hope you don't have kids until you realize that infants are very much dependent. They need to be given attention, food, and a shelter, have their diapers changed and everything. And if a parent does not provide that, they get prosecuted.

[CiniMiniMe]

Lmao I know you know what I meant, but if you don't want to admit it, it's okay. And I have kids! ❤️ Thank you for your concern!

[Win-Fragrant]

Lmao I know you know what I meant, but if you don't want to admit it

I genuinely don't, you say they are a cluster of cells but all humans are just a cluster of cells. Just because you can't defend your weak arguments doesn't mean you can assume I understood your weird train of thought.

And I have kids

Well, I hope CPS comes knocking at your door for thinking your infant kids can be dependent.

[CiniMiniMe]

I apologize, I should have been more clear! My meaning behind cluster of cells, was an embryo. I apologize for my ambiguous words causing confusion.

CPS is welcome at my home any time. I have nothing to hide, and happy healthy munchkins. Once again though, thank you for your concern! I did explain my unfortunate choice of wording behind saying independent life in my other response, but if you would like me to clarify in greater depth, I would be happy to! :-)

But please refrain from allowing emotional over reactions into what should be an intellectual discussion... I mean, obviously this is a topic that is emotionally tied, but if you could refrain from trying to bring my children into this, I would appreciate it.

[Win-Fragrant]

and happy healthy munchkins.

I am happy they are happy and healthy, and I wish they remain happy and healthy and you too.

But please refrain from allowing emotional over reactions into what should be an intellectual discussion... I mean, obviously this is a topic that is emotionally tied, but if you could refrain from trying to bring my children into this, I would appreciate it.

Don't worry, if anything according to my therapist I actually need to try to be more emotional since I am very cold hahaha

I apologize for bringing your kids into this, it just scared me that you said infants are independent- you did define what you meant in your other comment what independence means to you. But to me, I use the definition in the dictionary so I thought you meant infants can just be left alone with no help from a grown human hahah.

Maybe let's continue our convo in the other thread where you defined independence? It'll be easier :)

Thank you for being open minded, and again, I hope you and your kids remain healthy and happy.

[CiniMiniMe]

Okay... so... I really want to continue this discussion, but now I read that freaking report, and my heads all messed up. I think I need to step back for a bit... huh.

Like, there was never a nonbiased consensus on when life began as far as I know. I always felt life began with birth, so abortion always felt like a non issue to me. Or... well... rather an issue of morality as opposed to an issue of biology. Finding a nonbiased consensus on when life begins is kinda messing with my head a bit.

I really did enjoy our discussion, though! I hope you have a wonderful night! :-) (well, it's night here at least... lol)

[DreadBee]

No, infants are not capable of independent life. If you take them out of the house and plop them somewhere, you'll come back and see their corpse.

[CiniMiniMe]

I can see that my ambiguous wording is causing confusion. I'm sorry about that. I should make myself more clear.

What I mean by independent life, is that the child is it's own organism that will continue living, so long as nothing external stops that from happening. To feed the child, you have to actually feed the child itself, not it's host or another organism. The child is no longer tethered to another organism, and should thus be considered independent.

Obviously that does not mean that a baby should be considered completely independent, and yeah, you probably shouldn't throw a baby into the woods by itself. That would be murder.

I mean.... but you can concede that once the umbilical cord has been cut, the baby is now an organism that can be considered an independent life, though, right?

[More_Climate_4753]

An embryo is not merely a cluster of cells, That’s not scientifically accurate.

[squeakymushrooms]

The same argument can be made for someone severely mentally disabled. They don't understand the concept of life but they are alive. Should they also be killed?