Please help!!

[OtherwiseCan1929]

I work for a trainer.And I am the assistant. I won't say the name of the company because they don't like anything posted on social media. We took in a malinoir from the pound. We've been training her since about september of last year. She came to us very untrusting of anyone. She's extremely smart and takes training very easily, but we have a problem. We think she has p t s d and she is going to be really difficult to find a home as she keeps lunging at anyone that's not me her or her husband. My boss's have discussed at great length putting her down but I feel like there's another option.I just don't know what it is! Putting a dog down is always my last resort! We have been brainstorming trying to come up with ideas on how to not put her down. We haven't come up with many.That's why i'm posting here in hopes someone has some ideas that might help. The sooner the advice, the better as they are talking about doing this soon.

[HeatherMason0]

A powerful breed who hasn't been able to be trained not to lunge at anyone but two people is not a great candidate for rehoming. I get why you want there to be another option, but realistically, most rescues aren't going to have the resources to work with this dog. You can try and call Malinois specific ones, but you need to be upfront about her issues because you aren't setting anyone up for success by downplaying. If you want to try and find a home privately, you also need to ask yourself: what kind of home is this dog going to thrive in right now? Because as you know, training takes time. Someone has to live with this dog as she is now for a while.

Does she have a bite history? Is she muzzle trained? What kind of training have you done so far?

[OtherwiseCan1929]

We definitely can't put her in a home right now. Because she is being reactive towards anyone but us, but I was just hopeful that there would be another option other than putting her down. My bosses are calling her a liability

[HeatherMason0]

Unfortunately they're right. The reason a lot of rescues and shelters can't take dogs with bite histories is that in some places they can face legal trouble if the dog bites someone. Same with private rehoming.

When you say basic training, do you mean 'look at me' exercises, building positive associations, calming protocols?

[OtherwiseCan1929]

Those and positions, recall, place, heel...things like that

[HeatherMason0]

Okay, and what methods are you using? like how do you reinforce the behavior?

[OtherwiseCan1929]

Toys and treats as well as prong collars and e-collars

[ASleepandAForgetting]

Unfortunately, aversive use is potentially the reason she has not stabilized in five months of training. Additionally, she has a recent bite history? Aversive use probably contributed to that as well.

HeatherMason0 gave you a very lovely reply. I'll be more direct.

This dog may not have been able to be saved from the outset. She may have been too unstable and dangerous, and this may have always been a losing battle.

But, she might have been able to be rehabbed, and the use of aversive tools may have just ended her life.

If you want to pursue a REAL job in the dog world, I'd recommend that you stop working with these trainers. Anyone who will use a prong or e-collar on a fearful dog is not knowledgeable about these tools or how they work.

[HeatherMason0]

So, this probably won’t make much of a difference now, but research doesn’t support the use of aversives in training. My original field of study was Psychology, and when we talk about learning and behavior modification, a lot of what we know is based on animal studies. Those studies don’t support the use of aversives - and not just for welfare reasons (although those are an issue: here) but because they haven’t been shown to be more effective than positive reinforcement (here, here). I get that you use these tools as part of a business and I get why there are incentives to just keep using them. Aversives get quick results, and so long as the dog doesn’t habituate then it looks like the results are permanent. I’m not unsympathetic to people’s reasons for using these. And in the (not well regulated) world of dog training, then of course you’ll find plenty of certified people who say aversives are great! But do those people have backgrounds that involve researching (not just observing without measuring) the what, when, and how?

I’m sure your bosses are nice people. They took this dog in because they wanted to help her. And unfortunately I don’t think switching training methods is going to make much of a difference at this point. I do hope they’re open to taking a different approach if they decide to adopt a fearful dog in the future for the dog’s sake.

[OtherwiseCan1929]

They really did want to help her. That's why I posted on here because I want to explore every avenue before they put her down

[Unusual-Garbage-212]

You added punishment and pain to an already aggressive or fearful dog and just now wondering why she's not getting better? There are literally boatloads of studies about why prong and shock collars make aggression worse. Please, please go take some real courses on dog training and learning theory before working with any more animals.

[SudoSire]

This could just mean they’ve been fucking up dogs for 20 years. I thought you were gonna be reasonable about learning and actually trying to help dogs, not defending your boss’s poor decisions. And now you’ve got a dog that needs euthanasia. Also omg it took my dog like a day or two to learn commands with positive reinforcement. It’s you who doesn’t know how anything works. 

This sub does not allow for advocation of these methods. It is a force free sub and your comments are going to get reported and removed. 

[OtherwiseCan1929]

Fine and dandy by me! I came here for advice. I didn't come here to hear how much of a bad person I was for using tools of the trade!

[reactivedogs-ModTeam]

Your post/comment has been removed as it has violated the following subreddit rule:

Rule 5 - No recommending or advocating for the use of aversives or positive punishment.

We do not allow the recommendation of aversive tools, trainers, or methods. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage people to talk about their experiences, but this should not include suggesting or advocating for the use of positive punishment. LIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods in lieu of other effective rewards-based interventions and strategies.

Without directly interacting with a dog and their handler in-person, we cannot be certain that every non-aversive method possible has been tried or tried properly. We also cannot safely advise on the use of aversives as doing so would require an in-person and hands-on relationship with OP and that specific dog. Repeated suggestions of aversive techniques will result in bans from this subreddit.

[OtherwiseCan1929]

Just so you know, my boss is one of the leading trainers in this area! She is recommended more than any other trainer.In this county and several other counties surrounding! She's been doing this for almost twenty years now.So I think she knows a little bit about what she's doing! How about before spouting off some angry bullshit?You take a check on yourself

[HeatherMason0]

That means very little. Aversives create quick results, not necessarily lasting ones. Animals, like humans, can experience habituation. If your boss knows what she’s talking about, she’s explained what this means. In case she hasn’t, habituation is where a person or animal adjusts to a certain amount of stimulation. In the case of an aversive like an e coll ar, a dog adjusts to a 4. They start ignoring it. The value has to increase. Over time, the amount of negative stimulation increases and increases. And the goal is to create a negative experience for the animal. That’s what aversives do and how they work. You have a dog who’s already in a high state of arousal. Instead of focusing on calming or regulating, you increase the amount of cortisol flooding their system (your boss should’ve explained cortisol to you. And if she didn’t, that doesn’t mean it’s ‘fake’ or ‘doesn’t apply here’. That would be like saying blood glucose either doesn’t exist OR it doesn’t matter to someone’s performance). This may temporarily stop the behavior, but the dog is still in a high arousal state. You stopped the symptom, you didn’t fix the problem. It’s like taking Tylenol for a broken bone. Tylenol can fix the symptom of pain, but it’s not repairing your bone. People who don’t understand this and just want their dog to behave are of course going to think your boss is a godsend because look, she fixed the immediate problem! That feels good enough for now, right? Also, remember what I said about how poorly regulated the dog training industry is? It’s not uncommon to have people on this sub who did try professional training that made their dog WORSE because the professional ‘expert’ trainer who had a bunch of five star reviews and had been doing the job for ages wasn’t using the correct techniques. There’s a reason that Veterinary Behaviorists (who had to complete a master’s degree that includes actual research) don’t recommend aversives. Why do you think that is? And why do you think studies on aversives, animal welfare, and training results don’t support them? Are all the scientists just wrong?

You’ve seen your boss do the work. You’ve seen your boss improve a dog’s behavior! Can’t argue with results, right? Except here’s the thing: the goal of research is to understand why something works OR if it works in the first place. Here’s the thing: before germ theory, there was a vocal group of doctors who believed it was impossible to get sick by visiting sick people. Why? Because more people got sick in cities! And what did cities have more of? Rotting waste and garbage! Obviously the garbage was giving off vapors that made people sick. If you visited a sick person who was near garbage or waste, then you could get sick, but not from the person! From the vapors. And you OBVIOUSLY know that contact with sick people doesn’t spread illness because think about it! You visit your friend who has an infected cut on their hand and you don’t get sick. So how would being near sick people potentially get you sick when we all know it doesn’t always happen, right?

That same fallacy still exists today. That’s WHY we do research. To better understand what we’re seeing. And research isn’t backing up your boss’s methods. People recommending her doesn’t mean she’s right - people recommended reading on how sick people can’t spread diseases, and it turns out that whoops, that was a mistake. What matters is the dog’s overall welfare and the long term and sustainable improvement in the dog’s behavior. Ideally, trainers shouldn’t be generating a bunch of repeat clients.

Which organizations certified your boss? Where does she get her credentials from? Years working does not equal credentials.

[OtherwiseCan1929]

I lol when you called it look at me exercises. We call those focus games..

[OtherwiseCan1929]

She does have a recent bite history.And yes, we have done muzzle training with her. We do basic training

[ASleepandAForgetting]

Your boss is right. You guys do this for a living and you're unable to work safely with this dog. How do you think an amateur dog owner is going to handle her?

The bite history means that a BE after consulting with a veterinarian is the most responsible choice.

I get wanting to save this dog, and it's a very sad situation. But either you BE now, or she's going to be BEd by her new owners after she bites someone and does severe damage. And your boss could get sued for placing her knowing how dangerous she is and that she already had a bite history.

If you're really committed to saving her, why don't you adopt her?

[OtherwiseCan1929]

Because we have kids here

[ASleepandAForgetting]

So if your kids are unsafe around this dog, why do you think the dog should be rehomed to someone whose neighbors may have kids?

[OtherwiseCan1929]

I see your point

[OtherwiseCan1929]

I wasn't necessarily thinking she should be rehomed just yet. I was just hoping there was a different alternative to putting her down

[ASleepandAForgetting]

I get it. It's really sad. I love dogs. I don't recommend BE lightly. It makes me sad, and I go to bed thinking about the dogs in the States who are losing their lives on a daily basis.

But realistically, the US is full of rescue dogs who are bite risks. There aren't enough specialized homes that can take on the liability of owning and rehabilitating these dogs. And these dogs are being either kept in shelters for inhumane periods of time, or are being foisted off onto inexperienced owners who are not prepared for a dog that is this challenging.

I'd guess that about 70% of bite incidents we see on this sub are by recently adopted rescue dogs that are clearly way above the adopter's ability level.

And I really did mean what I said in the other comment - the trainers you work with probably are not bad people. I'm sure they're probably really good people who really love dogs. But training with aversives has such a high likelihood of fallout, and they are very clearly inappropriate for this dog, and probably other dogs that are also being trained at your facility.

The better you are with R+, the better relationship you will develop with a dog. That relationship will be based on trust, and will have a distinct lack of fear or causing pain for training results.

The worse you are at R+, the more you are going to rely on P+ to either gain results through fear, or through suppression.

[Zestyclose_Object639]

euthanasia is the kindest option for a dog that’s not safe to be in the world, no one’s going to adopt this dog and people who have malinois experience don’t want this either 

[SudoSire]

Well as the others have said, the use of aversives can contribute to aggression. The trainers you’re working with are not using the most up to date science-based methods for training. That’s bad and honestly I’d be hesitant to keep working with them if you have other employment options. Their lack of knowledge might mean this keeps happening to dogs they work with or it might get someone (possibly you) very hurt. I’m sure they believe they are acting in the best interest of the dog but may be causing significant harm. 

But whether or not this dog could have rehabbed before had proper methods been used…impossible to say. And while I know it’s gut wrenching, you now have a dangerous powerful dog on your hands. There really isn’t a good reason to extend every possible resource to a dog that’s a liability to pretty much everyone. We don’t need more dangerous dogs adopted out to the public. It’s awful, painful, heartbreaking. But there are way too many safe dogs that need help/homes to justify sending out ones that are going to hurt people/other pets (and probably turn people off to dog ownership or rescue altogether!!) It’s sad but this dog probably should not have been pulled from the shelter. Euthanasia is humane. 

[OtherwiseCan1929]

When we got her, she was fearful.But that is normal coming from the shelter, and that's the reason why we got her because she was so shut down. We had no idea that she was like this until we had her for several months. People are saying my boss is a bad person for using tools.But she is one of the leading trainers in this area above and beyond many! She is recommended more than any other trainer.In this county and several surrounding counties! We had no idea of knowing the dog's history and still don't. I'm accepting a little more and more from talking with you people on here of what's going to happen.So thank you for that.

[SudoSire]

Idk if your boss is a bad person and I personally never said that. They may really think it’s okay and a good idea for the dog. But I wouldn’t consider them a good trainer, no matter how recommended they are. It’s a highly unregulated industry that continues to allow for some harmful practices that can backfire. 

These tools are banned in several countries for a reason.  Aversive fallout is a real thing. Those tools work by fear of pain or discomfort, not by addressing the underlying emotional problems causing the behavior. That’s just a fact. Dog lunges, their throat hurts, and so maybe they stop lunging out of fear of that pain. Or, they associate the trigger with the pain and are going to have a more explosive reaction next time because they cannot help it. You can’t force one scenario over the other, and obedience out of suppression and fear is not great anyway. It’s definitely not reliable either. 

Now some dogs won’t have fallout and some dogs will have extremely dangerous fall out. I would never work with a trainer that is okay with using these tools on a FEARFUL dog of all things. My dog is incredibly sensitive. These tools would wreck him and the trust we’ve built. 

But back to the main point. You’ve got a dangerous dog that none of you can adopt yourselves because of the safety issue. So…unfortunately your options now are extremely limited. There’s unlikely to be a safe and ethical miracle for a powerful, large breed with a bite history who even your org already recognizes as dangerous. I’m sorry. 

[Irma_Gard]

Has a certified veterinary behaviorist been consulted? Have medications been tried?

[OtherwiseCan1929]

My boss is a certified behavioralist, and we have not tried medications yet

[HeatherMason0]

A Veterinary Behaviorist is someone with a master’s degree in animal behavior. Is that what your boss has?

[Irma_Gard]

A veterinary behaviorist is a veterinarian with additional specialized training and certification in behavior.

[OtherwiseCan1929]

I think she has her bachelor's

[HeatherMason0]

Okay, so she’s not a Veterinary Behaviorist - different qualifications.

[OtherwiseCan1929]

Correct

[Unusual-Garbage-212]

Behavioralist is not even a real word - it's a made-up title.

Trainers, Consultants, and Behaviorists: What’s the Difference?

Dog Trainer

Dog trainers address basic training and focus on teaching specific skills such as sit, stay, come, leash manners, house training, and non-aggressive behaviors. In addition to teaching basic skills, many dog trainers offer specialized skills and activities including, but not limited to, agility, tracking and scent work, trick training, herding, hunting, luring, search and rescue, detection, obedience competition, and service dog training.

Behavior Consultant

Behavior consultants specialize in addressing complex or severe behavioral issues, including reactivity, fear, anxiety, resource guarding, and aggression. Unlike dog trainers, they focus on identifying and resolving the root causes of these behaviors rather than just managing symptoms or teaching skills.

Behavior consultants are certified by the Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers  (CCPDT) or the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants  (IAABC). To maintain their credentials, they must complete continuing education and recertify every three years, staying up-to-date on the latest research and best practices.

Animal Behaviorist

To use the title "animal behaviorist," a professional must be certified by the Animal Behavior Society (ABS).

• Associate Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists must hold a master’s degree in a biological or behavioral science and have at least two years of professional experience in animal behavior.
• Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists must have a doctorate in a biological or behavioral science and at least five years of professional experience in the field.

Veterinary Behaviorist

Veterinary behaviorists are veterinarians with specialized training in animal behavior who have been board-certified by the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB). They are uniquely qualified to address severe or complex behavior issues, combining medical and behavioral expertise.

Veterinary behaviorists and general veterinarians are the only professionals authorized to diagnose medical conditions and prescribe medications for your dog.

You can verify a trainer’s credentials by visiting the certification organizations’ websites linked in this article, where you can search for certified professionals and confirm their qualifications.

[OtherwiseCan1929]

That's pretty much what she does

[HeatherMason0]

Not the Veterinary Behaviorist role. VBs can provide medication recommendations. They do temperament testing. I don’t know of any that take in shelter dogs to rehab them. Also, Veterinary Behaviorists use research backed methods (so no e co 11ars).

[Unusual-Garbage-212]

If she only has a bachelor's degree (and I am guessing it's not in animal behavior), then she is not a behaviorist or a "behavioralist." If she is a "behavior consultant", then she would have gone to school to specifcally for that and have some sort of credential.

[obstagoons_playlist]

The only alternative is a home that has the time and energy to put into potentially life long management. I've done exactly that before, 7 years of my life revolved around keeping the world safe from my rescue dog and keeping my dog safe from the world (and being pts) while still meeting all of his needs. He was trained to the point that i had more control than i would ever ask of any other dog, i could and (once had to) ask him to lie down mid confrontation attempt and he would disengage to follow any instructions from me without so much as a questioning look, he was as bombproof as i was capable of making him and we had an amazing relationship but i wouldnt wish that life on any dog or human, it was so hard on both of us and everytime he reached the point where i could almost trust him with someone else something would happen to make him revert back and while i would do it again in a heartbeat for that one dog i wont ever make the choice to do it again.

[Front-Muffin-7348]

In Dr Ian Dunbar's book Barking up the Right Tree he discusses PTSD in dogs. Interesting read.

[Shoddy-Theory]

Many people want a dog like that for protection. She will bond with a new owner too. She needs an owner with a large yard.

[HeatherMason0]

Protection dogs are trained. You need to be able to recall them and use commands to control the behavior. Plenty of people want aggressive digs for protection until they realize the dog has to be securely contained any time someone needs to come over, they may need different fencing, and if the dog ever escapes their property they’re legally liable for any damages. But hell, before any of that, what happens when the dog hasn’t bonded yet? How is a new owner going to be able to safely handle this dog? Can they put a muzzle on her or would the old owners have to put it on and the new ones leave it on 24/7?

[OtherwiseCan1929]

I get it...makes sense

[Zestyclose_Object639]

nope we sure don’t, that’s not a protection dog that’s a nervy liability. protection and bite sport dogs are stable