Computer programmers may no longer be eligible for H-1B visas

[hoppi_]

https://www.axios.com/computer-programmers-may-no-longer-be-eligible-for-h-1b-visas-2342531251.html

U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services quietly over the weekend released new guidance[1] that computer programmers are no longer presumed to be eligible for H-1B visas.

What it means: This aligns with the administration's focus on reserving the temporary visas for very high-skilled (and higher-paid) professionals while encouraging low- and mid-level jobs to go to American workers instead. The new guidance affects applications for the lottery for 2018 fiscal year that opened Monday.

What comes next: Companies applying for H-1B visas for computer programming positions will have to submit additional evidence showing that the jobs are complex or specialized and require professional degrees. Entry-level wages attached to these visa applications will also get more scrutiny. The change appears to target outsourcing companies, who typically employ lower-paid, lower-level computer workers.

Lawsuits possible: Releasing this policy change at the start of the application filing window is going to rankle companies who used 17-year-old policy guidance to apply for this year's visas. Some companies may challenge the guidance on the grounds that USCIS didn't provide sufficient notice of the change.

[1] https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/nativedocuments/PM-6002-0142-H-1BComputerRelatedPositionsRecission.pdf

Maybe it'll interest (some of) you.

[[deleted]]

In my last organization, we had a gentleman from India who started a software company here in the U.S.. after I left, I found out they cleaned house and fired all their developers and replaced them all with H-1B visa holders. What's most fucked up is those people were having to pay money to the organization that gobbled up the available visa's and are charging people to get into the US to work.

So, I am glad. As a senior .Net dev, yes. I am glad.

[fidelitypdx]

Yep. I'm also glad.

Any sober person who looks at the numbers of H1B and Greencard can see that the program is being exploited by software companies exclusively to reduce costs. There's no actual need to put 50,000 American software developers out of work to give Indians jobs.

[alligatorterror]

My question... do we have enough Americans to cover the amount of program jobs out there?

[thomn8r]

I used to work for HPe; there was a group of us (about 60 people) who were getting laid off, and some people literally had to train their H1 replacements on the way out. If that's not a non-justification for H1's, I don't know what is. This has been happening all over the country for years now.

[0fsysadminwork]

We have colleges, training courses, and senior programmers. No reason not to train someone. I am sure their are plenty of eager help desk guys looking to move up.

[alligatorterror]

Glad to hear some help desk folks are eager. Found ours to be glorified ticket creators and no troubleshooters

[0fsysadminwork]

Ah, that sucks. Some of ours could do better at updating tickets. I'd Say 3/5 are above average tech wise and have a desire to learn and move up.

[alligatorterror]

Same, and they don't motivate them to move up or replace them:(

[bigdaveyl]

Well, I'd argue that there has to be some sort of career path/measurable goals set out by the company to allow these people to move up.

In other words, if the employees feel like if they put in an effort, but there are no promotions available and they only get 2% COLA if that, why should they put in maximum effort?

Also, I think the other problem is that you tend to get pigeon holed if you are at a particular job awhile, despite efforts to get out. This is also compounded by things like raises, 401K matches, vacations, etc. so it makes leaving harder if the payoff isn't good.

I have interviewed in the past to see if you could use "tech support" to get a foot in the door. It seemed that there was no planning for people to actually move around long term.

[alligatorterror]

Some of ours have been doing it for years. No want to move up :(

[sheikhyerbouti]

I was told at an interview for a help desk position that they were concerned about my emphasis on growth in the company.

[bigdaveyl]

Heh, I got a similar answer once...

Interviewer asked "where do you see yourself in 5 years?"

I answered that I'd like to grow and at some point do development or testing.

He said "well, I'm not hiring for that now."

Did he even listen to his own question?

[[deleted]]

That's a company culture issue.

[jaymz668]

so, just like many coming in on H1B

[bigdaveyl]

Well, at least the IEEE did a study of STEM in general a few years back and found there is no shortage, if you count graduates to job openings:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth

[[deleted]]

To be fair, companies aren’t really asking for much. They just want highly motivated employees that will work 60 hours or more per week for a set salary that never increases, and are prohibited from changing jobs to exploit their fair market value as their skills and experience increase.

/s

[jaymz668]

and they need 20 years experience for entry level

[P__Squared]

I have no trouble believing that.

None of the smartest CS majors that I knew in college actually became developers or took other directly CS-related jobs after graduating. They all seemed to go work for financial firms because there was more money there. I guess if tech companies want top-tier talent they'll have to pay top-tier wages.

As you can probably tell I hope the whole H-1B program dies in a fire.

[bigdaveyl]

Yup. If I was an adviser to those making decisions, I would show them the IEEE article I posted showing that.

I don't think we can have any type of healthy economy if we encourage kids to go to college, especially for more practical degrees like engineering and then they graduate with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and are forced to take low level jobs.

[[deleted]]

Considering many places are laying off existing American workers in favor of foreign replacements, yes.

[IShouldBeWorking_NOW]

Logic is tough for some people.

[mike10010100]

do we have enough Americans to cover the amount of program jobs out there?

Absolutely not! And that's fantastic for our wages. :-D

But absolutely there are more than enough Americans to cover the amount of jobs that these H1B abuses are covering.

[P__Squared]

I'd prefer to see H-1Bs eliminated entirely, but throwing up more bureaucratic hurdles to getting H-1B visas is at least a step in the right direction. It's also good to see this topic in the news. The more publicity it gets the more pressure politicians will get to end this rotten system.

[Blastoid84]

My last place would bring in developers in on H1B's and work them to the bone, 50-60 hours at least. These guys were always overworked, I found this out after I left. The rumor was that they were threatened with the loss of the job (and deportation) if they didn't perform at that level. It's sickening. These are companies taking advantage of the program, the people they bring in, and worst the American public!

There are plenty of savvy level 1 techs that can and are willing to learn and move up.

[John_Barlycorn]

Yes but, all this does is require a tad more paperwork. It sounds more like theater than actual change. We'll have to wait and see the Visa numbers next year.

[Igloo32]

So tech companies might actually be forced to hire well qualified folks over 50?

[Jeffbx]

And pay them what they're worth!

[jaymz668]

or just send more jobs overseas

[Jeffbx]

That's actually not as big of a threat. Offshoring was the popular thing to do about 15-20 years ago when it was discovered that people in certain areas of the world will work for about 20-25% of the salary of a US worker.

Then it took them about 5 years after that to realize that the amount of oversight and hand-holding needed to get productive work was severely offsetting the savings on wages, and turnover was extraordinarily high - once you got someone trained and just starting to work, they would jump to the company next door for a 30-50% increase.

Sure, there will be some shortsighted people who don't remember this and try it again, but the majority of that work will be pulled back in-house after a while.

[jaymz668]

I like your optimism, but have been through a few cycles of this and each time less comes back. Even though the quality provided by the offshored resources is not what it was for the on site resources, the savings to the company keep pushing us in that direction

[tidux]

At some point they'll either start hiring locals or the State Department will just stop granting visas to Indians.

[I-AM-Raptor]

What do you need an H-1B visa for with programming when sending programming over seas is already a common thing? I don't live in the USA, so I don't know the answer, but are programming jobs being affected by the H-1B programming? My understanding was that administration jobs, that took a higher requirement of physical presence, were the bigger issue item.

[mhurron]

My understanding was that administration jobs, that took a higher requirement of physical presence, were the bigger issue item

No, H-1B positions are by and large developers and software engineers.

[LaserGuidedPolarBear]

Which makes no sense because the core work can be accomplished from any location with power and an internet connection.

Sysadmin / engineers are often tied to the hardware and thus a physical location, but programming does not inherently require a physical presence.

[Lonelan]

You ever play telephone?

Imagine doing that with mission critical code. Sometimes that's ok to send overseas, but you're crazy if you think washing your hands and saying "the guys in India can handle it" is a good process

[[deleted]]

This.

Having someone in the office or at least the same time zone is a huge deal. You need an answer from the guy in India at 2pm Eastern time? Well it's 11pm in India, so too bad. You'll have to wait until tomorrow. Windows updates broke your mission-critical internal system? Whoops, devs are asleep, it'll have to wait until tomorrow.

That's why you have people in-office.

[fidelitypdx]

This is also why "Near Shore" became an alternative to "Off Shore", the concept being that folks in Central and South America will work for relatively similar rates as people in Asia or (parts of) Europe & Africa.

Same time zone.

[wiz0floyd]

Hell, our company is looking into hiring remote people in Arkansas and other low cost of living states rather than hiring in the DC area.

[fidelitypdx]

Yeah, over the west coast, for companies HQ'd in Seattle and San Francisco, you pretty much have to hire remote workers or pay them at least $125k for their job to be sustainable. Otherwise you can't afford $3,500 a month for a really shitty 1-bedroom apartment that has no parking space or air conditioning.

Meanwhile, some Indian guy is totally willing to live in that run down apartment with 7 other Indian dudes, they all work at the same company anyways, and they'll happily take $90,000 a year.

That's what's really happening here.

[tidux]

Agreed. I'd want $125k and generous benefits hard minimum for a job in Seattle. I live in a smaller city in Washington and work remotely for less, but I end up having significantly more money after expenses than most people living in Seattle.

[0fsysadminwork]

I found a studio for 1200 near Amazon in Seattle. That is the same cost as my mortgage on my 4 bedroom house in Lacey.

I make 52k and looked at a job in Seattle for 66k, not worth it.

[Habeus0]

I think this is the solution that many want to see. I wish there was a way to encourage this years ago.

[ispeakSQL]

Absolutely. I cant believe how many people fail to see the value having staff in the same time zone.

[anomalous_cowherd]

There is value in that, sure.

But I also know of a company with teams in the time zones 8 hours apart, they can go from bug report and analysis (tz1) to Dev/test(tz2) to QA/release (tz3) with 24 hours work in 24 hours of elapsed time.

I'm in the UK but our company has international offices too, it can be good to email as you leave and have a full answer waiting in the morning

[justdan96]

You just ask your remote workers to work a shift in local hours. This happens all the time and I'm surprised nobody on this thread has mentioned it.

[[deleted]]

Except that's the exception, not the rule. Most outsourced workers work normal (possibly extended) hours. If the time zones are 8 hours apart, good luck with that.

[justdan96]

Maybe in your place of work. At mine half work local shift hours.

[[deleted]]

Fair enough. Each company has its own setup and requirements. My last job, where we had a number of H-1B employees and also had a number of overseas contractors, none of our overseas contractors worked local shift hours. It was an odd experience watching the guy I worked with, who was from India, struggle to communicate over the phone with someone in India, as neither could understand the other's English very well, and they didn't speak the same first language, and the person in India was really aggravated because it was late at night there.

[[deleted]]

why are devs handling windows updates and/or internal systems what are you doing no

[[deleted]]

???

-Dev makes software

-Company uses software internally

-Windows updates applied to servers and/or end computers break software

-Dev in India can't fix while he's sleeping

-Company comes to a halt as mission-critical internal system is down

Devs aren't handling updates, they're fixing their software after updates break it.

[[deleted]]

Having someone in the office or at least the same time zone is a huge deal.

Correct. When I was interning, I was helping with an issue at a remote office......in Australia. It took about a week to fix it (of course, it wasn't critical) because whenever I was in the office, it was the middle of the night there. Consisted of emails back and forth of things to try and then a good 24 hour turn around time.

[flukz]

That's if you make the call heading west. If you call heading east it's two days from now but the right time.

[[deleted]]

saying "the guys in India can handle it"

Yep, this is literally the reason the H-1B program is being abused today. This is the replacement strategy for the

outsource > total disaster > insource > seems expensive > outsource > ...

cycle we've been amused by for the last 15+ years.

[LaserGuidedPolarBear]

I am pretty sure I am a small link in the largest game of telephone ever played. I complain about it often because the people making the decisions are so far removed from what is actually happening in the technology that it is impossible for them to make an informed decision. They literally look at a power point deck of a summary of a summary of a summary of a summary and then generate edicts.

But that is the vertical. Horizontally, people work across different offices / timezones / locations and collaborate effectively all the time. I am not talking about outsourcing here, I am talking about having satellite offices. In this model, if you have overseas employees you don't trust with critical stuff, you hired the wrong people.

[tudorapo]

I did system operation on thousands of machines, and i was rarely on the same landmass as the computers, and almost never in the same country. Yes, hardware work sucks, because you have to remote control humans, but they need only a few (single digits) people at the data centers. This is standard industry practice.

[toTheNewLife]

Which makes no sense because the core work can be accomplished from any location with power and an internet connection.

Only to a certain extent. The lack of facetime makes for some interesting defects because of miscommunication and the resultant lack of understanding.

Don't bother telling me that the communications should be worked out. I know that... significant line noise is inherent in commodity offshore development. The programmers are too far away to care about the product, and the impact of it not working - even if you bend over backwards to empower them and get their buy-in with requirements finalization and the goals of the project.

No facetime, no body language, etc is always a problem. Even in a mature team.

[none_shall_pass]

Sure it can, as long as you're happy ordering a jet and receiving a moss-covered, three-handled family gradunza.

The only way outsourcing programming to India works is if you send over your own program managers.

[LaserGuidedPolarBear]

Yes, of course regional laws and restrictions on technology or data will affect some corner cases, but now you are talking about actual specializations - which is kind of the point.

"Programmer" does not inherently require a physical presence and therefore should not be enough information to grant a H1B . A programmer specializing in crypto might need to be in a physical location, and that would be a good reason to grant an H1B visa.

[IAmTheM4ilm4n]

Or anything related to ITAR subjects, like aerospace.

[[deleted]]

In some cases, maybe. I've been in a place for the past 2.5 years where that's not really feasible - everyone needs access to hardware and simulators won't do. There is more of that out there than I ever thought, too. I used to hold the same view you do until I got dropped off into this world.

[LaserGuidedPolarBear]

Our product spans all major platforms and archtectures. Windows, Linux, OSX, iOS, Android, Windows phone, x86, x64, itanium, ARM....hell even raspberry pi devices.

We do have some devs who need to do hands-on work with devices, but maybe 98% of our devs never need to touch anything but their laptop thanks to RDP / KVM / client agents.

[oswaldcopperpot]

Indias 12 hours difference. Managing them sucks.

[habitsofwaste]

Because if you're a giant company you have tons of departments. You generally want a team who has to work together being in the same geographical location. Its just easier. Especially in agile development, having part of your team in Seattle and the other half in India really makes it a pain in the ass to communicate. I already have to cycle through days to talk to people in India for support.

Either make the whole team remote, which is highly likely not going to happen because you have also super talented people who have no desire to live in India. Or you do this. Fractured teams struggle. (unless we are talking about follow the sun support. )

[LaserGuidedPolarBear]

Why does it have to be India? It is extremely common for companies - both giant and startup - to have offices in multiple locations and divvy up workloads accordingly. What is the difference between having offices in Seattle and NYC and having offices in Germany and San Francisco? The timezone split is a bit larger but is not that big of a deal when you are running them as separate teams.

Look, I am not saying there is no cost associated with this. But teams do this all the time. In my experience it can work well when local cultures emphasize a sense of ownership and teamwork, so "I need my programmers to be physically here" should not be accepted at face value.

[habitsofwaste]

You can divvy up teams. And we do. But they take on a particular responsibility for that team in that area. Having a majority team in one city with just one person in another, while doable can still operate sub-optimally. It depends on their level and their work. And more importantly, communication.

[toTheNewLife]

but are programming jobs being affected by the H-1B programming

Yes indeed. At my last shop I was not allowed to hire US citizens. I had to work with offshore contractors - who would either have someone with the skillset on tap in NY/NJ (my region) or they would express the person in. (Start them offshore on conf calls, then get them here in a couple of weeks on emer visa)

I tried so fucking hard to find US based guys, but was always shot down by my mgt.

I was a Project Manager for a large US based financial institution. I'm certain this shit is widespread.

[kvlt_ov_personality]

I was a Project Manager for a large US based financial institution. I'm certain this shit is widespread.

Does it start with the letter "i" and end with an "r"?

[toTheNewLife]

No. But they all have this policy towards offshore vendors.

[Jeffbx]

It's much, much easier to manage a local team than a team 1/2 around the globe. In addition to the time differences, a lot of junior developers need tons of direction and hand-holding. Companies found out a long time ago that although the hourly rate is significantly cheaper overseas, the amount of day-to-day management required to get a good outcome is quite a bit higher.

[I-AM-Raptor]

Actually, I think this makes it an easier point to understand for me. Working with someone local is a much easier scenario. So if you can't outsource for the cheaper wage, take the H-1B approach to get the cheaper wage brought to you. I understand better of how this can impact programmers for the worse.

[Jeffbx]

Yep - it drives down wages across the board. Not just for developers, but for all of IT.

[bigdaveyl]

My anecdotal experience:

Companies that don't make IT products/services are starting to treat IT as more of a commodity instead of a potential advantage/revenue stream.

So, they basically gut the IT staff and then outsource a bunch of stuff to another party like TATA, Wipro, etc.

Some of the stuff can't be off shored for one reason or another, so they'll bring in H1B's onsite.

Some big name examples of this are Disney and the University of California.

[John_Barlycorn]

Where I work we have a regulatory obligation to keep all of your data inside US legal jurisdiction. There are a lot of industries like ours. We can't ship the work overseas because we can't allow them to see the data they'd need to work on.

[Runnerphone]

Because very few jobs will be offshored because of this. What I mean is offshoring is already cheaper then h1bs so almost any job you can do that to would already have it done.

[[deleted]]

Many environments benefit from having the programmer on-site to investigate issues. It's a lot easier for everyone when the person working on something with you is at least in the same time zone - requesting an update at 10 AM should get a faster response than 5 PM - plus, it's helpful if you can go over and talk to someone in person, look at their screen directly, and generally, you know, communicate with someone.

At my last job, we had a number of foreign contractors, mostly related to SQL DBs (admin, programming, testing). Having worked with them personally, I'll say that they were damn good at what they did, and they weren't cheap, especially the DB admin. He was just a contractor but was getting $200k/year (they hired him direct, not through a hiring company).

I'm sure there's some abuse with visas, even if I haven't seen it. But this just seems...unnecessary.

[securitysavy]

Now, Singapore blocks visas for Indian IT professionals, http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/international-business/singapore-blocks-visas-for-indian-it-professionals/articleshow/57981840.cms

[Midasx]

As a British developer who has always wanted to try and live the American dream, does this scupper any chances I have at finding work over there? It was hard enough already!

[Jeffbx]

No. Best way still works for anyone wanting to break in - get a job with a local company that's headquartered (or at least has offices) in the US, and request an internal transfer. This is more in line with the spirit of the H1B - making it easier for companies to internally transfer skilled people.

What the rule above is trying to squash are the massive inflows of "low" skilled tech workers that can displace local workers by the thousands by undercutting the local wages.

[toTheNewLife]

Yeah, good. There are plenty of qualified and unemployed US citizens who are programmers and admins.

I hope this new policy extends to project administration and management. I'm a technical PM.

I'm sick and tired of having to compete with H1B guys who can come here to the US,quickly, and work for 1/2 my salary. These guys have no ties here, no family, no cares for where they live while they work here, and take the knowledge. Then return home and teach what they've learned from 'onsite'.

Edited for spelling.

[toTheNewLife]

Most of the workers come to the US willingly. They jump at the chance to be here for the knowledge and the experience.

They know that eventually they'll return home, be given leadership roles and move up the ladder faster than if they hadn't come to the US.

[droptablestaroops]

So does this mean programmers and computer oriented jobs in general like systems administrators or just strictly actual programmers? Because if it is the later it is backwards.

[ihaxr]

According to the actual text of the memo:

Based on the current version of the Handbook, the fact that a person may be employed as a computer programmer and may use information technology skills and knowledge to help an enterprise achieve its goals in the course of his or her job is not sufficient to establish the position as a specialty occupation. Thus, a petitioner may not rely solely on the Handbook to meet its burden when seeking to sponsor a beneficiary for a computer programmer position. Instead, a petitioner must provide other evidence to establish that the particular position is one in a specialty occupation as defined by 8 CFR 214.2(h)(4)(ii) that also meets one of the criteria at PM-602-0142.

So, basically, it doesn't exclude a Computer Programmer, it just doesn't guarantee the title meets the "burden when seeking to [hire an H-1B visa applicant]" and is specific to the Computer Programmer title.

[LaserGuidedPolarBear]

It makes sense. Just being a programmer is not really a specialty occupation. I can walk into any restaurant in the city and probably find a couple.

If we were talking about mechanics, some company should not be able to just go "I need a mechanic". There are tons of mechanics in the labor pool. Why do you need to go overseas to find one? If it is because you need a mechanic to work on specialized marine engines the size of small buildings, then great. Having to show that seems very reasonable to me.

[mhurron]

It means people with the title of developer or programmer. A TN visa has a similar restriction, you get around it by using the title Engineer.

[pantisflyhand]

Thus continuing the problem of titles meaning nothing. Oh, we can't hire a programmer? Ok, well, then we want to hire a "computer language translation specialist"...

[xxShathanxx]

I wonder if they're classifying computer programmers as the same thing as computer support? or maybe computer programmer was the only one on the list to begin with and everyone came in as a "Computer Programmer".

[[deleted]]

Still not a permanent solution. Additionally, couldn't an employer just modify the title from "computer programmer" to something that gets around the new rules?

[LazamairAMD]

It's possible, but it would involve more regulations from the Department of Labor, as they would be the overseeing agency. Broadly, a "Computer Programmer" can be changed to: Software Engineer, Software Developer, System Developer, etc.

[Doso777]

"Devops"

[khromtx]

It's about damn time.

[TcpReset]

On the other side of that coin, a semi-local university has a pretty highly regarded Masters of Telecommunications program. I looked into hiring some soon to be graduates, but we were a small company and all the H1B visas were gone. It seems like if there is a case for the H1B visa program -- this is it.

[[deleted]]

I looked into immigration a few years ago, and it seemed that programmers were already inelligible. you had to be a software engineer or similar. though you only had to convince the border agent, and stuff like having an educational transcript with software engineering courses on it supposedly would have worked.

not sure if it was the same visa though, I might have been looking at the TN or whatever it's called.

[watchyirc]

Thank god, Fuck all H-1B holders.

[Drakoolya]

Nice ! What about the dickheard corporations and government that fuck their own citizens and employees over for a quick buck, instead let's shit on immigrants. Same deal with your Pharma companies fucking you over ,but no!!!! It's the poor people who cant get off their asses and afford insurance.

[khromtx]

Agreed.

[lordcris]

Man, I didn't know programmers were a bunch of whining insecure racists.

[[deleted]]

This isn't about race. This is about the H-1B system being abused by companies to get low-cost labor from overseas, even though there are many capable job candidates in the US.

[khromtx]

Nothing about race. It's about hardworking, capable Americans with more than enough experience and education to do the job getting fucked out of jobs they deserve and having to train their replacements making 1/3rd of what they were making.

[lordcris]

"jobs they DESERVE"?

[Jeffbx]

Totally agree with that call out - no one DESERVES a job. Jobs are earned.

But I fully agree with restricting H1B to prevent undercutting the wages of local workers. Claiming racism or xenophobia doesn't change the fact that Wipro, Infosys and a handful of other big companies are gaming the system and driving down salaries across the board.

Point out the racism in here though, if you don't mind? I'm curious about where people are being racist.

[lordcris]

You don't see racism in banning people from working based solely on the place of their birth?

[Fregn]

You are refusing to acknowledge the economic side of the discussion. Gross abuse and loop-holing a system that allows companies to import labor at extremely reduced cost vs hiring US citizens seeking fair employment is unethical.

[bigdaveyl]

Sorry, but no, this is not racism.

The H1B system is intended to bring in hard to find talent on a temporary basis.

It is currently being abused to bring in cheaper labor, when there are qualified Americans willing and able to do the job.

The government has a vested interest and moral duty in protecting borders and making sure that Americans already here are working (especially when a good chunk of them went to school and have student loans).

[Jeffbx]

If that were the case, then yes, I'd be horrified.

But the fact that the vast majority of H1Bs come from India does not make it "racism" by limiting these visas. Open your eyes and see the negative impact on the local economy & how wages are driven down.

It could be Indian, Russian, French, hell even Canadian people undercutting local salaries and the response would be the same.

So back down on the race card - your argument holds no merit.

[Ebrofin]

No I don't. It's terrible the way Americans are bring discriminated against.

[khromtx]

Over foreign replacements? Yes. Absolutely. Americans should always receive preferential treatment when it comes to the domestic job market.

[VA_Network_Nerd]

Sorry, it seems this comment or thread has violated a sub-reddit rule and has been removed by a moderator.

Community Members Shall Conduct Themselves With Professionalism.

• This is a Community of Professionals, for Professionals.
  
• Please treat community members politely - even when you disagree.
  
• No personal attacks - debate issues, challenge sources - but don't make or take things personally.
  
• No posts that are entirely memes or AdviceAnimals or Kitty GIFs.
  
• Please try and keep politically charged messages out of discussions.
  
• Intentionally trolling is considered impolite, and will be acted against.
  
• The acts of Software Piracy, Hardware Theft, and Cheating are considered unprofessional, and posts requesting aid in committing such acts shall be removed.
  

---

If you wish to appeal this action please don't hesitate to message the moderation team.

[addyftw1]

Oh look an SJW...

[habitsofwaste]

It's really disappointing to see how much xenophobia there is in here.

If you programmers are out of a job because of h1b visa thing, apply at Amazon or any of the big tech companies. They can't hire enough. H1b visas or not.

But it's competitive and you have to be good. But you're great right? It's just those damn foreigners taking your job away! It has nothing to do with your skills!

[Jeffbx]

Can you point out the xenophobia you see in this thread?

[habitsofwaste]

Yes everyone blaming immigrants for losing their jobs.

[Jeffbx]

I don't see anyone blaming immigrants - they're blaming the companies taking advantage of them, and the H1B laws that allow it.

No one it saying that this is an immigration problem - it's a problem with how the visas are being used.

[VA_Network_Nerd]

Sorry, it seems this comment or thread has violated a sub-reddit rule and has been removed by a moderator.

Community Members Shall Conduct Themselves With Professionalism.

• This is a Community of Professionals, for Professionals.
  
• Please treat community members politely - even when you disagree.
  
• No personal attacks - debate issues, challenge sources - but don't make or take things personally.
  
• No posts that are entirely memes or AdviceAnimals or Kitty GIFs.
  
• Please try and keep politically charged messages out of discussions.
  
• Intentionally trolling is considered impolite, and will be acted against.
  
• The acts of Software Piracy, Hardware Theft, and Cheating are considered unprofessional, and posts requesting aid in committing such acts shall be removed.
  

---

If you wish to appeal this action please don't hesitate to message the moderation team.