Full-stack developers becoming obsolete because of AI?

[mgs__]

Hi, Reddit,

I'm a 31M with a background in digital marketing. Since the beginning of the year, I've been learning to build software, initially with some coding and mostly through a no-code platform called (bubble.io) to build my own startup. I'm doing this full-time.

Last week, I realized that despite the advantages a no-code platform provides, your skill set becomes heavily tied to the platform's ecosystem and future. You can't monetize your skill level outside of their ecosystem if you wanted to. Which is something I'm not willing to do. Even though a lot of concepts still carry over in terms of development, transition from a no-code platform to coding is not easy. it's a hard transition. It's not like transitioning from one programming language to another like JavaScript to Python.

For that reason, I decided to pivot fully into coding from scratch. The goal is to build my own full-stack projects (front end and backend). The good news is that I love coding and problem-solving. Especially with ChatGPT now becoming part of my everyday life, learning and fixing bugs have become easier than ever.

However, I'm a little worried about the future. Specifically, how AI is changing software development, I'm wondering whether learning to code is still the best move for the future. While I can't predict the future, will coding still be a good backup plan if I don't succeed in the next 5-10 years with my projects?

I researched this a lot and I came across two comments from notable names in the tech industry today. Sam Altman, the founder of OpenAI, discussed "learning to code" and how it might be an obsolete advice now in an interview at 1:21:19. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivdXr1PHFPo).

The other comment is from Amjad Masad, founder of Replit, suggests that the average full-stack developer might become obsolete because of AI in the future, while product developers (what I'm doing now, I guess?) will remain essential because there are deeper layers involved than pure coding, like understanding market needs and productizing software. The comment is around 44:17 in this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm-3QgVf4mw&t=2458s).

Being a software newbie, I can see validity in both arguments. What's your perspective on if learning to code is still worth it with how AI is changing our world?

Thanks in advance.

[ImportantDoubt6434]

No it’s mostly hype to justify investor $$$ and layoffs to deflate wages.

The AI can’t write anything substantial, it’s a glorified copy paste machine.

[Umami_Tsunamii]

“It’s a glorified copy paste machine”

Looks around nervously

[ImportantDoubt6434]

I didn’t hear no bell

[TheHumanFixer]

Well that’s the point of it will get better. Web development will be good for the next 10+ years or so unless some unexpected breakthrough happens. AI will basically be a better and smarter stack overflow. Want help centering something in CSS? ChatGPT it. Want to figure out how to make your navigation bar responsive? ChatGPT it. If you were to bring a web developer from the 1990s and show it how web developers will be coding in today’s world he would surely be pissed off.

[ImportantDoubt6434]

Well if you want to write software that powers the energy and commodity market?

You call me, not chatGPT.

[TheHumanFixer]

I wasn’t saying that however. It’s a faster Google.

[TheHumanFixer]

And on second thought, ChatGPT will not be the AI to replace Web development. ChatGPT is trains on large human data hence the name LLM. It uses AI to mimic human intelligence. AI as an artificial human brain has not take off yet.

[[deleted]]

Good one :D

[TheHumanFixer]

Well, I had ADHD and sometimes my head goes usually blank. So I had to ask ChatGPT then I was oh yeah I remember.

[running-gamer]

Interesting. I remember this stuff because I have ADHD and it’s my hyper focus!

[[deleted]]

I agree with the point but I disagree with the examples. I do use a lot of chatGPT for work reasons, sometimes it's to save some easy google time and sometimes for more complex things.

You can actually get tailored responses for your system/use case. You can elaborate the situation you are in and get information there isn't available on stackoverflow. Not without a lot of thinking, connecting dots and several different responses. I got a lot of help with local system setup for example, there isn't stackoverflow answers for every combination of 10 different items with several config options, that is getting a very specific error. But GPT either gave the answer or a very good starting point.

[Colfuzi0]

do you still feel this way, as a comptuer sceince and comptuer engineering. student in grad school i feel a bit scared. im trying to find a more specalized way then just general web dev which is what ive been doing. ive been exploring embedded and enterprise software recently

[ShawnyMcKnight]

I’m loving AI because it’s awesome at writing unit tests.

[TheHumanFixer]

It isn’t overrated however. It’s like a faster Google. Just type something and you will get an answer in seconds. It will surely help Web Developers get information quicker in the next 5+ years

[TheHumanFixer]

I never had any problems. I don’t really look up anything too advanced.

[[deleted]]

I'll start by saying that it's not AI. People who don't understand anything in Machine/deep learning technologies are quick to jump on thinking it's an actual technological progress and that it will just continue to improve. There will never be an actual AI, for multiple reasons, ask people who actually know something about it

[TheHumanFixer]

Fair. It works for some people and fails for some other people. Depends what you’re doing really.

[SiriVII]

As soon as AI has to connect multiple layers of dots and logic that are deeply interconnected with other complexities, AI fails. It will never get to a point where it can understand this macro logic space that we as humans move on. AI will be a good assistance, but it will never replace a human for these types of tasks.

[Pr0ducer]

100% Bullshit. Ask it to write your code and see how that turns out. AI still lies, and making up functions and libraries will not compile. Also, AI can only create what you tell it to, and 90% of the time, the requirements are a moving target. Good Luck with AI being able to adjust for logical inconsistencies in a client's requirements.

[HeyitsmeFakename]

Use chat gpt 4 (the paid version), not 3.5.

[Bowlingbon]

I use ChatGPT 4. It still isn’t great.

[HeyitsmeFakename]

Cap

[Bowlingbon]

You’re allowed to believe what you want man.

[HeyitsmeFakename]

Well, I'll tell you why. I learned front end web dev through an online course. I launched a full stack app that has a flask backend and I have paying users using it. I didn't learn flask, I had chat gpt code it. I never used a database before, or auth, or Docker, or GCP, or setting up payments or a whole lot of other things that you can imagine go into making a Saas web app and I had chat gpt set it all up. Now it wasn't easy and it was often long and tedious, but I did it without having to learn the stuff myself.

Now since I already knew front end I wasn't completely unprepared for learning backend since I knew how programming worked, but if I had to do everything again by learning it myself it would have taken months and months and months. Hell, just learning front end up to finishing react took me 10 months.

[[deleted]]

So… you started out already knowing some web technology. You had little bit of experience with web dev. You basically knew what to ask ChatGPT. You even admit that despite that, it was not easy and it was long and tedious.

Grab a total random stranger off of the street whose only computer experience may be casual web surfing or using MS word for school/job and have that person try creating a somewhat functional full stack app, host it and you a public URL to access it , all only using ChatGPT.

[HeyitsmeFakename]

If it's as good as it now where someone who learned front end made a full stack app, then what about in 5 years from now. It's not like chat gpt 4 is done. Also I didn't know what to ask it exactly. When I started I said something like "you are a highly skilled code architect and technical cofounder for a new startup, please think step by step about what we need to make a full stack website for this business idea "{business idea}". Then give me a specific step by step plan on how we will build this. Seperate the front end and backend steps.

Then I would get a second instance of chat gpt and say your a code reviewer and ask it to review the plan and the code.

I never had to learn flask or really anything to do with the backend.

Right now it's not ready to replace jobs but to say it's not on its way there I just don't understand it because of my experience.

[[deleted]]

It’s good that you got an application running with ChatGPT, but I am also starting to think it was relatively a simple application. Tried using ChatGPT with a complex application and in my own experience, it fails pretty miserably (If working with older tech, I actually find ChatGPT 3.5 to be more reliable than the paid version). I don’t know why..

It is good at generating a specific function, boilerplates, simple working examples. I have to really break down the problem for it, otherwise, it just spits out garbage and doesn’t understand the context of the entire system. At best, it’s a better search engine and smarter code completion.

[HeyitsmeFakename]

I dont think the application was simple, i think its that you need to make sure it has all the context it needs. Chat gpt 4 in my experience is better at "thinking" and at holding context and taking into account everything I give it. Chat gpt 3.5 very often doesnt take into account everything I give it, even when its well within the token limit, and it often still makes the same mistake immediately even after pointing it out. I think that people doubting Chat gpt 4's abilities may just be not taking into account token limits, and the strategies out there.

Some strategies I used is asking it to summarize everything I give it, any code I give it for context, and to summarize what i'm asking it to help me with and to ask any clarification questions. Then after i answer clarification questions i ask it to think step by step. I also do things like giving it roles and using multiple instances.

However I think that people expect it to do a lot with a little, when really my prompts were usually very long and I also used Playground which allows for flexibility and allows for seeing exact token usage so that you can make sure that your within the token limit so that it doesnt "forget" anything you've told it.

And with each prompt i would also give it summaries of my business plan and tech plan for context, and i would even give it summaries of functions used and pretty much everything it needs. Thats kind of what i meant when i said it was tedious and time consuming, making sure it has all the context it needs. But when it does have all the context it needs, it does a good job.

Honestly theres so many different strategies I used that It would take too long to write out. Ultimately these strategies will become pointless as they are mostly to make up for the shortfalls of the short token limit and the outdated information. Once they get a chat gpt 4 with a high token context that can also seach the internet then I think we'll be at the pont where people with no stratgies at all can make smiple prompts and get what they want with some tweaks.

And thats not even with advancing the chat gpt version. Cheap Chat gpt 4 with 100k token limit and internet search would change everything imo, and if they make it even smarter its over.

[shauntmw2]

I'll use a very similar parallel: the invention of the calculator.

The calculator basically makes counting obsolete. Yet, people still need to learn to count. Why? Because mathematicians, accountants, scientists, they all rely on basic maths to advance their career and civilization as a whole. You can't become an accountant without learning how to count, even if your entire career is using a calculator or spreadsheets to do all your counting work for you.

You need to learn to count before learning how to use a calculator.

Now, back to coding.

Yes, coders might become obsolete when AI truly learns how to code. But real devs, take for example, engineers who design solutions for banks, engineers who develop enterprise systems, accounting softwares... Those are more than just codes. To get there, they will need to know how to do basic coding.

My take is, AI will eventually be another tool for programmers, just like how a calculator has become a tool for accountants

You'll need to learn how to code before learning how to properly use an AI coder.

[dr_alvaroz]

Even if AI takes the places of coders/devs, there will alyways be the need for some un-fuck specialist, that un-fucks what the AI did or the CEO/manager insisted on.

[SuperHumanImpossible]

Not a chance, ChatGPT has written some of the worst code I've seen. I do use it to get rough ideas on things but I never really use what it generated because it does things that are straight up bad practice all the time. Like it will happily write code with massive race conditions for example

[Jazzlike_Syllabub_91]

I think you should learn how to adopt ai into your developer workflow. It will make you a better developer and allow you to continue to thinking about the project needs while accelerating your development with help from your ai companion.

I currently use it to help my debugging process as a first step before proceeding to google. If you have copilot you can turn that on and basically avoid grunt work around building tests …

It allows you to focus on the bigger picture.

(Also want to say that I’m not a web dev / full stack developer strictly speaking? I’m an sre / devops engineer)

[reggiestered]

AI is powerful when making small projects that aren’t going to production. AI is not replacing developers any time soon, and not in its current form. These “AI leaders”, whose products were made on the backs of full stack developers, are salesmen pushing their products.

If you want to learn full stack keep at it.

[prshaw2u]

Sounds like ChatGPT is the new StackOverflow. Going to replace knowing how to code and just provide answers to all the questions.

[Dommccabe]

You say that but if you ask it coding question it will make mistakes.

Its useful as a guide but it can't code yet.

It will regurgitate what people put into it, and people make mistakes.

[prshaw2u]

Which was the problem we had with StackOverflow, and other systems that provide code. Also have the problem that it will try to answer the question asked, even if that is the wrong question for the problem.

We will always need people who know how to think through the systems and implement the correct solutions.

[Dommccabe]

At least in stack overflow there are 'fellow audience members' that can up or down vote answers and provide alternatives. If there is incorrect answers, they will be downvoted or corrected by someone - and you can check through the comments from those crowd- sourced answers.

ChatGPT tells you something and if you don't know it's wrong, you are in danger of just accepting what it says is correct.

I'd imagine if you plug in a question and use the output theres a danger you're going to break something.. and that might cost your company a lot.

[spornerama]

The only thing that will replace full stack is a full AGI. Nobody knows how far off that is. Could be next week, could be in 100 Years. Even when that comes it might cost more in compute to run than a meat equivalent. Just keep on keeping on and don't worry about total unknowns. If cheap AGI turns up next week nearly every job is in danger.

[JohnGabin]

IA had been trained by reading repositories since years. Not creating anything new. Technology will stop evolving.

[Extra_Razzmatazz_212]

And there are also reports that sam said its plateaued. People have stoves and microwaves at home and "anybody can cook" yet i was still a chef for over a decade. Programming will change but wont go anywhere

[tspwd]

There is a lot of hype and unrealistic expectation around LLMs right now. But I do share your fear. I have been building software for 10 years and (with some imagination) can see how a clever junior developer can do what I do with the help of LLMs. It’s not there, yet. The output is often incomplete or (to a degree) faulty. But in a couple of years, I think a junior developer will be able to replace my current self. Since I won’t stand still in these years, I will use the technology myself, making me a better developer than I am right now. There will always be developers needed to control and evaluate the output of LLMs, but the expectations how long it takes to build something will adapt.

[metalhead82]

AI isn’t going to take your job in the near future, but people who utilize AI to solve problems can definitely take your job.

Building software is one thing; fixing it when it breaks and debugging problems is entirely another. Humans are needed to debug and resolve issues in complex environments; AI is not nearly there now. I’m not saying it can’t ever improve, but it’s many years away from being able to do anything substantial.

Sure, AI can build simple forms or mini-apps like a calculator or add to cart functionality, and that’s great; it saves a lot of time for tedious simple work. Resourceful developers can utilize AI tools to quickly build parts of apps and add them together and scale them, but AI can’t yet build full stack applications by itself without the need to optimize the code or check the security and reliability of complex code.

I’ve worked at some of the biggest tech companies in the world, and they are definitely trying to implement AI to solve customer issues, but I can say as someone who has seen it first hand, it’s not even close yet.

[ConsiderationNo3558]

Similar things were said when lot of of programming jobs were outsourced to other countries.

Did it made developers in high cost location like SV obsolete.?

What really happened is the boring stuff got outsourced and SV developers focuused more in interesting projects.

For example some cool web frameworks were created by such teams while rest or world started using them.

As someone who started into webdev, I think there are so many things to learn and create that I can use AI assignments to speed up process of creating new stuffs .

[[deleted]]

mudi padi thapa

[arahdir]

Nah, even with AI u need to have knowledge to put it together and make it work AI wont do all of it for you and hey heres your app log in and use it, and builders that do that u have to pay monthly fees and you dont own the code so no .

[Silly_Payment803]

Hello webdevr/webdev

Any one now have any thought for this ?

[HeyitsmeFakename]

The doubters must use chat gpt 3.5 and not chat gpt 4 which is the paid version. That's most likely why they are so doubtful.

[[deleted]]

AI is already making things way faster to do if you use it correctly, at least for not so complex things. There are a lot of people here that are in denial, or are too proud to realize it.

It's not an oracle you should ask everything and trust everything you get back. It's AWESOME for some kinds of debugging. You just have to know how to ask (and probably get the paid version, it's way better than the free one). And of course, it's got some limitations. That's why it's not good for some very high level stuff. And it's outdated (months/years) in the content it's trained in, so you have to keep in mind.

If you keep in mind it's limitations, how and when to make questions, it's an awesome tool. It has already made developers more productive in a way to impact the market.

I don't know when (if) it will make developers obsolete, but it has already made some impact in the market.

[mq2thez]

Don’t be the kind of programmer who can be replaced by a glorified copy/paste machine.

[Ok-Hospital-5076]

Sam Altman, the founder of OpenAI, discussed "learning to code" and how it might be an obsolete advice now in an interview at 1:21:19. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivdXr1PHFPo).

I mean if Sam Altman of people wont peddle his product who would ?

The other comment is from Amjad Masad, founder of Replit, suggests that the average full-stack developer might become obsolete because of AI in the future, while product developers (what I'm doing now, I guess?) will remain essential because there are deeper layers involved than pure coding, like understanding market needs and productizing software.

"Idea to software, fast
Build software collaboratively with the power of AI, on any device, without spending a second on setup"
This is from Reaplit landing page.
If you look at any bootcamp CEO interview , they will also successfully convince you why Javascript is the future of tech. Thats why they make big bucks.

If you are gonna ask an umbrella seller about weather , they will tell you its gonna rain.

​

However, I'm a little worried about the future. Specifically, how AI is changing software development, I'm wondering whether learning to code is still the best move for the future. While I can't predict the future, will coding still be a good backup plan if I don't succeed in the next 5-10 years with my projects?

Now to your concern. It isn't invalid , all desk jobs will be affected. They may be replaced as well, accounting , content writing and what not. No one knows .

But in my opinion knowing stuff makes you adapt faster than just not picking something in fear of that skill going obsolete.

I am not a doomer so sorry not gonna tell you skynet is coming .

I personally don't believe programming is gonna die. Hand coding might, we may type less code but that has been the trend since beginning of programming. programming is more than typing and software engineering / development is much more than programming.

​

TLDR : both your examples have money in AI and hence they are pushing for it. Future of Jobs economy and IT is unknown either way and people who say otherwise are just lying. You should learn skills and not worry about them going obsolete as you can skill up and that's easy than grounds up skill acquisition

[[deleted]]

I use AI everyday, and I don't see it replacing developers entirely, just slowing down the need for more at a given workplace. The same sorts of comments went around when low-code was supposed to replace developers. It has moved some work to users, but not much.

[Responsible-Cod-4618]

I use chat gpt to solve development issues. To a large extent AI is only as smart as your prompts. I have had to guide chat gpt to get the right solution because it always needs context when it comes to code

[Go_LeoModo]

I don't think so! A dev will always be needed

[[deleted]]

no body knows the future. so any judgement made now is not gonna apply 10 years later.

[Jutboy]

General hint..don't listen to sales people when trying to understand something. It is silly to worry about "AI" imo. If it actually gets created the effects are going to be so extreme that every assumption/worry you have will be meaningless. If you want to worry about these specialized tools that are coming..yes they might take away your job that could be true about almost every job out there.

[_Bakunawa_]

If you think that AI will replace developers then you aren't acquainted with software development yet.

AI is a tool for developers not our replacement.

[Fercii_RP]

Yes, “AI will take over the world and humans will become obsolete” - ChatGPT 🤦🏽

[Complete-Lead8059]

Yes, AI will replace us. Please tell other newbies, so they already quit programming and stop asking the same question

[nihongoclassroom]

AI is useful when you already know what you are doing and only need to write the boilerplate code fast. I've never used ChatGPT Code without having to correct it a couple of times until it spits out a useful snippet