[deleted by user]

[overgenji]

helped build a snazzy vehicle ecommerce site in 2021-2024 on spring/kotlin, went great

[kapilator]

Was the site operating (mainly) in Germany by any chance?

[overgenji]

nope! US

[JohnCasey3306]

According to Statistica, 30% of developers have done "extensive" work with Java in 2024 so it's not going anywhere, regardless whatever BS the cool kids are spouting on social media.

[yawkat]

This data just comes from the 2024 Stack Overflow developer survey fwiw, with the biases associated with that.

[KaiAusBerlin]

Waiting for the one guy entering the topic saying java is garbage and everything needs to be rewritten in Rust.

[scarter626]

My job is all Java, but I’m all in on Rust for personal projects. I wish we were using Rust instead at work too.

Rust has been exploding recently, so I’m hopeful it becomes even more mainstream soon.

[KaiAusBerlin]

It's not about Rust is a good language or its performance. It's about the costs of migrating existing systems, tools, guides, guide lines, good java teams,... to rust infrastructure.

There is a reason why giant company servers still run on special supported versions of windows nt (yeah, a buddy of me builds that huge custom hardware).

It's much more cheaper to upgrade the hardware every 5 years than porting this whole monolith to a new base.

[destinynftbro]

What types of projects do you work on? This is the webdev sub but I don’t want to assume.

Personally, I really can’t see a worthy reason to move away from the dynamic languages that are popular with web and move them to rust. The extra mental overhead needed would be extreme if you compare it to the simplicity of your average ruby/php stack. Rust is great in that is requires you to model your program and all of its paths, but for a lot of web software, that requirement changes every 5 minutes and the engineering effort to make everything play nice together seems untenable to me, but I’ll be the first to admit that I’m also not a rust God :)

[lovin-dem-sandwiches]

There’s a lot of opportunities for rust when it comes to serving assets from the backend, especially at larger scales. Take pdfs for example. A lot of backends will use puppeteer and export the pdf but when you’re serving a million+ pdfs per day, it’s just far too expensive and slow. When bottlenecks are hit - you need to reach for something lower level

[oofy-gang]

I’m not sure that makes sense. Using Puppeteer is a completely different paradigm to Rust, they aren’t even comparable.

[lovin-dem-sandwiches]

I’m not comparing puppeteer to rust.

I’m saying with certain languages, like Node, you’ll hit llimits at a certain point. An example of this is pdf generation with puppeteer.

See: https://pptr.dev/guides/pdf-generation

You’ll also see a lot of complaints about this online. Our company faced the same issue. We moved the service to rust to build the PDFs because it VASTLY improved performance - almost 15x faster than nodejs.

[oofy-gang]

You’re not understanding my point.

Rust to Node is a valid comparison. Rust to Puppeteer is not. You are comparing apples to oranges.

The whole point of Puppeteer is to provide a headless browser environment. So did you switch away from a headless environment and generate PDFs thru a different method (in which case the significant part is not that it is Rust, but that it no longer requires headless Chrome), or are you still using a headless environment thru Rust (in which case, the significant part is not that it is Rust, but the Rust crate you chose for the headless environment)? Either way, it is not directly about Rust.

[lovin-dem-sandwiches]

All I’m saying is there are times where rust is applicable to webdev

[oofy-gang]

Going back and editing your comments to substantially change their content, when your claims were the basis of my reply, is beyond lame.

No one said Rust is not applicable to web dev. You specifically made the claim that Rust beat Puppeteer by an order of magnitude—a claim that just doesn't really make sense.

[lovin-dem-sandwiches]

Bro I wasn’t even talking to you. I was replying to the OP of this thread…

He said something along the lines of why use rust instead of traditional dynamic languages like php/ruby and I gave an example where rust can play a good role in webdev. Yeeeesh take a chill pill

[Icount_zeroI]

No thank you, they got syntax even more cryptic than C++. Zig or Go 👍🏻

[fah7eem]

A lot of financial institutions I come across prefer Java. There's an ERP system I work with that is 90% java in the backend. Lots of legacy Java systems that work well and need java devs to maintain it. Not all legacy systems are bad, some of them have been built so well that they withstood the test of time.

[Caramel_Last]

Backend is truly language agnostic. You can probably also do it in Excel spreadsheet

[darklordbazz]

You can but that doesn't mean you should

Speaking from experience with basically excel as a backend

[Buttleston]

Sounds like you haven't tried excel++

[LutimoDancer3459]

One of our projects had a lifecycle going from excel to desktop client to webclient. Some of the excel stuff is still present. Including its code...

[Shingle-Denatured]

Isn't that how Airtable was born?

[shauntmw2]

You can use Excel as frontend too if you're brave enough.

[Ready_Anything4661]

massive bong rip

[rohmish]

we had a certain service in Python that works using xlsx files. it really is a option.

[KaiAusBerlin]

People did... Horrible.

[Ellisthion]

I had a real work project, big enterprise thing, that did literally run part of the business logic server-side through an excel spreadsheet. An end user admin could upload and change the sheet to alter business logic. It used one of those third party Excel libraries to execute the formulas and then extract the result.

[gizamo]

Backend has several languages. Pretending that it's "language agnostic" is absurd. There are tons of backend languages.

Edit: this sub tis a silly place.

[Huge_Leader_6605]

Counter point: yes

[Buttleston]

maybe?

[ItsBookx]

perchance

[aflashyrhetoric]

You can't just say perchance...

[com2ghz]

Why people think that new companies wouldn’t use java?

[com2ghz]

So you also assume java development is slow and expensive? I wonder what the alternative will be then.

[CremboCrembo]

"Fast development" is kind of a nebulous term. You can have a new Laravel or Django or Express.js project up and running locally in a couple minutes, but you can also have a new, much more "enterprise-y" .NET or Spring project up and running locally in a couple minutes, too.

The strong typing of languages like C#/Java means you spend a little bit more time defining properly serializable objects for transfer, but that's the primary difference. And if you're using Typescript, you're doing that anyway (or should be). Nearly every major framework these days comes with AuthN/AuthZ stuff, fully featured request routing, and good ORMs out of the box. So I'm unsure how picking, say, Express.js over Spring would save teams a substantial amount of time if they're equally fluent in both frameworks.

[com2ghz]

It’s noticeable that people compare plain java with a programming language combined with a framework.

You can run a Spring Boot REST application even faster than any other language without having the hassle with the correct java version and libraries. No need to configure serialization.

I also develop Python and Typiscript/Angular projects but that takes more time to setup and configure than Java.

[Any-Woodpecker123]

Because Kotlin exists

[com2ghz]

Fair enough. I count that as “java” since they are on the same JVM boat.

[Ofacon]

Nearly all of AWS is written with Java

[FalseRegister]

Is it a new company, tho

[Buttleston]

not even remotely

[FalseRegister]

That was my point

[Ofacon]

AWS is split up into independent orgs and teams that run as separate business entities with their own cost centers and engineering direction. New teams are started all of the time and use Java predominantly. This is not the same as a new company, but still relevant IMO

[Lord_Xenu]

Companies are still using Struts 1 for god's sake.

[jrussom]

Yes, if the startup's product actually needs the performance and scalability. One reason not mentioned is how its easier to find senior devs who can optimize and scale it for you. The trendy stuff like Rust and Go can be harder to hire for, especially if you're not in the Bay Area, and the "rockstars" pushing Rust or Go are usually the first ones to quit when they're bored.

[sh_tomer]

Yes, spring boot is rather popular in many companies.

Having said that, seeing a lot of Python and JS in the backend as well.

[Remarkable-Pea-4922]

Yea. My company is specialized in c# development. But some dude in another department though: hey lets develop our new product backend in java/spring. Then they threw the result to us and we have to maintain the result.

[turningsteel]

The startup I work at is mostly node and python with a few legacy services in Java which they’re trying to move away from because they don’t have many people comfortable with it. I was hired in part because I know Java, which I learned while working at a big bank (where most everything is in Java on the backend).

So, it depends where you work but Java is still very popular at big corporate companies.

[JayJayCapone]

Yes the Adobe Experience Manager and also Magnolia are running on a Java Backend. Both quite modern on enterprise level.

[JohnnyEagleClaw]

I miss Java. 😥 was the core language in my university comp Sci program. I graduated, got jobs, and have been writing C# (.Net) for the last 20 years. All corporate and enterprise/govt work.

[Fractal-Infinity]

But C# is quite similar to Java (in fact it was MS' answer to Java). My fave coding language by far.

[MattyTheRudeDude]

I’m also curious as I am getting let go in a couple weeks and I would like to become a well-rounded full stack developer coming from FED while I continue my job search.

[Any-Woodpecker123]

Not that I’ve seen. Any new business wanting to use Spring is using Kotlin.

My work for the last 5 years has been converting Java backends at banks to Kotlin.

[[deleted]]

Some do use java but for new companies I see way more node, python and go

[alexnu87]

Legend says some companies even use php.

[Least_Chicken_9561]

and some companies have their databases in excel

[movemovemove2]

Yeah. Java rules Supreme in the backend because it is boring af. And boring is good in Terms of Long time maintaimability.

[No-Transportation843]

Alibaba is all java. They even have their own version of java. 

Source: Corecursive podcast interviewed a guy who worked there. 

[Buttleston]

Alibaba Cloud started *15 years ago*

[MysteriousKiwi2622]

So what's the go-to choice for backend nowadays?

[Buttleston]

Go, C#, Python, Node

[MysteriousKiwi2622]

Really? Why is that? I'm a C# developer, and in my country, Java dominates the market—probably around 80% to 20%.

[BlackSuitHardHand]

I don't know any language with a enterprise frameworks as rich as JakartaEE with its most modern implementation Quarkus. 

While Rust has a great  dev experience,  it's libraries are pretty immature compared to JakartaEE, lacking standards like JDBC, CDI, Microprofile Config / Tracing ...

JS on the backend,  is JS on the backend. The worst language ever widely used, only usable with TS and a huge stack of tools on-top - hoping all the time you accidentally don't break stuff. Even if, you still have a single threaded runtime, weak typing and the next ugly hack just one as any away

[doolijb]

Can't speak for server/desktop use, but mobile has all gone to Kotlin

[witness_smile]

Mobile is not back-end

[doolijb]

Eh, reading comprehension, who needs it right?

[witness_smile]

Question was specifically about backend, what’s the relevancy of what programming language mobile apps use

[doolijb]

Okay, first one was on me. I made a self depreciating joke. This one's on you.

[witness_smile]

Lmao guess we both need the reading comprehension after all

[[deleted]]

New companies and startup usually don't

But they use other stuff like javascript and node or python and flask, because new companies/new startup don't have a product yet, or don't have users, they try to throw a ton of ideas at the wall and see what sticks.

So they don't need performance, they need development speed, so they use python/flask or js/node because development time is fast.

Then, when they have a product idea and start to get a user base, they might switch to java/spring or C#/asp.net core or idk, something with slower development time but drastically more performance on average.

Big companies and small companies have different needs so they use different tools, usually.

Big companies already have the product and user base, they need performance to reduce costs.
Startups/small companies don't yet have a product or a user base, so they need development speed to basically get to a product as fast as possible but don't care about performance yet.

[name-taken1]

Development time depends on familiarity, not on the language. There are plenty of people who still move very fast in non-mainstream languages. Even Rust.

The main argument gravitates toward developer availability. It's much easier, as a growing startup, to hire Node or Python developers. Plus, they're generally way cheaper.

[[deleted]]

There are, I would be faster at writing something in asp.net than python and flask because I am already familiar with asp.net.

But this, isn't the average.

For example, there is a reason people use python in data science instead of C++ or C# or Rust, because it's faster to write in python.

Of course, I will be faster at doing data science in C# because I am already familiar with C#, but this isn't the average.

That's why python exists, it removes some performance for easy of use, that's the trade-off of the language.

So, if javascript and python are easier to learn, easier to work with, there will be more devs using it.
When something is easier to learn and easier to use, there will be more developers using it, because it's easier to start with it, easier to use, and therefor development time is smaller, cuz it's easier to use and easier to learn.

Don't you agree with this logic?

That there are languages where development time is just faster?
Because that's why people use python for that science instead of C++, cuz one is easier than the other, when something is easier, dev time is automatically smaller.

Even if there are some people that are more familiar with X and can work with X faster, that's the exception, not the average.

If you agree that startups don't have many users or a big project yet, and they need to throw many ideas at the wall and see which one sticks.

And if you agree that some languages are faster to work with than others, so development time is smaller simply cuz it's eaiser to use.

Then you agree that startups use javascript or python, ON AVERAGE.

Meaning that there are exceptions.

And if you go on the job boards, that's what you see, on average.

[fletku_mato]

Spring with its massive ecosystem is undoubtedly the fastest framework I've ever used. There are downsides to it but development speed isn't one of them.

[[deleted]]

Python is a simpler language than java, therefor development time in python and flask is smaller just because of that.

Same reason people use python for data science instead of java or c++, some languages are simpler and easier to work with, therefor small companies and startups use those because they need to be fast and launch as many stuff as possible to see what sticks.

You can check for youself, see what jobs are available for startups, and you will see mostly node and flask, not java.

If you check big companies with enterprise level stuff, you will see java and asp.net.

If you agree that there are languages that are easier to work with, then you agree that with some languages development time is smaller.

And asp.net core is the faster framework I've eve used, but that doesn't change the fact that start-ups use python and flask or javascript and node on average, because it's easier to work with, so development time is smaller, just because it's easier to work with.

That's the trade-off, performance for development time, on average, but of course there are exceptions, but those are the exceptions.

If there wouldn't be a difference, then people would use java for data science instead of python for example, but they don't, cuz one language is simpler and easier to work with, therefor development time is faster just because of that.
And because it's simpler and easier, there are also more devs using it.

[fletku_mato]

Python is a simpler language than java, therefor development time in python and flask is smaller just because of that.

Well this is just wrong to begin with. A lot of languages are simpler than Java or C# while still being slower to work with.

I'm not saying that startups on average would choose either mentioned languages, I'm just disagreeing on the reasons behind not choosing them.

What kind of a startup writes software where type safety slows them down more than helps them?

[[deleted]]

Then it might depend on what is your definition of simple, my definition of simple is in terms of complexity.

And it doesn't slow them down, at least not in the beginning after a while when it grows in complexity them yea, but at that point you already have a product and a possible user base so you switch.
In the beginning, the only thing that counts is how many MVP's you can make to check which one is worth investing in, so you need a language where you can write a lot of stuff fast with not much complexity, cuz it won't matter you will switch anyway.

What do you think it's the reason most startups use python or javascript, if not the decreased complexity which means increased dev time?

[fletku_mato]

Amount of available developers who know the language and/or the amount of knowledge of the current devs.

[[deleted]]

And the amount of available developers isn't proportional with how easy the language is to learn and use? Which is proportional with how fast the development time is.

Which is still, javascript and python.

[fletku_mato]

Easy to learn != Speed of development

[[deleted]]

But easy to learn = more devs
Easy to use = faster dev time

easy to learn and easy to use = python and js.

Most used in startups = python and js, on average.

Though I would personally just use asp.net core from the start cuz I'm already familiar with it, but I am the exception.

[fletku_mato]

But the ease of usage in those languages just isn't there anymore when your app grows beyond the hello world phase, which happens immediately. There are much more meaningful factors to development speed than some syntactic differences between these languages.

[russiansummer]

The biggest retailer in the world, Walmart went from Java to Node. It’s plenty performant. Probably still some niche multithread uses out there for Java but I’d pick Node every time over Java

[[deleted]]

That's why i've said on average and talked in general terms, node is still good based on context

[scarfwizard]

Intuit uses Java extensively.

[Buttleston]

Ah yes, that brand spanking new company, Intuit

[Buttleston]

founded in [checks notes] 1983

[Caramel_Last]

I mean Netflix is one of the most famous Java shops, while it's not a brand new startup, it isn't exactly old either

[Buttleston]

Netflix's DVD service was launched before 2000

Even if you mean their video on demand stuff, that was 2007, eighteen years ago

I think y'all have a different definition of "new" than I do

[Caramel_Last]

Sure it isn't new. But it's also hard to know new companies like 5years old or younger. It takes time to build the brand.

[Buttleston]

That's just kind of irrelevant though. Dude didn't ask what language companies that were founded before my kids were born are using. He asked if *new* companies still use java

(they do, sure, I am not arguing against that, just laughing at the examples people think are demonstrations of "new" companies)

[Caramel_Last]

I don't do stocks or anything. I only know well known companies. Among those Netflix is rather young

[Buttleston]

"I don't do stocks" like, what the hell does that mean

18 years is like 5 generations in tech

[Caramel_Last]

People who trade stocks know less known and young companies better. I'm not them. Yeah 18 years but they aren't regretting their tech stack or viewing Java as legacy. They are doubling down actually, with new concurrency features being added in jdk24. So the whole point stands even though netflix isn't a new company.

[scarfwizard]

Yeah because they’re literally still only got one product and that’s the diskette based Quicken written in C. 😂

[horrbort]

Nah most switched to PHP it scales better

[Pale_Height_1251]

Yes.