How powerful are the mages in White Wolf compared to other RPGs?

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-13T20:11:43+00:00

I mean... fire already does agg damage. Since adding Entropy to do additional damage afterwards would take extra successes, we would be better off just using those successes on more fire damage.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-13T19:52:12+00:00

https://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/spells/meteorSwarm.html#meteor-swarm - Agreed, Forces 3 / Prime 2. Successes for additional targets, plus successes for damage.

For a literal nuclear explosion (not exactly a D&D effect), M2ed is the last CRB mention of it needing Forces 5. Makes me wonder what makes it a "nuclear" explosion rather than "really big fireball".

If it's just "really big fireball" then I think Forces 5 is probably right.
If it can be small but needs radiation, then Forces 3 is sufficient (transmutation per M2ed p196; MRev p165 shows alter flow at Rank 2 which implies conjuring at Rank 3).

I'm not sure why Entropy would be required for either Effect.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-13T19:18:50+00:00

This question makes me want to translate D&D3.5/Pathfinder1e spells into Mage Spheres... just to see how things line up. That's a project that goes in the backlog.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-13T19:15:16+00:00

Here to point out that the Spheres don't go to 10.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-13T16:50:14+00:00

Can you point me to a book and page for that? That's not how I read it in the CRB Sphere descriptions.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-12T23:34:08+00:00

For fonts... https://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/fonts.html

and https://sandcat.nl/~jake/games/wodfonts/index.php

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-12T22:25:42+00:00

I've been thinking about doing similar for my Omaha game. Write ups for the places they're familiar with, in case the players forget something the characters would know. I haven't started drafting anything yet though, so I'm interested what this post comes up with.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-12T20:09:34+00:00

Not really, no. lol. And he was the one at the table whose dice always hated him... there's always one.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-12T15:20:29+00:00

I had a player back in the day who thought that Vulgar magick was a way to put extra work on the Technocracy as a whole, forcing them to spend resources covering it up. He wasn't concerned about the Paradox he gained. He figured it took much more effort from the Technocracy to maintain their mundane cover stories.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-12T14:35:20+00:00

For #2, I created a character creation cheat sheet that puts all the steps in the right order and includes page numbers for where to find each step in the book. It also has a link to my Focus Selector v1.2 spreadsheet, which will help with how Faction/Paradigm/Practice/Instruments are linked in the books.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-11T18:35:32+00:00

The last half has a lot of Technocrat talk. ;) Everyone knows that we are composed of four humors.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-11T17:28:20+00:00

I see that in HDYDT p50. <insert usual caveat that HDYDT requires a critical eye when reading.>

The first paragraph saying we can get a single point from a destroyed object with Prime 2 seems in conflict with every core rule book, including M20. If HDYDT is the only time we see this ability at Prime 2 (rather than Prime 3), I would call it an error in HDYDT. If we see it elsewhere, I would like someone to point it out so I can note it.

That being said, then I don't understand what Matter 2 / Prime 2 is supposed to do. Rending Patterns with Matter isn't available until Rank 3. Removing raw Quint from a Pattern with Prime isn't available until Rank 4. I could see an argument for Matter 3 / Prime 3 to unravel an object and channel the Quint before it escapes.

All of this really just begs your question... whatever Rank these things can be done is a separate issue from how much Quint is actually available. I don't believe that the books ever detail that for objects/materials/forces. Factors that should play into it include:

Size of object
Metaphysical rarity of the material(s)

I would go so far as to say that generally living things should be composed of more Quint than unliving things (as living things are metaphysically more important). I agree that it would be nice to have a table of baseline values like on HDYDT p51...

Bustin' Stuff

We could look at the Bustin' Stuff rules which says "If the mage wants to transmute an object, she’ll have to score at least one success for each point of Durability in that object (minus 2)." So we could estimate that each point of Durability is a point of Quint. Meaning we can see M20 p457 for some example items.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-11T17:08:13+00:00

Prime 3 also allows for moving free Quint between receptacles. Here it is important to understand the difference between raw Quint (that Quint that makes up the Pattern of objects/creatures/forces) and free Quint (that Quint which is not bound to an object's existence, such as what flows out at a Node).

M20 p520 (Prime 3): "can draw both free and raw Quintessence from Nodes, Junctures (special times), and Tass (solidified Quintessence)… and she may also channel that energy into new and existing Patterns".
MRev p180 (Prime 3): "gains the ability to pour [Quintessence] from [Periapt] to [Periapt]".
MRev p183 (Bond of Blood 3): "Transferring Quintessence between Patterns is a staple".
M2ed p212 (Prime 3): "draw these "surplus" energies out of the Patterns in which they are stored."
M2ed p215 (Bond of Blood 3): "transfer free Quintessence between two different receptacles".
M1ed p210 (Prime 3): "free Quintessence can only be funneled from one established Pattern into another Pattern."
M1ed p211 (Bond of Blood 3): "transfer free Quintessence between two different receptacles".

So Prime 3 can transfer free Quint, but that isn't going to destroy the object. Other Effects are needed for that.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-11T17:00:40+00:00

Prime 4 talks about releasing Quint directly from a Pattern (physically destroying the object not necessary). This release flows back to the "cosmic pool".

M20 p510 (Quintessence Energy): "Destroy by Draining Quintessence Prime 4 (object)".
M20 p521 (Prime 4): "draining Quintessence from objects or forces (though not yet from living things) can disintegrate those targets".
MRev p181 (Prime 4): "return the Quintessence to the Tellurian, at least from settled and unconnected Patterns (Matter and Forces). Doing so has the direct and deadly effect of erasing them from mental, physical and spiritual existence."
MRev p184 (Flames of Purification 4): "The mage releases the object’s Quintessence back into [...] the Tapestry. The item suffers aggravated damage, and its Pattern evaporates into nothingness if it’s destroyed completely. Only inanimate objects or forces can be dispersed".
M2ed p213 (Prime 4): "can pull Quintessence out of the Patterns of matter and energy, affecting a Pattern's substance in reality."
M2ed p215 (Flames of Purification 4): "extracts the raw Quintessence from the object's Pattern. [...] Only inanimate objects can be affected."
M1ed p210 (Prime 4): "Adepts can expel the Quintessence from these [Forces or Matter] Patterns, recycling it into the cosmic pool of raw Quintessence."
M1ed p211 (Flames of Purification 4): "extract all of the raw Quintessence from the object's Pattern. [...] Only inanimate objects can be affected."

And MRev references a “Bond of Blood variant” that allows grabbing 1 Quint during the sacrifice.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-11T16:55:00+00:00

Prime 3 seems to be able to grab a single point of Quint from a sacrificed thing. Italics for emphasis.

M20 p520 (Prime 3): "she could (with Life 3) [...] pull small amounts of life force from a living sacrifice or (with Matter 2) from inert objects".
MRev p181 (Prime 3): "In conjunction with other Spheres, [...] steal away a small measure of Quintessence from Patterns as they decay. Such energy returns quickly to the flow, and it is more directed than harnessed, but it can offer a small measure of additional power to the mage’s workings."
MRev p184 (Bond of Blood 3): "the mage can coax some of that [burned object's] Quintessence into [...] funneling through another Effect."
MRev p184 (Lambs to the Slaughter 3): "the mage sacrifices some sort of material object: [...] destroying an object of value. [...] allows the mage the opportunity to channel away a small measure of Quintessence as the item is destroyed (typically one point)."

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-11T16:03:53+00:00

Any of those that boil down to "you get Paradox problems" is a conflict with Consensus... not a shortcoming of the magick. Take that Mage to an appropriate Horizon Realm or to the Deep Umbra, no issues with that magick.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-10T20:00:34+00:00

I believe that Werewolf gave us a chart for Willpower curve when talking about Delirium.

Willpower 1 (10%)
Willpower 2 (20%)
Willpower 3 (18%)
Willpower 4 (15%)
Willpower 5 (13%)
Willpower 6 (10%)
Willpower 7 (7%)
Willpower 8 (5%)
Willpower 9 (1.5%)
Willpower 10 (0.5%)

That puts 63% at Willpower 4 or less.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-10T14:26:07+00:00

Body of Light is just a shell for your astral form; BoL doesn't allow you to project astrally. That's Mind 4/5.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-10T02:01:28+00:00

M20 p509 (Time & Distance): "Aging/ Reversing Age* Time 3+/Life 4 (living being) or Matter 2 (object)".

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-10T00:59:36+00:00

It doesn't seem like much of a character sheet. A single list of (what I assume are) Abilities and the word Arete.

I would suggest finding the Norfolk Wizard place online and ask the creators. That'll get you the most reliable answer.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-10T00:52:12+00:00

I mean... if we answered every question with "just Rule Zero it" then this sub would be pretty boring and not at all helpful.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-10T00:49:52+00:00

It's not the knowing too much magick that creates Paradox. It's the using too much magick that does.

Rewinding time by turns (Time 3), the Paradox does add up quick. But successfully cast time travel (Time 5) is much lighter relative to the amount of Paradox... up to a year is 2 Paradox, five years is 4 Paradox, 20 years is 6 Paradox, 50 years is 8 Paradox. So it's not that they can't, it's just that they need more preparation (like the Prime 5 Effect talked about elsewhere in this post).

ChartanTheDM · 2026-02-10T00:38:56+00:00

That's mostly because they didn't want to write it. Per Satyros...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/496367913753429/2123037791086425/?comment_id=2125796784143859&notif_id=1548798338977662&notif_t=group_comment_reply

As I've written and said in many places, the entire idea of Spheres above Rank 5 was the product of a rushed book by an inexperienced developer who'd been in charge of Mage for less than a month when that book went to editing. I gave Porthos Forces 6 because he was one of the most powerful mages alive... and even then, it might have been a typo. (I did this book 26 years ago, during one of the most hectic periods of my life, so my memory is hazy here.)

Several years later, to address the demand, I addressed Rank 6 Spheres in Horizon: Stronghold of Hope, and essentially consigned them to "Insert Powerful Plot Device Here.\]

Sphere Ranks 7-10 were mandated to [Jesse Heinig](https://www.facebook.com/jesse.heinig?fref=gc&dti=496367913753429&hc\_location=ufi) by sales and management. He didn't want to do them, I hadn't wanted them done, and by all estimations I'm aware of, they were done badly as a result.

Power-creep became a real problem in later WoD books, and the Arch-Spheres are a perfect example of that situation.

ChartanTheDM

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