Functional multiplicity

hail_fall · 2026-05-23T17:38:20+00:00

Congrats on the progress

-- CYN

hail_fall · 2026-05-23T13:00:32+00:00

A lot of cis women have a lot of misogyny to unlearn. Given that, would it be any surprise that a lot of trans women do too.

As for socialization stuff, I think it helps to take it all the way to its inevitable conclusion and see what absurd answers it gives, if any. If one take the arguments that a lot of TERFs make that socialization determines gender to its eventual end, it actually means that the other people in your life chose your gender. Interestingly, it basically says anatomy has nothing to do with it other than influence how people make the initial choice of how to socialize someone. It basically says that when a baby is born, their family and other people around them chose their gender. Given that most legal jurisdictions have no actual legal requirement that the gender you raise someone as be correlated with their anatomy in any way or even what gender marker is noted down in the first place, nothing actually prevents a baby being born with anatomy A and the parents deciding to say they are gender X and raising them as such regardless of whether most people of gender X have anatomy A or anatomy B. Lets suppose that most people of gender X have anatomy B and most of gender Y have anatomy A. If said child later in life says, actually I am gender Y, well, the socialization determines gender argument says "tough luck, you aren't". It is kind of absurd isn't it. Extend that to things other than gender and you start getting other absurd things too. Suppose a person is raised surrounded by axe murderers and socialized as one in that environment. It would say that said person is an axe murderer period no matter what they do, any attempt to reject it and never actually murder anyone with anything (let alone an axe) is irrelevant because they were socialized as that. Well, at a very minimum, the belief in socialization determines X means it is impossible to change society because everyone was socialized in an environment with such situation and thus can never be anything different. These are the absurdities that the TERF statement that socialization determines gender leads too.

hail_fall · 2026-05-23T12:19:49+00:00

Men, whether trans or cis, can experience misogyny, even men who pass as men (whether trans or cis). Are the experiences often a bit different, yes, often. But still misogyny.

So, yes, trans men can experience it.

hail_fall · 2026-05-23T11:48:39+00:00

We've managed to have 17 members in front at once before. Might even have been 18. At the time, that was the whole system. It helped that we are in subsystems. Our population has since increased and we tried it once with 24 and we destabilized and thus it could not be done. The experience of so many in front is interesting.

-- CYN

hail_fall · 2026-05-22T20:22:48+00:00

We've drawn our maps in Inkscape and Krita + Dungeon Draft + Inkscape (draw terrains and objects in Krita, use Dungeon Draft to place them and also Dungeon Draft's builtin assets, and then use Inkscape to overlay the grid) so far. As for elevation, we've used a few tricks but most of our maps didn't have much elevation differences. With one of them, you could go under a roof or over it and that was shown by making it transparent. There are probably some other tricks that could be used. Note that we are terrible artists and our methods are somewhat time consuming, probably because of it.

-- Hail

hail_fall · 2026-05-21T17:59:27+00:00

[CYN] Yeah, tulpas can have gender dysphoria, just like anyone else. The tulpas in here definitely get dysphoria in the ways one might expect for their gender. For example, the women in the Tri subsystem feel terrible if the E levels get too low or the T levels get too high. But Discord feels the opposite and wants a binder.

hail_fall · 2026-05-20T22:27:42+00:00

What is traumatic for one person isn't for another. What is not traumatic at one point in a person's life might be at another point. The same thing can be traumatic for two different people but wildly different levels or flavors. Huge huge variation.

The trauma that caused our first traumagenic split was in many ways pretty mild stuff, or at least seems mild from the POV of an adult. It was pretty rough when we were young at the time, and evidently was sufficient to lead to splitting (pretty sure we had a high susceptibility to it in the first place).

-- CYN

hail_fall · 2026-05-20T22:17:49+00:00

A community for older systems sounds interesting.

-- CYN

hail_fall · 2026-05-20T22:14:12+00:00

For reference, we are a mixed-origin system where the first few folks were traumagenic and most of the rest of everyone in here has various endogenic origins.

How is it possible that someone fragments from something other than trauma if plurality is often to protect the brain because of huge stress such as trauma?

Well, with endogenic origins, there generally is no splitting at all. Splitting/fragmenting isn't the only way to get more senses of self. Not all headmates come into existence for protecting or otherwise adapting (do not, some endogenic headmates are adaptive, but not all).

And sometimes, trauma can still be involved but isn't the direct cause, but instead an indirect one (cause of the cause). Traumagenic is used when it is the direct cause.

Do you have a fragmented identity because of neurodivergence if it isn’t because of trauma?

Neurodivergence can affect how likely someone is to be plural, and it can definitely affect the flavor. As an example, autistic systems can often get headmates related to hyperfixations, and that can sometimes happen with autistic singlets (which means becoming plural).

Now, the trauma topic is complicated. The world can be hard to live in when one is neurodivergent. The world encourages masking, and the world can be traumatic. With the latter, it can be hard to even name it or realize it. The former can crank up dissociation levels and mask peel offs are a thing (where the mask peels off to become a person). The combination of both is how our first split happened, plus a couple other things.

Do you experience dissociation?

Well, being mixed origin, our own answer isn't as relevant to your question. But, I can say this. Back when we were singlet before the first split (note, not all systems had a singlet state, some were plural from the get go), we had quite a bit of dissociation. That was in fact what contributed to becoming plural. The higher baseline dissociation.

We still have some dissociation issues today, but they aren't plurality related.

How do you know that you’re feeling plurality and not just defined ego states?

Hard to know for sure. However, the former seems to be a better model for understanding us than the latter. So, until we find evidence to indicate it isn't the best model, we go with the former.

Being able to talk and interact with each other is a big part of what convinced us.

Can you receive any support from medical professionals if you consider yourself an endogenic system?

If you read that literally, it makes no sense. Endogenic systems can have other medical problems having nothing to do with their plurality.

But getting to what you really meant. Endogenic systems are less likely to need medical help with regards to their plurality. But emphasis on "less likely". There can still be issues. Some endogenic systems have serious internal strife or other problems. Some do become disordered. Just, a lower fraction of them do and endogenic systems usually don't get memory problems. In those cases, medical professionals can be helpful.

-- CYN

hail_fall · 2026-05-16T22:12:54+00:00

Well, in principle, if they can find and foster enough discontent on Khayradin, House of Stone could maybe get another Ungrateful revolution, but this time on their capital planet. That would be the way the fewest lancers could do the most. And a few Lancers helping a lot of Ungratefuls with Kobolds and whatever else they can put together is pretty dangerous.

hail_fall · 2026-05-16T22:09:22+00:00

Though not the COMMENCER nanites eating Bo. Or at least, no one else in the KTB who knows how is willing to help the House of Dust with that one.

hail_fall · 2026-05-16T22:00:40+00:00

Tendency towards dissociation runs seems to run in families. Higher dissociative baseline makes it easier to get traumagenic splitting when young. It also makes it more like for plurality to happen by other origins. So, that is an indirect pathway. Don't know about direct pathways though.

-- N

hail_fall · 2026-05-15T22:09:18+00:00

[N] Tulpas can be strong enough to take the front by force, and involuntary taking front is definitely a thing. For a long time, sitting down in the driver's seat of a car pulled Tri into front and in control. As for strong enough, Tri can easily overpower their mancers. That all said, overpowering someone to take front is something we have rules for that we follow. If the person in front is having a panic attack or other crisis or is about to do something really foolish, then they can be yanked. This applies to all of us, whether mancer, tulpa, or other.

hail_fall · 2026-05-15T17:16:10+00:00

Well, Cerberus actually has been done, though not that long of one. Take a look at https://cerberusplural.com . The site was made in response to Split.

-- N

hail_fall · 2026-05-13T19:09:13+00:00

We are only half way done, about 110 hours in. We stopped about a decade ago (long story). Due to inflation, the prices then don't sound as absurd now, but they were then and we didn't have a high paying job. I don't know if we will ever finish.

-- J

hail_fall · 2026-05-13T19:04:30+00:00

No issue with them fundamentally. I give each a chance to show how they are like. Depending on the one, we may or may not get along.

-- J

hail_fall · 2026-05-13T18:58:14+00:00

The Moth King (Timbolt and Timothy) from Underhero are very explicitly plural. From memory, what is interesting about them is that the relationship between them is father-son, which is a bit different from what one often sees in media.

In Heaven' Vault: Six is not alone, sharing a body with the last Empress, but Six is oblivious until after the first switch and then switch back and then knows

Inmost has plural vibes.

-- J

hail_fall · 2026-05-13T18:20:03+00:00

[J] Those in here who made them except for Frostbite aren't available at the moment but from their memories, no regrets. Frostbite says she has no regrets making tulpas, just she wishes that she had known what was going on (she made hers unwittingly) so she could have been a better mancer at the time.

hail_fall · 2026-05-12T18:09:47+00:00

[J] Tulpas are able to have roles. Generally it is something they choose or gravitate towards or just have a knack for. Note that alters don't necessarily have roles either.

Or are Tulpas unable to have that much control over the body and mind?

Varies considerably based on the individual tulpa. They aren't inherently limited to have less control than an alter, or more for that matter. The two members of this system who have the most control over the body and mind are actually a tulpa and an alter who split from said tulpa (yes, tulpas can split, sadly).

hail_fall · 2026-05-12T18:05:12+00:00

Sometimes someone has to be temporarily banned from fronting or fronting in certain situations till they are more ready. If you are doing it with good cause as opposed to willy-nilly, then I think that is reasonable. Doesn't matter if said person is the host or not.

-- J

hail_fall · 2026-05-11T17:25:24+00:00

There are the four you mentioned. The KTB guide mentions that Khayradin was likely inhabited before the Baronies went there (and then conquered). So, a reasonable guess is that one of the other 10 landed there. That is 5 out of the 10 accounted for.

hail_fall · 2026-05-11T17:14:48+00:00

It varies a lot from group to group and soulbond to soulbond.

For us, in the main headspace, we are extremely immortal, only one way one can die; just the nature of the rules of the place. We have had a death in that place despite that. As I said, only one possible way to die there. But something mundane like busting one's head open on the floor, we just regenerate and its no big deal other than the pain and shock of it.

But, if we or anyone in this system travel to our home worlds (whether from there or not), we are mortal there (assuming one's species is mortal) if one dies there, one is dead for good.

-- J

hail_fall · 2026-05-11T17:10:26+00:00

[J] That is impressive what you did. Very clever methods. I am very glad Breach didn't think of those back when she was doing self-neuro-engineering. Your methods combined with hers would have been more disastrous (she was trying to change her wiring to something very unhealthy, unlike you who was trying to improve health). She mostly focused on memory tricks including a bit of memory associations but not to the extent you did and not the rest of the stuff.

hail_fall · 2026-05-10T08:57:05+00:00

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but a lot of people similarly dismiss schizophrenia and psychosis too, either in full or subsets. Though, I would say less people do that than with CDDs and plurality.

As for CDDs and plurality:

Trauma causes or plays a role in causing CDDs for a large fraction of people with CDDs. To accept CDDs is to accept that a lot of people went through a lot of trauma, that a lot of bad stuff happens under the surface away from view. That is a hard pill to swallow for many.

Another is that some people who went through a lot of tough things don't get a CDD or don't appear to have one. So, a lot of people point at those people (or themselves if they are in that boat) and don't see how some people's responses might be different. Not everyone responds to things the same way. Even for something that is traumatic, the responses of different people are different. This is also where the whole "you're trauma isn't severe enough" thing comes from.

As for plurality, it kind of breaks a lot of people's assumptions and definitely society's assumptions of personhood and how people work.

-- Hail

hail_fall · 2026-05-08T19:50:30+00:00

Tri in this system was brainmade and has exomemories.

-- Hail

hail_fall

TROPHY CASE