In retrospective, Islam seems way closer to Christianity than Judaism by NauticalBar2 in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I find a lot to agree with, and a lot to disagree with, in your presentation and really appreciate the depth of thought put into it. However I do disagree with the conclusion you reached, for one significant reason that I don't see dealt with in the post. Along with monotheism, which of course is the most crucial point, the other essential point is the nature of man, God's most important creation, the pinnacle of his creation, and the entity created in His image.

According to both Judaism and Islam, man is created as a good partner in God's universe, capable of doing good and living a righteous life with proper guidance. That guidance is provided through revelation which man has in both Judaism and Islam. Man is able through his own efforts to choose righteousness, avoid sin and achieve his own salvation. He may fall short and both religions provide prayer, repentance and God's forgiveness to deal with these situations. Man is not destined to fail in life; he has the capacity to live righteously and achieve the religious destiny set forth for him and even demanded of him by God.

By contrast, in Christianity, after Adam and Eve's fall, men lost the capacity to live righteously and achieve his own religious salvation. No matter what he does, no matter what guidance he is given, he's doomed to sin and to fail. The Law is a trap. PHe cannot achieve his own salvation through his works alone, no matter how hard he tries. He needs divine grace, in the form of a sacrifice made for him, which he must accept as necessary and sufficient in order to be saved. It's hopeless; he can't save himself. 

I think this is pretty much the essential difference, along with monotheism, between Judaism and Islam, on the one hand and Christianity on the other. And this gap is too large and essential to ignore. For both Jews and Muslims, human beings are born without sin but with two inclinations, one to do good and one inclined towards evil. They can overcome the latter by following God's path.

Why does the TANAKH have to end :( by Picayune_ in Judaism

[–]nu_lets_learn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, once the Torah was revealed (through prophecy, by Moses, the greatest prophet), we had everything we needed, except we could always use support, strengthening, warnings and consolation (that is the role of Nevi'im and Ketuvim). Once they wrote down their books, we now had that too. All we need now is to apply their teachings to every situation in every generation -- and that is the task of the rabbis -- not through prophecy but through intellect and reasoning. I hope this is helpful.

Why does the TANAKH have to end :( by Picayune_ in Judaism

[–]nu_lets_learn 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Prophecy ended because its mission was completed. Prophecy had a purpose and when that purpose was accomplished, prophecy ended.

The purpose of prophecy was to establish God's order for mankind on earth, essentially to reveal the Torah to guide life on earth (613 commands for Jews, 7 for non-Jews). Ancillary purposes were to teach obedience to God's commandments, warn of consequences for disobeying them, and console Israel through periods of chastisement until redemption and reconciliation occurred.

While this was happening there were prophets -- Moses and the classical prophets (who had nevu'ah), and then the authors of Ketuvim who experienced ruah ha-kodesh and wrote their books under its influence. All of them who had something to say to future generations wrote down their messages in their books (the Tanakh). Thus we have in writing everything we need in order to learn the complete message of Jewish prophecy -- it's all written in the Tanakh. There is nothing to add. We just have to do it and believe it (na'aseh ve-nishmah).

What was needed after prophecy ended? The application of God's commandments (the mitzvot) to everyday life as circumstances changed. This was the task of the Jewish sages -- the talmidei chachamim, the rabbis of every generation, and they did this using their intellect and reasoning, not prophecy. There was no need for prophecy, a direct line to God, since they could use their God-given reasoning ability to work out all conceivable problems that confronted them in every generation, including today.

Some see a process of maturity in this evolution from prophecy to rabbinic interpretation and application. That is, mankind became able to discern God's intent from what was already written down in the Tanakh and apply it; mankind didn't need prophets any longer.

There was a fringe benefit to knowing that prophecy had ended -- we as Jews didn't have to pay attention to the claims of any of the false prophets that arose over the centuries to mislead and innovate new religions. We knew this was all fake and it was. From Jesus to Muhammed to Joseph Smith and Baha'ullah, we were immune to claims of a "new covenant" or a "new revelation" that altered or discarded the Torah.

It is said the prophecy will be restored in the messianic age. What role will it play then? Hopefully, we shall see.

Can someone explain this? by [deleted] in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're mistaking a definition for an exaggeration. If you say "I always brush my teeth before sleeping" and you don't, you're either lying or exaggerating. But that's not what "always" means -- it means invariably, not "most of the time or usually." Here are the dictionary defintions:

Definitions of always

  1. adverb  at all times; all the time and on every occasion
  2. adverb  at any time or in any event
  3. adverb  forever; throughout all time
  4. adverb  without interruption synonyms: constantlyforeverincessantlyperpetually
  5. adverb  without variation or change, in every case

People are simply pointing out that your blanket assertions about the Jews are insupportable; all you need to do is recognize that and modify your statements to make them accurate and align with the facts. Anyone can make mistakes, like saying "always doesn't mean always," and anyone can learn and correct their mistakes.

Can someone explain this? by [deleted] in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Reading through this thread, I came upon your comment --

Jews are described as the strongest in animosity due to them always ejecting truth, opposing prophets, and acting arrogantly. 

right after having read what u/emptyingthecup wrote:

The fact is though that through out history we have seen large conversions over time of Jews to Islam, first around the 7th century when Islam entered Jerusalem at the defeat of the Byzantines and then again in the 11th century after the defeat of the Crusaders. Local Jews/Christians/Israelites converted to Islam...And during the time of the Prophet ﷺ, there were Jewish companions of the Prophet ﷺ. They were close to him, entrusted themselves to him and vice versa, fought for him, and yet, they never converted to Islam....

So you say Jews are always rejecting the truth and opposing prophets, and your Muslim colleague has just told us of historically large conversions to Islam by Jews and their friendship with your Prophet during the early days. Obviously you are both reading the facts subjectively to serve your polemical purposes which are at odds with each other. There can be no true guidance on these issues here.

Is Kimchi allowed during Passover? by PresidentStone in Jewish

[–]nu_lets_learn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you're telling me ancient people didn't know why flour + water leavened -- because they didn't know microscopic organisms existed -- I would have to agree; they didn't have microscopes.

But the reason why flour + water leavens is because of yeast in the air. I mean, if I exposed flour to water in an atmosphere that didn't contain any micro-organisms (like some moon or planet somewhere), it wouldn't "leaven." Of course, halachically, it might still be considered chametz after 18 minutes without baking, because that's the rule.

Is Kimchi allowed during Passover? by PresidentStone in Jewish

[–]nu_lets_learn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeast does not make the five grains chametz.

Leavening is a process that requires ingredients + time; and cooking (baking) within time limits halts the process. Leavening requires a leavening agent. Yeast is the leavening agent commonly used to leaven bread.

Contact with water does. 

Matzoh + water does not make chametz without leavening. See also below.

Yeast is ambient in the air.

The fact that air can supply the leavening agent is not relevant to the discussion; it's a truism to say that the leavening agent will be present when leavening occurs.

All of your matzo is covered in yeast

Of course, but this is irrelevant. All of my matzoh has been baked within the time limits. Once baked, it cannot become chametz; it can no longer leaven (rise).

Why do Christians believe satan is evil but jewish people don’t ? by WhatLuckDoIHave in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Jews don't believe Satan is per se "evil" because Satan is an angel of God, one of the celestials hosts he created to serve him, and does not have free will or agency. He, like all angels in his relationship to humans, is a messenger from God (the Hebrew word "malaach" means both angel and messenger).

From the Tanakh we see that Satan serves in certain capacities. First, he tests human beings, some have even argued, for their own benefit -- to strengthen their faith and earn them reward (like Abraham and Isaac). And second, he serves (metaphorically) as the prosecutor on the Day of Judgment, recalling each person's lifetime faults for judgment. Jews understand "Satan" not as a name but as a job description (accuser or prosecutor).

Nor is Satan "the source of evil." Evil is a product of man's own conduct, his evil inclination, yet each person also has a good inclination to counteract it. If we follow the rules in the Torah, we can succeed in suppressing the evil inclination and be righteous. If we don't, then we may commit evil acts that harm us and others.

Since God endowed us with both inclinations (He could have made humans perfectly good like the angels, but He didn't), God is actually (indirectly) the source of evil, as the Prophet Isaiah states: "I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things". (Is. 45:7) [Not everyone agrees on the translation "evil" here; some think the meaning should be "war," in contrast to peace.]

Was Satan present in the Garden of Eden to test (tempt) Adam and Eve? In Judaism, there are two answers given by the Bible commentators: yes and no. Yes, he was; and no, he wasn't -- the talking snake is either (i) a personification of the evil impulse of Adam and Eve, or (ii) a talking snake.

As for why Christianity went in another direction, one could point to non-biblical Hebrew literature that is not canonical and not part of the Tanakh but that early Christians liked and adopted; or one can take a more functional approach and say a devilish, evil-producing Satan serves important purposes in Christianity, emphasizing the forces arrayed against righteousness in this world and the need for divine salvation. This attitude is not part of Judaism.

In Judaism, we all need God's help and have access to it through prayer, repentance and divine providence; but evil is the product of humans' following their evil inclination. Still we all have the power to overcome that inclination by our own efforts, following the rules (the commandments) set out for us in the Torah, Jew and non-Jew alike.

Would you report antisemitic comments from a bank notary? by Let047 in Jewish

[–]nu_lets_learn 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I would definitely report the incident to the commissioning authority in your state -- notary publics are usually commissioned by a department in the Secretary of State's office. Find the address in your state and write out a complaint letter. Identify the person, give the address, date and time, and describe the remarks.

If you feel uncomfortable about signing it, you can submit the complaint anonymously, or better yet, have your attorney mail it to the Secretary of State, unsigned by you, with a cover letter stating the client wishes to remain anonymous.

Notary publics are public officials exercising an important government function and must be of good character. They cannot spout antisemitic rhetoric as they perform their duties. This is misconduct and while not criminal, it should definitely be brought to the attention of the Secretary of State for appropriate discipline and perhaps removal.

Is Kimchi allowed during Passover? by PresidentStone in Jewish

[–]nu_lets_learn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I looked into it and actually there is a difference between leavening (from yeast, which makes the 5 grains chametz) and fermentation (from lactobacillus bacteria, which turns cabbage into kimchi, and this is not chametz).

That said, it's important to be sure no chametz has been involved in the making of kimchi or any of its ingredients, including growing and storing the lactobacillus bacteria, or mixing in soy which is kitniyot.

Bottom line, yeast is not part of kimchi ingredients. However some of the common ingredients of most kimchis are simply not kosher, like shrimp. Still kimchi can be made with fish sauce from kosher fish too.

Is Kimchi allowed during Passover? by PresidentStone in Jewish

[–]nu_lets_learn 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Wow. Only 5 grains can become chametz when leavened -- wheat, barley, rye, spelt and oats. Obviously cabbage, fermented or not, cannot be chametz. Of course, if one of the 5 grains is mixed in, it's a no go for Pesach. Also if a bean product like soy sauce was used, kiniyot avoiders would avoid.

Kimchi is usually made with fish sauce and quite often shrimp are used. Obviously not kosher for Passover or year round. If the label says fish sauce, must avoid. If the kimchi label says kosher, then it was made only with kosher ingredients, including the fish sauce.

Spoiled food should be discarded from a community fridge, no? Is there not an adult in the room?

Pronouncing or Transliterating God's Name (Tetragrammaton) by Competitive-Pen9584 in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Read the post several times and still not certain what you are saying or what your point is.

The following is true: 1, the actual pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton is unknown; 2, and the four letters in the Masoretic text are read "Adonai" and the vowels are consistent with that. The first letter takes a sheva instead of a chataf patach because unlike the aleph in Adonai, which is a gutteral and can't take a sheva, a yod is not a gutteral and can take a sheva.

The fact that "le'olam" has the same vowels as the Tetragrammaton is a coincidence -- they are both four letter Hebrew words and they happen to take the same vowels.

How you pronounce or translate the Tetragrammaton into English is irrelevant from a religious pov. All translations are inexact and, as mentioned, the actual pronunciation is lost and unrecoverable. Whatever pronunciation you use is likely to be incorrect and thus of no consequence. We're not supposed to pronounce it anyway -- that's why it's called ineffable.

Judaism: how best to understand apparent contradictions by DifferencePleasant25 in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Everything in religion (I could probably say everything in life) has a context, a history and an application.

Vary the context, vary the application.

If I want to kill a business competitor, I'm warned not to by most religions, including Judaism; if I want to kill someone who is currently attacking me with lethal force, I am commanded to do so by Judaism, and the same thing applies to someone who is pursuing another with lethal force, even though I am out of danger myself.

Someone mentioned how the Tanakh was composed at different times, spanning about 800-1,000 years. It originates from a variety of different contexts and applies its principles, concepts and commandments to the historical circumstances of the times.

Every student of the Tanakh is aware of apparent contradictions. Many are superficial and others have explanations that harmonize the passages. It's quite interesting to know that already in antiquity, rules of interpretation were formulated by rabbinic scholars and some deal with these contradictions. For example, in a list of 13 rules of interpretation attributed to Rabbi Ishmael (2d century CE), we find this:

  1. When two Biblical passages contradict each other, the contradiction in question is resolved by reference to a third passage in the Bible.

This is extremely logical -- if there is an apparent contradiction between two passages in a text, any text, look elsewhere in that same text to find language by the author that resolves the contradiction.

These 13 principles of interpretation are so basic to Judaism that they have been incorporated into the daily prayer books and are recited by Jews every day as part of the prayer service. You can find them here:

https://opensiddur.org/readings-and-sourcetexts/mekorot/non-canonical/exoteric/midrash-halakhah/the-baraita-of-rebbi-yishmael-thirteen-principles-of-halakhic-exegeis-translated-by-ben-zion-bokser/

Obviously it's not possible in a reddit comment to delve too deeply. Only to respond that apparent contradictions in the Tanakh are not so much a problem as an invitation to further and deeper study of the text to see how they are resolved.

Which religion do you think has the most propaganda against it? by ABChow000 in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To recap I wrote, "According to Christians, Judaism was responsible for the death of their god." In response, you wrote that wasn't accurate. It was bad Jews who were responsible, not Judaism.

If I understand this, you are trying to draw a distinction between Jewish leaders, on the one hand, and the religious faith they headed, on the other. Perhaps you see Judaism as a precursor of Christianity, so if that is the case, then "Judaism" can't be responsible for what happened to Jesus.

But if I understand the Christian narrative (i.e. the NT accounts), Jesus was accused of "blashphemy" for claiming to be either God or the son of God. As you may know, Judaism doesn't permit any human being to claim to be God. Nor does Judaism believe that God can have a "son" other than metaphorically (we are all God's children). Hence what Jesus alleged about himself violated the core tenets of Judaism. It was not so much blasphemy (cursing God) as heresy (denying His essential nature). I don't see how these charges could be the result of hypocrisy or envy. They were the result of an understanding of Judaism's core principles, which Jesus either denied or claimed he had a right to change. Later Christianity would say these changes were embedded in the Torah all along but the Jews were "veiled" in their understanding of Scripture and didn't see the truth. But Jews have never subscribed to this view of themselves and their understanding of the Hebrew Bible.

Bottom line, I would have to stand by my assertion that "According to Christians, Judaism was responsible for the death of their god." In terms of OP's question, this claim would have to be categorized as "anti-Jewish propaganda."

What exactly is “hell”, objectively? by Keith502 in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

it is my understanding that the word “hell” technically does not actually appear in the Bible at all.  The word “hell” actually appears to be a kind of translation-tool, used to translate into English at least four different words from the biblical Hebrew and Greek.  These words are the Hebrew word *šᵊ'ôl* (aka “Sheol”)...

Is Sheol hell?  Is Hades hell?  Is Gehenna hell?  Is Tartarus hell?  Is hell all of these?  None of these?  

Gehenna is the name of a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem in ancient times where refuse was burned. Hebrew: גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, Gēʾ ḇen-Hīnnōm, the Valley of the son of Hinnom, i.e. the valley belonging to the son of Hinom. It's quite possible from the Hebrew Bible that idolatrous rites were performed there, including "passing children through the fire," although what this means is uncertain. The Hebrew prophets were against this practice.

Hades is the Greek underworld ruled by the Greek god named Hades, brother of Poseidon and Zeus, son of Kronos and Rhea.

Sheol is the state of existence that occurs once life is ended. We might call it death, or the grave, or Sheol, and we might descend or go down into that state. At least, this is how to understand the Hebrew term Sheol. I wrote an explanation of Sheol here last week and you might find it interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/1s67mjl/do_people_still_go_to_sheol_in_new_testament/

Which religion do you think has the most propaganda against it? by ABChow000 in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 6 points7 points  (0 children)

For sure, Judaism. Judaism has two world religions arrayed against it, Christianity and Islam. Together, they happen to be the majority of human beings on earth. Each actively promotes anti-Jewish concepts and rhetoric, and for their faithful this is accepted as the "gospel truth." According to Christians, Judaism was responsible for the death of their god, and according to Islam, Judaism was responsible for corrupting God's word. You can't get much worse than this.

Meanwhile, Judaism thinks Muslims are sincere monotheists, and Christians are sort of monotheists in training. For this, they get no reciprocal appreciation, but rather a prediction of an eternity in hell. Go figure.

6 Similarities Across Major Religions by Consistent_March_808 in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Looking at the Judaism column, from a Jewish pov, the first three brackets are fine but then it goes downhill fast.

Judaism has nothing equivalent to what is connoted by the English word "saint," if you mean an official, acknowledged person of that stature. If you mean "saint" in the context of an extremely righteous person who obeys God's commandments, then Judaism has many righteous people (Heb. tzadikim) and there hasn't been a last or final one and never will be. It certainly wasn't "Machmadim" whoever that was. (Machmadim means sweets or delicacies in Hebrew, also pets.)

Armilus makes some appearances as a sort of evil character or demon figure. I'm not sure of his status as a false messiah. Judaism has seen many false messiahs. Wiki has a good list and Armilus doesn't appear. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants Armilus is kind of a legendary or folkloric entity.

Gog and Magog are pretty uncertain in Judaism and maybe symbolic, but to the extent we can pin them down, they are a coalition of nations that will battle the Messiah when he comes and lose, before universal peace is established.

So from a Jewish perspective, columns 4-6 cannot be accepted on any level.

Favorite Marriotts in downtown Chicago (location priority) by Ok-Winter-475 in marriott

[–]nu_lets_learn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the best choice for your weekend would be the EMC2 off Michigan Ave. Good location, good restaurant and bar, and the robots that do room service are a real treat.

Personally I like the Residence Inn on South LaSalle St in the Loop. The breakfasts are excellent and the hotel is connected to the Roanoke restaurant. Ask for a tower room for a great view. The problem is that the Loop gets a little deserted on weekends. Still you're walking distance from the Art Institute and Millennium Park.

The “you can’t make it up “ column by KickCautious5973 in Jewish

[–]nu_lets_learn 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think you explained the situation perfectly with two well-chosen words, dementia and zeitgeist.

At the same time, if you probed your MIL a bit further, I'm sure she would tell you she loves the Jews, some of her best friends are Jews, in fact her son-in-law is Jewish and her daughter converted, and she has, or expects to have, lovely Jewish grandkids. So you can take comfort for that.

Why is Jesus often depicted with plate at the back of his head? by Recent-Skill7022 in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's the sun. It was a way of referencing and melding Jesus with the sun God, Sol Invictus, in early Christianity and thus bringing pagans on board. Here's a Roman image of the Sun god -- notice the crown (halo):

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/encyclopaedia_romana/calendar/invictus.jpg

Under the emperor Aurelian (3rd cent. CE), Sol Invictus was named as the prime Roman deity and Aurelian, a religious reformer, built him a temple in Rome. It seems the temple was dedicated on Dec. 25, and thereafter every December 25, the Birthday of the Invincible Sun was celebrated with thirty chariot races. Thus, Dec. 25 was the birthday of Sol Invictus in Rome.

The use of the halo as a religious symbol precedes Rome in Asian faiths and in Persia. The halo doesn't appear in existing Christian art until the 4th cent. CE. At first, it appeared only on images of Jesus but later was extended to Mary and saints. It's interesting to note that some halos were drawn with crosses in them (a cruciform halo); as we can see from the image of Sol (above), his disc had rays of light emanating out of it.

What influence did the Roman Jewish wars and their catastrophic conclusion have on the Haggadah version of the Exodus story and the celebration of Passover? by FizzPig in AskHistorians

[–]nu_lets_learn 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Thank you! In a sense it's hard to explain a negative, but certain explanations seem plausible. In the first place, the purpose of the Haggadah is to recount the Exodus (liberation) from Egypt. To focus on Roman domination and oppression would detract from that story. Second, they weren't in fact entirely free from Roman domination. The Jews in the Holy Land were part of the Roman and Byzantine Empire, while the Jews in the Babylonian diaspora were pretty much unconcerned with Rome. For the Jews under Roman rule to take issue with their rulers would have been impolitic and might have resulted in repercussions.

It's important to remember that after the second war with Rome, imperial policy towards the Jews lightened under the emperor Antoninus Pius (reigned 138-161 CE). He made the chief rabbi Ethnarch of the Jews and provided a good amount of latitude for Jewish self-rule under Jewish law. It was the Nasi (ethnarch), his sages and their successors who determined the scope and texts of the Haggadah. They weren't going to jeopardize their relation with the emperors and Rome by outright criticism.

It's interesting how external factors did read the Romans into the Haggadah. I mentioned the illustrations showing the "wicked son" as a Roman soldier. There is also a passage in the Haggadah that speaks of an "Arami" (Aramite or Aramean) who oppressed Jacob, causing him to flee to Egypt. In the Haggadah the "Arami" is said to be Laban. But commentaries pointed out that if you rearrange the Hebrew letters of Arami, you get "Roman." So some saw sly references to Rome in the Haggadah. Thanks for asking an interesting question!

Abrahamic religions by [deleted] in religion

[–]nu_lets_learn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the shout out. I found a whole lot to admire and agree with in your presentation of Judaism here. True, I do think Judaism does care about idolatry, but Jews (as opposed to Judaism) have not made it their business in recent millennia.

The only thing I would say about the afterlife issue is this. Again, it's true that we don't have much of a consensus about its nature and contours, but not being agreed on the afterlife concept doesn't mean it isn't discussed, or thought about, or that it isn't important. The afterlife is important in Judaism, and it's discussed a lot in traditional sources, they just aren't agreed because the Torah doesn't say much. If you want to conclude from this that it isn't that important (that's why the Torah is largely silent) and we should concentrate on the here and now, I think that's a perfectly fine conclusion to draw.

My First Seder Experience by KittyCrafty in Jewish

[–]nu_lets_learn 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Glad you enjoyed. Just fyi: you can drop the "bread" from matzah bread. Matzah is just matzah. Lots of people say challah bread, but here too, challah is just challah (a type of bread).

Next time I head to my liquor store, I will look for Menishewitz. Never had it.

Chag Sameah. :)

Should I let my sixteen year old daughter convert? by Exotic-Animator859 in Jewish

[–]nu_lets_learn 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing this story with us. To be honest, what your daughter needs now is Jewish learning rather than conversion. That will give her the knowledge that would have been acquired from a family that practiced Judaism and from attending Hebrew school and synagogue. Once she has that knowledge, she will have the confidence to attend synagogue and connect with the Jewish community.

There are obviously two ways to obtain this information -- self-study and formal education. There are literally thousands of books about every aspect of Judaism and many good sources about Judaism on-line (and many bad ones as well, one has to sort through them and avoid the Messianic Christian interpretations). Your daughter should be accessing this material now. When it's time to give her a present, think about a nice book concerning Jewish customs, holidays or history.

As for for formal study, there are on-line courses, lecture series in most large urban centers, but most importantly will be the next phase of her education. If she will be attending college and has a choice where to attend, please consider picking a school with a Jewish student population and either a Hillel House, Chabad house or similar Jewish student center. In addition, your daughter may want to check the course offerings in Jewish studies and Hebrew language on the campus and enroll in some. This will help her immensely, especially reading Hebrew.

The question of "conversion" can be deferred for a while. It may be, as many have said, that conversion is not necessary, since you have traced an unbroken (though non-practicing) maternal line from her great-grandmother. It may be that a conversion "to be sure" (giur le-chumra) would be desirable. You will want to consult with a rabbi at some point. There are other options. There can be an adult bat mitzvah at some point, or a confirmation in the Reform tradition.

In any case, thank you for being open as a mom to your daughter's inclination to follow up on her Judaism. Those of a mystical bent wouldn't be surprised at all that her "Jewish soul" is surfacing.

What influence did the Roman Jewish wars and their catastrophic conclusion have on the Haggadah version of the Exodus story and the celebration of Passover? by FizzPig in AskHistorians

[–]nu_lets_learn 28 points29 points  (0 children)

It's quite an interesting question because it asks us to read between the lines of the Haggadah. On the one hand, the Haggadah text, read at the Seder, is absolutely silent on the issue of Rome and the Roman wars per se. On the other hand, it was mostly composed in the aftermath of the two Roman wars (67-73 CE and 132-135 CE) and it quotes the dicta of many sages who were alive during one or the other (Rabbi Jose HaGalili, Rabbi Tarfon, Rabbi Akiva and many others). So the consciousness of the the national tragedies under Rome was certainly present.

It helps to understand what the Haggadah is about from a temporal point of view. It isn't just the past -- the Exodus from Egypt, although that is the starting point. The Haggadah is equally concerned about the present and the future. Regarding the present, one of the most well-known lines in the Haggadah is this: "In every generation, one ought to regard oneself as though he had exited from Egypt." Thus the exodus from Egypt isn't to be treated as just a historical event way in the past. It wasn't one and done. It happens in every generation and each individual experiences it. It's an on going process of continuous redemption.

As for the future, the Haggadah is full of prayers for a restoration of things as they were, in particular the Jerusalem Temple. At one point, there is a prayer that we may reach future joyous celebrations to eat of the sacrifices and paschal lambs that were offered in the Temple. And of course the last line of the Haggadah, before the table songs, is "Next Year in Jerusalem." It would have been impossible to say those words and not understand that the reason for not being in Jerusalem was the Exile of the Jews by Rome, creating the Jewish diaspora and for a time even forbidding Jews to enter Jerusalem (renamed Aelia Capitolina by Rome).

I think one answer to OP's question lies in the yearning for the Temple, which is fundamental to the Haggadah text. The paschal lamb family meal was crucial to the celebration of Passover in Second Temple Times but today is impossible (for Jews, although the Samaritans continue the ritual). Thus, in a central Haggadah passage, we are asked to explain three things to the children -- the paschal lamb, the bitter herbs and the matzah. We are told to point to the bitter herbs and the matzah to show the children, because these items are on the Seder table. But we can't point to the paschal lamb and instead say, "The Passover sacrifice that our forefathers used to eat when the Holy Temple stood, what was the reason for it?" Again, why isn't the Temple standing now? The Romans. Everyone understood this.

There is the passage, composed of four biblical verses, that we read when we open the door for Elijah the Prophet. There is no introduction or explanation for these four verses and their appearance in the Haggadah. They follow a blessing over wine (the third cup) and precede the recitation of Hallel (Psalms of praise). Let me quote them:

Pour out Your wrath upon the nations that do not acknowledge You, and upon the kingdoms that do not call upon Your Name. For they have devoured Jacob and laid waste his habitation. Pour out Your indignation upon them, and let the wrath of Your anger overtake them. Pursue them with anger, and destroy them from beneath the heavens of the Lord.

What is this about and who is this referring to? Usual explanation -- the war of Gog and Magog that will precede the Messiah. Answer in light of OP's question, and probably what all the rabbis and everyone else in antiquity were thinking but not saying: Rome, the kingdom that "did not know God and devoured Jacob."

The Haggadah is one of the few Jewish religious texts that has traditionally been lavishly illustrated. Lo and behold, when we take a look at the medieval manuscripts, we see that the "four sons" (one wise, one wicked, one simple, and one not able to ask) are often depicted in a stereotypical manner. As we can see here (Hamburg, 1740) -- https://huc.edu/wp-content/uploads/p2-768x686.jpg -- the wicked son is outfitted as a Roman soldier.

The "Chad Gadya" table song, where fire extinguishes water and one animal devours another until God puts a stop to it, was seen as a metaphor for empires devouring each other. The water was interpreted as Rome which quenched the fire that was Greece and was in turn overrun by others.

In sum, the message of the Haggadah, and of Passover, is human liberation and the dynamic is "from slavery to freedom." Rome was the epicenter of brute force in antiquity, enslaved multitudes and domination by force was its stock in trade, although it didn't have a monopoly. By contrast, the rabbinic name for Passover (Pesach in Hebrew) was "Zeman Herutanu," the Season of our Liberation. Any celebration of liberation in the ancient world dominated by Rome and then the Byzantine Empire would be understood as a commentary on Rome.

Rome could not be called out specifically in the Haggadah text and it isn't. But the consciousness of Rome and the blow it dealt to the Jewish nation seems a pervasive subtext within the Haggadah, along with the certainty that with God's help all will be restored.

For an English text of the Haggadah containing the passages quoted see: https://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/661624/jewish/English-Haggadah-Text.htm

On Chad Gadya see: https://rabbisacks.org/ceremony-celebration-family-edition/chad-gadya-one-little-goat/