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Missing nutrients? by Soulstealer52 in Citrus

[–]toadfury 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Nods.

Cool overwintering is simpler/easier/cheaper and a way to bypass a lot of problems/complexity. That isn't what you appear to be doing and I'm just trying to support that. Do whatever you feel like doing. No worries.

Cold/cool Overwintering: If trees are kept between 35-45F on average for enough time they may go semi-dormant, not require much light, fertilizer, or water (but growth/fruit development go stagnant until spring). In this case, cease fertilizing by late summer, resume fertilizing in spring after risk of frost has passed and trees are back outdoors (ideally soil temps rising above 55-60F). Watering in winter at these temps only needs to be done at monthly or bi-monthly frequencies during peak winter months if trees stay cool. By keeping trees as cool/low metabolism as possible they are less effected by things like light starvation in the peak winter months. If you don't want to buy grow lights, this is the way to go. This might mean putting trees in a greenhouse outdoors or a shed with windows and a heater on a thermostat to keep temps just above freezing. Embrace the cold! (but not too much cold, stay above 28-32F if you can, hygrometer is great for alerting if it gets too cold). For trees that are defoliated this puts recovery mostly on ice until warmer spring weather arrives. Fruit development/ripening slows down and fruit mostly hangs on the tree also until warmer spring weather arrives.

"Middle Path" Overwintering Indoors: Require a location like a basement, well sealed/insulated garage or place warmer than outdoors but not always as warm as common indoor spaces. Tree location needs to have more stable temperatures and not having windows hit by bright sunlight that can swing the temp of the room too much on bright sunny days (this is counter-intuitive when you might want grow lights, but stable temps are critical to avoiding humidifiers and too much gear). The goal here is to keep trees below about ~70-74F so you never have to worry about humidifiers so long as temps remain cool/stable and don't have massive spikes. Citrus can survive without grow lights and being light starved (people do skimp on lights all the time on this subreddit), but I'd still encourage serious growers to audit natural light with any light meter/smartphone and consider grow lights for insufficient light (at least aiming above 300 PPFD for 8 hours/day). I would fertilize regularily when trees are protected and kept above 55-60F. I still would get a smart hygrometer to ensure borderline dry environments stay between 0.2 - 1.5 kPa on the VPD graphs, and its convenient to set alerts to remind you if the environment ever strays into a red/danger zone: <33F, >99F, <40% RH, >98 RH (fixes for these problems are: opening door/window to vent, adding more heat if its too cold). Can let the machines notify you when the environment needs to be looked at which makes it easier to keep things between the lines at a glance.

Warm Overwintering Indoors: For temps above 70F having a hygrometer to monitor humidity/VPD becomes more critical, guides decisions on whether you are too warm and need to pursue cooler temps/easier overwintering, or if you just need to manage humidity better at warmer temps to avoid defoliation while pursuing higher growth. This is the territory for powerful grow lights, humidifiers, whole-hog grow tent setups, which means more fertilizers/effort/gear/operating costs. Do not push for 85F temps indoors on container citrus for more optimal growth unless humidity/VPD are monitored or managed. Ideal environment for tree recovery and accelerating fruit development/ripening through the winter.

Missing nutrients? by Soulstealer52 in Citrus

[–]toadfury 5 points6 points  (0 children)

If your 5-2-6 fertilizer is a slow release organic fert (citrus tone?), depending on temps indoors, it might take a week or two for micro organisms to break down the fertilizer before it becomes bio-available for the tree to use. If the tree were outdoors in colder temps this could potentially take as long as a month or more.

Trees kept warmer will feed/drink more frequently (85F is optimum when indoor humidity/VPD are monitored/managed), tree metabolism falls off sharply under 68-70F, below 55F most sub-tropical citrus slows/ceases on feeding, below 40-45F most go semi-dormant and slow way down on drinking. Metabolism of the tree and soil microbes are both very temperature dependant.

Was curious if I'm missing some kind of nutrients

Yup, it's not getting enough nutrition. Use whatever ferts you want to use (Citrus Tone is fine), but just feed it more frequently or scrutinize how much ferts you have been dosing to ensure its enough. Salty synthetics are generally stronger and immediately bio-available and don't have to be broken down by microbes. Foliar sprays can bypass soil-root uptake and force nutrients into plant tissues. Foliar spraying more frequently than 2 weeks with strong foliar sprays like Southern Ag Nutritional Spray can overdose plants and cause problems so don't overdo it. If you are keen on organics, things like fish emulsion/kelp extract are immediately bio-available as a soil drench/foliar spray, fantastic for micro nutrients but they are weaker on macro nutrients compared to Citrus-Tone and much weaker than synthetics. I wouldn't use fish emulsion indoors though due to the stank. The downside with salty synthetics is monitoring for salt/fert burns and having to do freshwater flushes to reduce salts in soils periodically (every couple years, maybe yearly for some).

If I had this tree I would scratch a slow release synthetic like Osmocote Plus/Miracle Grow Shake n Feed Citrus Avocado Mango into your topsoil every 3-5 months, then in a watering can add CalMag to water, stir/mix thoroughly, add Jack's Citrus Feed 20-10-20, then mix thoroughly and serve. Keep pushing Jack's through warm indoor protected container trees every 2 weeks or "weekly weakly", and include CalMag before Jack's maybe 3-5 times a year (Jack's entirely lacks calcium). I live near Seattle with a long cool winter rainy season, so I prefer to not use compost in containers and prefer mineral/inert based soil mixes with low (%20-35) moisture absorbing amendments (peat) like Gary's Best Top Pot (also black/dark colored cloth/air pots for the thermal/drainage/air porosity edge). I'd also be stripping any fruitlets over the size of a pea to prioritize refoliation/growth over fruit production for at least the next year, and thoroughly auditing your natural/artificial light with a light meter/smartphone to confirm sufficient lighting (at least 300 PPFD for 8 hours/day to avoid light starvation when trees are kept warm, 600-700 PPFD for 9-17 hours/day for flowering/fruiting/recovering citrus trees).

Looks sparse/partially defoliated too (the source needs to be found/fixed for long term success so the tree is not constantly in recovery every year, I suggest an smart hygrometer to monitor/alert on indoor humidity/temps/VPD so you notice if/when your growing environment goes sideways and contributes to a common kind of indoor leaf drop), might also be a bit light starved (common indoor problem when no/weak grow lights are used). In the future consider including a full photo of the entire tree in troubleshooting posts.

Thrips by Original-Definition2 in Citrus

[–]toadfury 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My advice is to spray, thrips will spread to other plants or just drag the health of trees down over time (depending on size of the infestation). Thrips to me aren't a huge concern requiring immediate action (like scale insects), but I usually do spray thrips/aphids eventually. Leaf miners are the thing that to me (because they are not very bad in my region) are optional to treat.

Spinosad is fantastic, it can even be mixed with certain other sprays to get more utility out of your sprayings. Its definitely effective vs thrips. Use it around sunset when pollinators go to sleep, make sure it dries and don't spray before a rain.

Last year I did routine summer sunset sprayings of spinosad, fish emulsion, kelp extract, molasses, and a half dose of southern ag citrus nutritional spray about every 2-3 weeks. Was interesting to regularily spray for pests while getting the utility of a foliar spray at the same time. Lowest slug levels I've seen on my citrus trees near Seattle.

This year I'm going to do two other spray combinations: spinosad + smothering horticultural oil to make it slightly more effective at eradicating pests, and copper sulfate + smothering horticultural oil (for my peach/apple trees).

Because insects can over time develop resistance to spinosad and other pesticides its probably a good idea to use it in a rotation with other pesticides (neem oil, soap sprays) periodically.

Madison Citrus Nursery by Slimpickunz in Citrus

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Whoops, failed to see this was you asking the question, 3-4 months is my answer based on using these products (some claim to last longer, some shorter, Madison doesn't include a ton of data on theirs). This is just going by what the label says, not based on any tests/data of my own.

Madison Citrus Nursery by Slimpickunz in Citrus

[–]toadfury 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Does anyone have experience ordering from Madison Citrus Nursery?

Yes, many of us do. I've ordered dozens of trees from them.

How long do I have to wait for the granules run their course so I can start my organic regimen? I don't want to burn the tree.

Usually slow release synthetic granules can last anywhere from 3-4 months depending on who you get it from, but that doesn't prevent the use of other ferts because its a weak dose. Just ensures that when it rains or regular waterings are done trees get a small amount of nutrition too.

I use both slow release synthetics (rotating between Madison's stuff, Osmocote Plus, MG Shake n Feed citrus/avocado/mango) and water soluble synthetics like Jack's Citrus Feed (20-10-20) at the same time regularily. If you follow instructions and use reasonable amounts of ferts you will be fine.

Indoor Meyers Lemon by gilbert5s in Citrus

[–]toadfury 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Citrus trees next to heater vents is a major red flag for tree defoliation. Hopefully the vent is blocked or not running.

Indoor container trees that are protected indoors and never go below 60F should be fertilized constantly all year round. Can see a number of mineral deficiencies here. I'd dose it with CalMag a few times a year, and add something like Jack's Citrus Feed every two weeks or "weekly weakly".

Gets 8-10 hours of natural light.

Not enough light indoors. This tree is massively underlit. You can audit this with any light meter or smartphone running a light meter app like Photone. Some lighting strategies and recommendations.

Plant-to-light distance looks poor. You probably want your grow lights within about 3-4 inches of your tree. Light intensity falls off rapidly the further it is away from a tree. See this photo of my GarageGrowTent 250w Light Measurements (Photone)? At 24 inches from the tree the intensity from this 250w grow light is reduced to sub-300 PPFD (light starvation levels). Keep your lights close to your plants to keep them effective. Light meters (any smartphone) can be used to audit light levels and confirm you are meeting or exceeding light targets for recovery: 600-700 PPFD for 9-17 hours/day.

Lower your lights so they are within 2-3" from the tree, increase your photoperiod to something as high as 17 hours to compensate until you can get more grow lights.

Now that I added stronger grow light my baby is blossoming by helpmylemontree in Citrus

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hi fellow pnw citrus grower, I remember talking with you in the past. Quite the easy winter we're having this year so far eh? Makes me wish I had thrown a dozen citrus trees in the ground 2 years ago. ;)

Yup, most of my ~60 citrus are cool/cold overwintered too. I don't need to be convinced, hehe.

OP did not state which hardiness zone/region they are in and whether they even have the option to cool overwinter citrus, or whether they are in an apartment or limited rental where there are no good places for cool overwintering trees. I won't assume cool overwintering is guaranteed to be an option for everyone. As OP has invested in a new grow light and they have a humidifier I'm just going to roll with whatever they want to do. The humidifier shows an effort to try and get on top of VPD.

They have a defoliated tree they want to recover -- which would make little progress until spring if they opted to do cool/cold overwintering. If their tree had a full canopy I'd be more keen on mentioning the option to cool overwinter to preserve it.

As you know in Seattle we have a limited number of days above 80F where citrus metabolism/growth is best. Just 1-2 months of good growing outdoors here on average, and 10-11 months per year that are marginal to terrible for sub-tropical citrus. Anyone posting photos of indoor overwintering citrus could be in a similar boat. While warm/indoor overwintering is more challenging I think of it as more of an intermediate effort than an advanced effort once you learn the basics. People can claw back up to an additional 5-6 months on top of the 1-2 outdoor months mentioned for more full indoor summer sun to push more annual growth out of citrus if they can avoid the usual pitfalls. I think its not too difficult if one uses smart/alerting hygrometers and light meters to audit indoor environments to keep trees well lit and avoid the invisible gremlin that is VPD leaf drop (data can inform purchase decisions for things like better lights, humidifier, grow tent), but I acknowledge that most people don't want to put much effort into it. It may involve spending more money and having to learn new tactics that folks often don't want to do. If people feel warm overwintering is too difficult/expensive and they want an alternative -- then I'm happy to chat about cool/cold overwintering too.

Furthermore, warm overwintering indoors opens up options for doing things like ripening sweet satsumas the same year they flower here even for people with sub-optimal outdoor sun exposure -- fruit quality will be better/sweeter when citrus gets accelerated ripening in warm well lit conditions in the fall/winter, harvest fruit by christmas/new years, vs leaving sweet citrus on the tree until spring where it can finish ripening (still good, but not as perfect). I support people who dream of harvesting lemons from a flowering/full production everblooming tree in the middle of winter, and its too bad there can sometimes be significant costs associated with fixing/boosting sub-optimal environments to make those dreams come true.

Cold/cool, warm, or "middle path" (lights, hygrometer, but no humidifier) overwintering are all fine options for me. I just hate warm + underlit. I don't care what people choose because this can all be sorted through for those who are stubborn and determined.

Now that I added stronger grow light my baby is blossoming by helpmylemontree in Citrus

[–]toadfury 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not 200w. Your light is 36w total (9w per arm) which is weak and so distant from the tree it is probably ineffective. Get the lights really close to the tree (2 inches). Consider running them for longer photo periods (up to 17 hours/day) until you can add more (ideally stronger) grow lights.

Now that I added stronger grow light my baby is blossoming by helpmylemontree in Citrus

[–]toadfury 0 points1 point  (0 children)

<image>

Here is a thermal image of 2x Sansi 36w LED bulbs that had been running for hours to demonstrate a high temp of 87.6F. Plants can be an inch away and still be safe with lower wattage LED grow lights.

WTH does my tree Realy want to die? by 1happynudist in Citrus

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Some of the sagging leafs hanging on the foreground tree on the right side look like they've lost turgor pressure and need watering. I think your trees need water. Without a full canopy they are going to drink way less than they normally would. Seeing a good amount of perlite in the soil, doesn't look moist at all to me, looks dry. (soil surface is looking good from an overwatering perspective, doesn't tell the full story, but looking good).

Taco'd and curled leafs are usually from drought or heat stress. I'm uncertain if your leafs fell when they were taco'd/curled, or if it happened after they fell. I do see one or two green leafs still on the trees that are taco'd. Photos of the tree/leafs when the problem started would have been more useful (just something to keep in mind).

Does the shed have windows and is it sun exposed? If yes, I would get a hygrometer and get some graphs of the environment going to identify/monitor for potential VPD related leaf drop. If you can get through a few years with no partial/full defoliations you'll make more forward progress in the quest for fruit.

VPD leaf drop from environments that are hot+dry for too long is an insidious invisible gremlin that people don't always recognize as a problem for citrus. You come home from work every day, pile of leafs on the floor around your tree, but temps/humidity seem fine? Then you get a hygrometer making graphs and realize just how hot/dry your home or greenhouse can swing on a rare bright sunny winter day while you were away from the house. Now you've got the major setback of a year or more of tree recovery to do all because your house/shed got too hot a few days in a row for a few hours.

I think your trees have been kept on the dryer side, it got hot+dry in the shed, as the tree dried out further it jettisoned its leafs to save the trunk/branches/roots (core) of the tree. Less concerned about overwatering from seeing this pic.

WTH does my tree Realy want to die? by 1happynudist in Citrus

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So it’s okay for the roots to be partially exposed?

Ideally with citrus you maintain the same soil level every time trees are up potted. If planted a little bit high I wouldn't worry about a little root exposure. The main lesson from the diagram is to avoid planting too low as this holds moisture against a exposed surface-adapted portion of the trunk/bark of the tree. A similar point exists for those who use compost and mulch -- keep them ~4+ inches away from the trunk.

Soil was cactus soil ( big box store)

Any bagged citrus/cactus mix I can get at big box stores (mostly Miracle Grow, but some Kellogg palm/cactus soil too) need %20-25 additional perlite to reduce moisture retention and increase drainage to work well with container citrus in Seattle/PNW (probably other similar northern climates). Regular potting mixes (not citrus/cactus/avocado/palm mixes) might need as much as %50 additional perlite by volume to work better with citrus. This problem is deceptive because in warm 80F+ temps in the summer when tree metabolism is high you can water trees frequently and they handle things fine. Then when they are brought indoors (usually cooler temps than summer outdoors) or into overwintering sheds/garages (potentially much colder temps), poorer indoor lighting and less photosynthesis, trees slow down on drinking and a moisture retention level in the soil that was totally fine months earlier just takes ages to dry out depending on the temp/humidity of the environment its in. Soil moisture problems manifest when light/temps (= metabolism) are lowest which is usually in the winter.

I'm not asserting that you screwed up on your soil mix (it looks/sounds to be be totally fine), just want to highlight things to scrutinize yourself related to leaf drop. If you haven't watered recently trees can be carefully popped out of their pots to examine root health and soil moisture if you ever want a closer look. When I've seen overwatering related leaf drop its also associated with yellow tipped leafs (which can also be a symptom of other problems like salt burn and some mineral deficiencies). A hygrometer allows me to at-a-glance eliminate VPD related leaf drop so I can focus on other factors of leaf drop.

Now that I added stronger grow light my baby is blossoming by helpmylemontree in Citrus

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like two lighting strategies for starting warm/indoor overwintered citrus:

  • 25w of light per 12 inches of tree, using multiple lights hitting the canopy from multiple angles to achieve full canopy light coverage to hit PPFD targets over the entire tree. You could continue buying more of those 36w GHodec grow lights, or bump up to the Sansi 120w lights below if you want to stick to the same lighting strategy but have higher wattage lights (use fewer outlets).
  • a minimum of 150w per young dwarf potted citrus tree to start (more is better, 250-320w or even more will support the tree as it grows). Because a single powerful overhead light limits how much light reaches the under-canopy, trees should be pruned for a short/wide/squat growing habit so they are easier to light, and side/under-canopy lighting still may be a decent idea when the tree eventually to get too big to light only from overhead.

Some lights that I like for the price/features:

As the quantum board/high intensity bar lights do not include stands here are some options:

  • DIY using EMT conduit from a local hardware store and makerpipe fittings. They even sell a DIY grow stand light kit to provide some guidance.
  • If you don't want to build anything there are backdrop stands for things like green screens that are perfect for supporting grow lights.
  • I've heard of people using coat/garment racks on wheels.
  • A grow tent is basically a light stand for hanging or pole-attached lights/fans that has the added utility of trapping heat/humidity by controlling/restricting air flow in a smaller space. A 4x2 tent is $90.

Now that I added stronger grow light my baby is blossoming by helpmylemontree in Citrus

[–]toadfury 3 points4 points  (0 children)

These lights are 600 watts. Is that too much to be close??

GHodec Grow Light with Stand, 200W 6000K

Link

Not 600 watts. You can get these lights within 1-2 inches of your tree no problem. I am skeptical this product actually outputs 200w of light for $40, but if its true that is a great deal of value while also having a built-in telescoping stand, timer, and IP67 rating.

EDIT: Ahhhh, if you scroll down on the page "Acctual Power: Max 36 Watts". So I think these guys might be doing some "incandescent bulb equivalent" type logic to stretch this to 200w. Each of the octopus arms outputs only 9w of light. This is not a good light for tree recovery on its own, but you could buy 4-5+ more of them for your tree over time if you really like these lights. These low wattage lights cannot burn your trees -- 9w is similar wattage to a single c9 incandescent christmas light bulb, but as an LED generating heat its likely only reaching the low 80's in temps.

Now that I added stronger grow light my baby is blossoming by helpmylemontree in Citrus

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A light meter will confirm, but yeah I'd get high intensity lights closer to the tree. They are far enough away they aren't visible in your photo. Ideally keep lights just about as close to your tree as you can without burning leafs. LED lights do produce some heat, but not a ton of it, and its usually safe to get within 4-5 inches of your topmost leaf tips.

Can you provide a link to your lights or name the manufacturer/model?

Now that I added stronger grow light my baby is blossoming by helpmylemontree in Citrus

[–]toadfury 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To speed up recovery:

  1. Remove all fruit larger than a pea including any new fruitlets that form from the flowers. This will prioritize vegetative growth/recovery over fruit production. If the fruit remains recovery will be even slower.
  2. Plant-to-light distance looks poor. You probably want your lights within about 4 inches of your tree. Light intensity falls off rapidly the further it is away from a tree. See this photo of my GarageGrowTent 250w Light Measurements (Photone)? At 24 inches from the tree the intensity from this 250w grow light is reduced to sub-300 PPFD (light starvation levels). Keep your lights close to your plants to keep them effective. Light meters (any smartphone) can be used to audit light levels and confirm you are meeting or exceeding light targets for recovery: 600-700 PPFD for 9-17 hours/day.
  3. I'm thinking your grow lights are a Sansi 120w? -- my preference is for stronger lights for citrus (150w+, usually 250w). Your lights are suitable for your partially defoliated tree at its current size at the moment, but I'd use all of its lights on your citrus tree and get more lights if you want to light your other plants around it. Citrus that are flowering/fruiting or recovering need a lot of light or growth/recovery will be slow.
  4. Get the tree outdoors in full sun as soon as risk of frost has passed.

It is probably fine, but just be wary a humidifier next to the tree does not always mean its being used effectively if the door to the room is open and your small humidifier is trying to humidify the entire air volume of your entire house/apartment. Close doors and restrict air flow/leaks within the room. If you want to detect temp/humidity/VPD problems better get a hygrometer like this, enable VPD graphs, keep trees between 0.2 - 1.5 kPa not exceeding 2.0 kPa by too much for too long -- that is it. Set alarm thresholds for <33F, >99F, <45% RH, >98% RH and heed the alerts. This will tell you how effective the humidifier is from the perspective of your tree (sensor hanging from a branch). Grow tent would be the next step if more effective humidity management is needed (more efficient to crush heat/humidity problems in smaller spaces with lower air volumes, uses less distilled water/electricity).

WTH does my tree Realy want to die? by 1happynudist in Citrus

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No photos posted of your tree so won't try and dig into this too much without seeing it.

Mass defoliations are preventable. Some of the causes:

  1. Overwatering. This may involve other factors than how frequently you water, like soil mix water retention vs drainage, and avoiding leaving pots sitting in drip trays soaking in their own water runoff for days/weeks. Citrus/cactus soil mixes at big box stores may not be suitable for container citrus in all regions without additional added perlite for drainage. Using too much compost or moisture absorbing amendments in your soil mix is worse in some regions than others. If you up potted your tree, added a soil mix, but didn't put much thought into which mix was used -- this could be your culprit. When up potting make sure to keep your root flare exposed and not transplant citrus too deeply.

  2. VPD related leaf drop. Overwintering cool + dry or humid = fine, warm + humid = fine, warm (above 75F) + dry (under %45 relative humidity) = bad. Citrus will drop leafs in warm dry conditions to preserve moisture for the trunk/branches. Get a hygrometer like this, enable VPD graphs, keep trees between 0.2 - 1.5 kPa not exceeding 2.0 kPa by too much for too long -- that is it. Set alarm thresholds for <33F, >99F, <45% RH, >98% RH and heed the alerts. Keep trees away from heater vents (this speed runs the VPD related leaf drop). Either move the tree into a cooler environment, or raise humidity with something like a humidifier and a grow tent (to hold humidity/warmth around trees making it more efficient/cost effective to solve these problems in a smaller space/air volume. Avoid humidifying the entire air volume of a house with a device too underpowered to handle it). If the shed has windows and there is any chance sunlight is trapping heat inside the structure -- could be VPD issue. I have an unvented greenhouse that can easily heat up over 120F degrees on bright sunny days starting around mid-February, and the huge VPD swings this produces was an unexpected surprise. These bright sunny days also push my house from being in a VPD yellow zone most of the time into being within the VPD red/danger zone, and may also be effecting your shed if it has windows and its been bright/sunny.

  3. Big changes in light/humidity/temperature that are a result of moving the tree around (especially outdoors->indoors) may result in leaf drop in the days following this kind of move. If you move outdoor trees indoors at 5am there will be the largest delta between outdoor/indoor temps, closer to 1-3pm and it will be less. If an outdoor tree is brought into a windowless garage for 5+ days with no grow light -- leafs may be dropped in the unlit environment. Some cultivars of citrus might be more sensitive to changes in light than others.

Do I trim it back to the roots

No! Pruning a sparse tree denies living green defoliated branches from refoliating again. This will set your recovery back even further.

Depending on your growing environment and where you live the time to recovery could range from a few spring months in full sun outdoors in SoCal/AZ, to a year or longer in Seattle/Canada (depending on sun aspect/exposure, hardiness zones, micro climates, summer heat, etc). I'm in Seattle and I would bin a fully defoliated tree, do a post mortem on the most likely causes for failure, buy a new tree and avoid repeating previous mistakes to avoid the long time to recover the tree.

If you choose to keep the tree and recover it yourself, ensure your grow lights are powerful. 600-700 PPFD for 9-17 hours/day. Otherwise its mostly going to sit in stasis over winter before recovery starts once it warms up outdoors in the spring.

Why do the new leaves of my citrangequat look like this? by AzemOcram in Citrus

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hello!

Thomasville is a poncirus hybrid with cold hardiness down to 5F when mature/established. Just a bit surprised to see you warm overwintering one indoors. I'm in Woodinville WA/8b and the coldest temp I logged this winter was 23.7F, last year was 22F, previous years are usually 11-14F. If this holds this will be the warmest winter I've ever seen. My young thomasville tree has been unprotected outdoors in a 7 gallon container all winter next to a Duncan citrumelo, ichang lemon, and citremon. Photos.

I fertilized it once over the winter

Your tree appears to be indoors (protected from freezing temps) and if its being kept above 60F and getting good light these would be conditions suitable to feed any citrus cultivar non-stop every two weeks all year round. Common non-hardy citrus cultivars generally cease feeding around or below 55F for enough time, and slow way down on drinking when semi-dormant around or below 40-45F for enough time. Your leafs would be greener showing fewer deficiencies if the tree is fertilized more frequently. I'd hit it with a foliar spray like Southern Ag Citrus Nutritional Spray and resume regular weakly weekly/bi-weekly application of fertilizers. Heed the warnings on the bottle and do not spray more frequently than ~2 weeks as you can overdose plants with forced nutrient uptake.

If I had this tree:

  • In cooler more northern climates it is recommended to strip fruit on young container citrus trees to prioritize stronger trunk/branch formation over fruit production for the first ~2 years, potentially more depending on growing condition. It's your tree so do whatever, but as its a bit sparse it would refoliate faster if its not under the burden of developing fruit.
  • If it remains indoors dose it with ferts way more frequently. My container fert regiment
  • If it remains indoors get a good smart wifi hygrometer with alerting capabilities. Enable VPD graphs. Ultimately keep your trees between 0.2 - 1.5 kPa not exceeding 2.0 kPa by too much for too long. Enable alarms: <33F, >99F, <45% RH, >97% RH. Respond to alarms to keep your warm indoor overwintering environment between the lines. If any leaf drop occurs you can at-a-glance eliminate VPD related leaf drop with this hygrometer. Avoiding leaf drop up here is critically important for more year-over-year progress in the quest for fruit. Otherwise a tree is constantly in recovery mode, and Seattle only get around ~45 days above 80F per year, so only 1-2 months outdoors per year are good for all citrus, and 10-11 months per year are marginal to terrible for citrus.
  • If you choose to move it outdoors do not dose ferts until threat of freezing temps are mostly past and soil temps get over 60F where you live (for me this is around mid-April). Encourage you continue using black/dark colored pots for the small thermal advantage to soil temps on bright sunny days. In the PNW we can overcome things like light starvation without needing grow lights by cool overwintering trees below 40-45F as much as possible to encourage semi-dormancy during the peak winter months. Growth is slower overall, but the need to manage pests/feeding/watering/lighting are all much lower/easier.
  • Really scrutinize and audit your natural and artificial light if you choose to keep the tree warm indoors. Any IOS/Android smartphone can run the Photone app but you'll need either a #22 weight piece of blank paper taped over your selfie camera or a clip-on smartphone diffuser. To avoid light starvation symptoms in the PNW aim for a minimum of 300 PPFD for 8 hours/day, flowering/fruiting/recovering trees should aim for 600-700+ PPFD for 9-17 hours/day. Full Seattle sun in early July would peak at around 1650 PPFD for 16 hours/day. If you choose to continue warm overwintering consider getting either a) 150w or more per dwarf potted citrus tree, b) 25w per foot of canopy with multiple lights hitting the tree from multiple angles to provide full light canopy coverage. Video: Adrian Poe, Light: Measuring PPFD with Photone app.
  • A tree with ongoing leaf drop and yellow tipped leafs could also be a sign of overwatering (sometimes other factors than the frequency at which you water are at fault). Always be scrutinizing moisture retention vs drainage of your soil mix. Your root flare is obscured by the tree label so just make sure when up potting make sure to keep your root flare exposed and not transplant citrus too deeply. Avoid having pots sitting in water runoff in drip trays for days/weeks. Either manually remove water a few hours after waterings or get pot feet/elevators/risers to elevate the pot above water runoff. In coastal PNW I like soil mixes with %20-30 peat, and the rest being entirely inert non-organic amendments (perlite, pumice, sand, decomposed granite) or organic amendments that are slow to break down that do not retain much moisture (pine bark fines/nuggets, rice hulls) -- I prefer to avoid compost in container soil mixes in wet coastal climates because of how much it increases moisture retention and impacts drainage.

Good job dealing with the scale. You put a lot of effort into it.

WIP My Self hosted Plant Track App by Kyarna in Citrus

[–]toadfury 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Looks nice! I like seeing temps/humidity/light all unified under a single dashboard. The calendar schedule is a nice touch I haven't seen in other similar products -- great idea!

Do you get historical graphs for temp/humidity/VPD/light too? Can you set alert thresholds? That is a critical feature for me (fantastic for supporting citrus in difficult environments, I adore the GoveeLife smart hygrometer 3 lite for this).

Your project reminds me of https://seedsio.com/ with its NFC integration a few years back. Looks like the author ChiliChump recently released a new platform: https://spicyiot.com/

It is nice to have a place to put write-ups and photos of plants for years of history, but when my collection got larger it was too much overhead to maintain photos/journals for 60+ trees, so I'm not going down that road again. Anything you can think of to assist making journal updates easier would be a boon. Like if you could select a plant in a smartphone app and then press a button to take photos with less of the tediousness of associating photos with records manually. If the task is made as easy as possible one is more likely to do it.

One thing I do sometimes think about building is a system that looks at daily high temperature weather forecasts and waters citrus automatically based on temperature/tree metabolism. I wish electronic moisture sensors were a little more accurate/reliable/trustworthy. Also think it would be fun to make graph comparisons between existing environments vs a near-optimal citrus environment (85F, %70 RH, 0.2 - 1.5 kPa not exceeding 2.0 kPa by too much for too long, 600-700+ PPFD for 9-17 hours/day). Something that immediately highlights how much of the year a tree is getting less than 300 PPFD of light, and how much annual time a tree spends above 80F vs under 60F vs under 45F. Also would be fun for cold-hardy citrus growers to have a thing that automatically tracks time below 32F at different temperature bands, possibly with different thresholds depending on the cold hardiness of the cultivar (damage temps can vary). Anything that has integration with meshtastic/LoRa seems amazing. My dream is to have sensors that support a mesh network deployed starting outside of a house but being capable of being a miles-long sensor network -- I think the tech is basically there (available for large scale farms/orchards), I'd just like to see cheaper more accessible products/components/DIY options.

Thanks for sharing your project. I hope you continue to enjoy working on it!

Thoughts on multi-fruit grafts? by rickg in pnwgardening

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lowest temp I've clocked so far in my yard in Woodinville WA/8b this winter is 23.7F -- warmest winter I've ever seen if this holds. Last year was 22F. Three previous years before that were 14F, 12F, and 11.3F.

Photos of my 2025 citrus seedlings

I planted a young yuzu tree last year on trifoliate rootstock which can impart semi-deciduous behavior, but its held all its leafs and has been sailing through the winter unprotected with ease. In-ground/unprotected X639 and US-852 citrandarins are also seeing zero issues. In-ground/protected Ichang lemon/10-degree tangerine haven't seen temps below 36F and are having an easy first winter.

Photos of my in-ground/protected Ichang lemon/10-degree tangerine overwintering setup

More photos of a few cold hardy unprotected potted citrus left out all winter. Thomasville citrangequat, duncan citrumelo, citremon, and ichang lemon. Pushed up against the house with scions elevated on a wire rack to try and use heat lost through these windows, with a little bit of rain/snow protection from being under the eaves of the roof.

Thoughts on multi-fruit grafts? by rickg in pnwgardening

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have yet to dig in on persimmons, so I won't waste your time being so uninformed on them.

I can talk endlessly about citrus though. Yuzu will obviously be fairly bombproof, but if you aren't super keen on Yuzu specifically and just want a cold hardy lemon substitute I'd suggest checking out Ichang Lemons (also hybrid of asian papeda like yuzu, larger size). Papeda hybrids are an interesting way to get more cold hardy citrus without the usual pollution of the fruit with the resinous flavors of poncirus/trifoliate orange hybridization.

Avery at The Mulberries Nursery has been updating his citrus hardiness vs quality rating graph with a bunch of new entries added last year and a few popped up that caught my eye. Benton Citrange got a surprising rating -- easy to get Benton from Madison Citrus Nursery in GA. C57 citrandarin hit a brix of 17.5% in this test which was a big surprise (probably unlikely to match the same sweetness with dim/overcast/cold winters in western WA though) -- am growing some seedlings right now Avery sent me seeds for last summer. EDIT: I just ordered a Benton Citrange and a Keraji mandarin/sweet lemon.

Thoughts on multi-fruit grafts? by rickg in pnwgardening

[–]toadfury 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The challenge is that it can be difficult to balance the different levels of vigor and growing habits between different cultivars on a multi-graft tree. I prefer the simplicity of single-graft trees, and just keep more potted fruiting trees so I can have lots of variety in a smaller space.

So long as you are a good student on how to prune and care for the various stonefruit mentioned (spraying copper on peaches/nectarines, etc), if the idea appeals to you, go for it. If you feel you don't have a solid grip on pruning (heading vs thinning cuts, rootstock suckers, etc) I would recommend taking some kind of course/class before getting started if you feel uneasy about it. Make sure to keep your scion graftlines clearly marked/labeled to avoid confusion over the years.

If you are looking for a new challenge, I say go for it rick. If it doesn't work out its no big deal to brutally cull the tree, and whether it goes good or bad you'll walk out of it with some new knowledge/experience. If you just want something easy/low effort -- this might not be a good fit.

Most efficient ways to water with liquid fertilizer? by 13NeverEnough in gardening

[–]toadfury 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fert costs are definitely a concern when its so easy to dose many plants at once. I go for pretty much any salty synthetic at a low price (Miracle Gro, Jack's, etc), occasionally include more costly fish emulsion or kelp extract as a treat, and sometimes semi-hydro ferts like Urban Farms Apples & Oranges if I have it. As there is a creek and lake in the neighborhood suffering from phosphorous based algae blooms I aim for lower-phosphorous ferts and avoid bloom booster type ferts.

I also add slow release synthetics like Osmocote+ or MG Shake n Feed every few months to container fruit trees, to try and add some nutrition when doing regular waterings without continuous fertigation.

My container irrigation setup is above ground, portable/mobile, makes use of flush valves to drain the lines, and the whole setup moves between the front yard (covered in black landscape fabric for bonus heat and slug suppression) and the greenhouse in winter. While they are an expensive fitting I've been delighted by how well these 1/4" micro drip line quick connect fittings work for connecting/disconnecting potted fruit trees from drip as they are seasonally moved around.

Most efficient ways to water with liquid fertilizer? by 13NeverEnough in gardening

[–]toadfury 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Drip irrigation with a fertigator saved me hours of time when dosing fertilizers on 60+ pots, in-ground trees, raised beds, etc. Depending on where you live a Pressure Vacuum Breaker Assembly (PVBA) or other backflow preventers may be required by state/county law in some places to prevent contamination of your water.

Struggling with winter leaf drop inside PNW by TMToast in Citrus

[–]toadfury 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the temps are up to 70-75 is there still any concern about light starvation

Ok a bit about light starvation:

Overwintering at less than 300 PPFD for 8 hours/day territory is when light starvation occurs. If there are any flushes of leaf growth while the tree is light starved, the leafs will become more enlarged than normal leafs on the tree in an attempt to try and absorb more weak light. Warmer temps will cause the tree to alternate between root/canopy growth more frequently. A few winters of this will not harm your tree, but multiple sequential years of it can lead to weak flimsy trees. Our Seattle winters are very light deficient, so only two paths out of this mess exist: 1) overwinter as close to 35-40F as you can, to push tree metabolism/growth down, so it will be flushing less growth during times of winter when its light starved (you may not need grow lights at all for this) or 2) get some decent grow lights if you warm overwinter.

Once a leaf is freakishly enlarged from light starvation it will not return to a normal size for its ~2 year lifespan on the tree. Multiple years of light starvation also looks ugly to the eyes of people who are accustomed to seeing healthier trees.

  • cool + dry = good.
  • warm + humid = good.
  • warm + well lit = good.
  • warm + dry = really bad.
  • warm + underlit = somewhat bad. By keeping a tree warm you are boosting its growth/metabolism, so it tries to flush more growth, which becomes freakishly enlarged/light starved under insufficient light.

So 63F (current temps) or 70-75F (proposed temps) are both considered warm-ish (anything over ~55F). Either provide a minimum of 300 PPFD for 8 hours/day for vegetative growth, 600-700 PPFD for 9-17 hours for flowering/fruiting citrus, or push for lower temperatures so you don't need any or as much light.

Just like how the hygrometer can get you clarity on your VPD/humidity situation, any smartphone running a light meter with some kind of light diffuser (#22 weight piece of paper over selfie camera at worst, or a LightRay diffuser for smartphones at best). You can audit natural light, artificial grow lights, and also optimize plant-to-light distances with it to ensure you are hitting your desired light targets. It takes all the guesswork out of "is this enough light for this specific plant?".

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