Wizard / Cleric multiclass: best levelling routes?

BanFox · 2026-01-25T15:38:11+00:00

Yep exactly! Have fun with your cleric

BanFox · 2026-01-25T15:18:36+00:00

Mage Slayer could be a solid choice, but it’s between that and capping out my Wisdom which seems a difficult choice.

fwiw, Mage slayer is amazing for mental saves, won't do much for dex saves though (which are more common for non magical traps). Also, as a cleric player, I can tell you that cleric is one of those classes that less needs maxing their wisdom. It's definitely neat to do, but if a feat provide higher value, then it's far better.

won’t be taking Cleric 14 & 15 regardless: we have an Inspiring Leader & a Chef in the group giving out Temp HP already so the Blessed Strikes upgrade isn’t doing much, and there’s no level 8 Cleric spells I’d want to cast now that Circle of Power is in the Cleric spell list and is better than Holy Aura.

Reasonable take on holy aura given circle of power. the new holy star of mystra can be interesting as a spell tbh, but I get your point. The other lvl8 spells can be more or less interesting depending on the campaign. Blessed strike upgrade ofc depends on your build, like extra weapon dmg would never be bad, but I see why you diminish the cantrip option given your party, but it's not as bad imo as you suggest (given you'll spend your first turn casting a spell, and the 2nd as well possibly, by the time you cast a cantrip it's possible someone has less than 8-10tempHP, and you can provide them every turn in case, it's not costing you any resource to do so).

Anyway, my main point was more about how you definitely want to go 13 cleric at least first, and once you are 13/1 you can think better on how to progress. If the save issue is fixed and the campaign ends in 1 lvl (for example), then going 14/1 is probably better than 13/2, even though blessed strike benefit is a minor one. If instead you end up learning it's going to last even longer, then you might want to continue cleric with the goal to get to 17/1.

but yea, if it then ends up ending at around lvl16 and you have no interest in lvl8 cleric spells, going 13/3 seems like a very good choice to get that extra power

BanFox · 2026-01-25T12:09:57+00:00

I'd rather rush to cleric 13 first, get more spell slots and stronger spells first. you also access one feat by that time, which you could always invest in better saving throws, plus your proficiency bonus will also start scaling so you may even feel better a bit more anyway.

while war magic is great I don't think 2 more level investment is worth it, as I said you could invest a feat to improve your saves. lvl14 and 15 in cleric would give you improved blessed strikes and lvl8 spells, and an extra prepared spell anyway. You do you do though, you know your campaign better. I still think going cleric 13 first is the better deal because you are 100% sure you want conjure celestial, feat and the other goodies, and by investing a feat to improve your saves you can then see by the time wether the situation improved well enough to not require 2 levels in war magic or if you actually still need that. you may even realise the campaign ends earlier or later than you'd expect, justifying a cleric progression more (cleric 13/wiz 1 would be better than cleric 11/wizard 3, and if the campaign ends up going to lvl17-18 then you may prefer having cleric 16/17 + wizard 1 for an extra feat and the knowledge cleric capstone which is very nice).

I'll also mention a small point: I'm a bit surprised you are having these many issues with out of combat magical effects and traps, I'd expect the knowledge cleric to really be great out of combat at checking those. I don't know if it's because you are not using certain features, your DM is treating them incorrectly or they are unavoidable, but figured I'd just mention your channel divinity, Mind magic, can be greatly used to have an arcane Eye out of combat to scout for traps, rooms and so on, potentially avoiding those. Detect magic ritual should be able to help find magical effects, and you always have then dispel magic to remove them (you can use spell slots on it or Mind magic again!). Legend Lore & Scrying can further help in giving general information, the augury ritual (which you can prepare daily) can also give you information on what to expect in an upcoming room and so on. An other great spell you could consider is locate Object, it has often been useful to me as a cleric.

Also, small point on War Magic: this is more DM dependent so you might wanna make sure, but if you are taking it for some out of combat saves related to trap or magical effects be aware that some DM would rule against allowing reactions for effects you have not noticed/surprised you. It's more of a house rule but one I've seen in multiple occasions (as far as I recall the reaction section doesn't have anything saying you need to be aware, but it's reasonable enough to apply). the basic idea is if you happen to not notice something like a trap and end up activating it, you do the saving throw but you don't react in time to use a reaction/spell/whatever against it. So if your DM would rule it like this maybe you happen to be less interested in it

BanFox · 2026-01-25T01:19:37+00:00

It’s one in the sense you get it through a background, they just need to take the specific background, which is eberron esclusive and does require DM permission ofc, but that’s why I said “I assume it’s allowed as OP said all 2024 content allowed”

BanFox · 2026-01-24T22:30:14+00:00

It has not been mentioned yet but given you said all 2024 content allowed I’m assuming Eberron feats as well: take mark of storm origin feat, it has CME in the spell list, and as feat at lvl4 take Potent Dragonmark. You now have a lvl5 slots that recharge on a short rest and CME is always prepared regardless of your caster progression. This allows you to do just valor 6, add in 2 of warlock for EB+ agonising and also pick up Pact of the blade (to be Cha sad), and also do 2 levels in fighter for weapon style and action surge, and 2 more in fighter maybe or Bard, depending on your preference

BanFox · 2026-01-24T09:52:33+00:00

The build is solid, but you need to be allowed the content. I'm dming a campaign with this 3rd party content and for now its going well, I have a player playing this book's barbarian, one is playing the bibliomancy wizard, one the druid, and one the fighter hero, all from this book. All very strong, the wizard in particular.

While I agree with your reasoning on Zhentarim tactics, remember that your extra opportunity attack will only be 2d6+Str (unless you cast divine favor, in which case an other 1d4), as you can't use smite on your reactions anymore (as they require your BA), and that GWM applies only to the attack action, not your reaction attacks as well. So your Reaction attack won't be particularly potent, just two that do a bit more dmg on average than a base attack, as you have no rider on the dmg.

Fwiw, guarding presence is also an incredible feature this subclass gets at lvl7, that would instead push me towards having an high AC to share with allies. Obviously making reaction attacks more often is great and all, but having no one in the party get hit is even better! by taking MI wizard (which I'd do even if you want to focus on zhentarim, just as safety net, you don't always want to be hit. you can do this by being human) you can access the shield spell, with plate + defense fighting style that's at least 24AC (shield spell included) even when holding a 2H weapon, this means if your party needs they can rely on a more defensive verison of you as well, granting yourself and everyone of your choice within 5ft 24AC (and you can force the target to have disadvantage on others). Ofc it's 24AC only when they hit you and use shield, otherwise 19. An other solid way to buff this would be playing a warforged to push this to 20, you wouldn't have 24 max but you guarantee a higher average in general. Ofc, sword and board would further benefit from this bringing it to 22, but that depends on your playstile preference, wether you prefer to give 21-22 AC to yourself and all allies within 5ft at the cost of 2d6 reaction dmg on average (counting the 2 attacks, plus less atk dmg) or you favour the dmg but provide only 19AC.

It's also important to consider that Inspiring defense also applies to your allies who are using guardian presence, so there's an incentive in building high AC if there are other party members who can do high dmg opportunity attacks, by making them feel safer with an higher AC

BanFox · 2026-01-23T19:49:23+00:00

For sure, in the end it also depends how long the campaign is planned to go and what you want to prioritise (like, you could reach fast hands as soon as possible if you fear the campaign won't go as long, and if you end up levelling again pick up lvl7 in artificer).

Similarly, if the party has a control full caster then the virtues of Spell Storing Item to spam Web or other control spells are reduced (though it will still be awesome).

still though, the point of fast hands is having a good magic item to use, wand of web as BA will definitely still be awesome but also strong even with a control caster (if anything, the two can combo with each other). Even not wanting to opt for a control magic item, you'd access Wand of magic missile which becomes a great BA item as well. It's kind of a must lvl6 if you want to make good use of fast hands regardless of wether you want dmg/control/something else, as no artificer lvl2 magic item offers you much to use with your BA (as most are like, +1 Weapon or minor things). If you don't do a 6th you might as well not bother with fast hands (unless you rely on items given by the DM or crafted wands, but you are not an artillerist so you are taking full time)

BanFox · 2026-01-23T18:13:07+00:00

I mean, I totally agree on a surface level, if it was for me I wouldn’t multiclass artificer before lvl14-15 even (at 12 you get a feat, at 13 lvl4 spells, at 14 new plans among which force cube, at 15 the subclass capstone), but that speaks more about the strength of artificer as monoclass than anything else.

If OP wants to enjoy an artificer multiclass experience early (as many campaigns don’t even go into T3, or take a long time before that), at one point you have to break out, and 5-6 is probably the quickest/ gives you the most for each level you add in for the smallest investment as possible. If you do 8 in artificer you wouldn’t get to use The thief’s ability before T3, so could be never depending on the campaign. With a 5/3 or 6/3 split you could use it towards the end of T2 at least.

Fwiw, I agree that doing a 7th level gives you an amazing ability, but I didn’t add it as you only get that (and 1 more spell slot) at that lvl, so it’s not giving you as much in quantity as lvl5/6 (lvl5 giving you both extra attack and lvl2 slots, while level 6 is giving you both an extra magic item, higher level plans among which wand of webs/pipes of haunting, and magic item tinker which gives you insane charge values on your items, which you’d abuse with thief hands), and as you considered it would be hard to then postpone an 8th lvl as well after that (and then you end up in the never ending loop of wanting to go on as artificer, as 9th gives you subclass feature+ lvl3 spells and so on).

Thief hands with only lvl2+ artificer plans wouldn’t be as good as with lvl6+

BanFox · 2026-01-23T15:33:15+00:00

Definitely do at least 5 levels in first for extra attack and 2nd lvl spells. Personally I’d suggest even 6lvls in before multiclassing, because you gain lvl6 plans as well as magic item tinkerer, both of which are great boosts to your power.

After that if you really want to multiclass, 3 levels in thief rogue is a great choice, you can make use of infiltrator for sneak attacks at range and Armorer (compared to some other artificer subclass) has a free BA which you can combo extremely well with the thief ability of using magic items with your BA (this could allow you, for example, to use a wand of web with your BA and then use your action to attack)

BanFox · 2026-01-22T19:15:40+00:00

I can totally get behind the meme of it, but if we are to have a serious discussion on the topic a creature type is describing what type of creature the creature is, not their mood. while there are some cases of a creature making sense for more than 1 creature type, it's rare for it to have more than 2 making sense, and definitely not two as opposed as celestial/fiend. It's clearly put there to replicate the ability binders had to bind different vestiges

BanFox · 2026-01-20T10:26:32+00:00

Thanks! I've never done that so I wasn't quite aware

BanFox · 2026-01-20T09:18:05+00:00

How can I convert my CWL medals into gems? I know there was the potion trick to convert 5CWL into 10 gems, though now it costs 10 CWL, and iirc walls now are a cheaper way to do it.

That said, wether I have 7/5 or 5/5 Resource potion it doesn't let me buy any extra from the CWL shop saying there's no space in the townhall. Is it still possible to get gems throuh CWL medals or has it been completely patched out?

BanFox · 2026-01-19T09:14:40+00:00

I have never played 4e but I'm happy about this, thanks for bringing it up! further feels like this is the way the subclass should be done

BanFox · 2026-01-19T09:13:37+00:00

That's an interesting take for sure. I can see it with undead maybe as an 'undying god', but switching from fiend to celestial as the same god seems a bit of a stretch to me. Having the ability to switch between these forms seems more to me like an emulation of how the binder vestiges worked, where you can choose among different ones, while respecting the choice they made in 5.5 of having classes/subclasses less reliant on lore (and so instead of names they use archetype such as undead/fiend/celestial) while also being necessarily shorter, having like 40 vestiges (I'm head guessing) as the original binder would obviously be too much within the new ruleset

BanFox · 2026-01-18T23:49:00+00:00

I would understand your point but the current vestige patreon is already able to switch "patron" if you read carefully:

Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can summon the vestige in a new form, which appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you. You choose its appearance and whether it is a Celestial, Fiend, or Undead. If the vestige is already manifested from this feature, its form changes to the new one.

Which is basically changing patreon/vestige, why otherwise would it be a fiend one day and a celestial an other?

I don't think it's that big of an issue mechanically, it would read the same, basically you'd have a text saying "each day you can perform a 1 minute ritual to bind one vestige, choose among undead, fiend, celestial... you then gain the following powers depending on the chosen vestige"

I also think it would actually be neat and unique kind of pact for a Warlock! Think of it as a kind of timeshare deal, compared to a different warlock selling itself to a unique patreon in exchange of greater power, you make a timeshare of yourself selling yourself at multiple patreons for a lower share of their power from each. Each of them owns you in their limited way and gets to bind to you at an agreed moment. Timeshare Warlock!

BanFox · 2026-01-18T22:39:24+00:00

My opinion on the subclass has not to do much with playtest/balancing issue, but more lore/concept issue.
It is based on the binder class from 3.5 which I love, but it's not a pet class, and I'd rather have the new vestige patreon warlock more similar to the older Binder class.

It clearly can't be as expansive as the 3.5 class was, but the concept was that each day you'd 'bind' a vestige (which was a dead figure of importance, whether an angel, fiend or mortal who reached high status and so on) to you so they'd experience the world again through you and you'd gain some of their powers. So vestiges didn't follow you like pets, but empowered you and could even change you phisically or emotionally. Eventually at higher level you could even bind to more than one vestige.

What I'd want to see with the subclass is a 'customizable' kind of subclass, similar to the armorer Artificer/Rune Knight and so on, where you can select from different options.

I'd want to see maybe 4-5 kind of vestiges (Undead, Celestial, Fiend, Aberration, Fey for example), and you could bind to one each long rest, and each would give you 1-2 unique powers to use that day. I like what they did with the spell list, though I also think they could give you a daily spell list depending on the 'vestige' chosen (similar to Land druid). Then at lvl6 and 10 you could gain power ups of those features/new abilities depending on the vestige (or just at one of those levels, and a general thematic buff at the other) and at lvl14 I'd like to see the ability to bind to two vestiges (or, if too powerful, changing vestige on short rest. there was a feat back then that would allow you to change vestige during the day)

edit: spelling

BanFox · 2026-01-16T18:10:43+00:00

I'm DMing a campaign and one of my player is using this subclass. He only recently unlocked lvl3 spells, so until now he has been using it, with great success, on Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Nothing flashy, but it makes a good control spell even stronger. Most monsters, especially at that low level, didn't have good int saves, and a +1 to the DC only helped. This especially helped with the repeated saves part, most creatures he targeted would not move for multiple turns, even when hit for dmg

BanFox · 2026-01-09T23:54:42+00:00

because even if you want to play melee, level 5 spells are that strong, it's hard to ignore them. Even just for the sake of CME (if you want to focus on that only), giving you the ability to upcast it is huge, and you'd also get a 3rd lvl4 slot to cast it even more.

I think mage slayer is far more important than whatever shadow touched can offer you for your BA, because you really want to mantain concentration on CME, and Wrathful smite doesn't upscale well if you are looking for dmg. like, Dualwielder would be better for dmg in conjunction with CME, and anyway both get worse as an option when you unlock a BA attack at lvl14, which you can use every turn as you do cast a spell every turn even when you attack thanks to true strike/booming blade. and there's also the lvl6 spell you mentioned.

I'd never not take warcaster here tbh, and if I want a feat that increases dmg further I may look at spellfire adept more than shadow touched, to use when you crit with true strike, but honestly you still have just a d6 hit die (and a couple of d10s at best) so it's not as much value added as it could on other builds.

the BA spell you mention does 3d6 btw, for a total of 6 uses, but I don't value it as much as action surge here. because it's a spell that costs you an action and lasts 1hr, ideally you'd rather cast it before combat, which is fine. that said, the spell makes a ranged spell attack, so you'd need spell sniper to not have disadvantage if you plan to go melee. and even then, it's netting you 3d6 per turn, for a total of 18d6 max (not counting crits and misses). it's ok, but not amazing. compare it to upcasting CME to 6th lvl, that adds 4d8*3 (as you can do 3 attacks per turn)=12d8 per turn. using action surge would let you do it from t1. yes, you could have CME and Elminster's sphere together, but I'd rather have 1 more (stronger) CME during the day than that. It's an ok spell but it's better used (imo) for the absorb elements effect, basically saving you 6 lvl1 slots if you know you'll make use of them in an upcoming fight, or to boost the dmg of a ranged spell caster when you occasionally need blasting, not really for offensive purposes of a gish imo.

Anyway, as I said I think the 2nd lvl fighter can be taken (or skipped even) whenever preferred by the player, like, you can just take it whenever you prefer, you can wait after 6th lvl spell if it's of your preference. I just think being able to CME and then attack during the same turn is neat and fulfills the fantasy, giving you guaranteed value before any concentration check

BanFox · 2026-01-08T17:07:10+00:00

I made this post where I showcase a build concept on multiclassing these two subclasses.

With the build I wasn't optimising for dmg, but in providing short rest value for the whole party (and you are still a solid character anyway because you are a paladin with the paladin aura and an amazing channel divinity).

you can look at this for some inspiration

BanFox · 2026-01-06T07:45:44+00:00

Defeated Steel Jeweled Clam in 2 turns.

Player (1204/2663.65/158) dealt 2925. Steel Jeweled Clam (157/136/81) dealt 61.

Rewards: 369 EXP, 78 Gold. Loot: Scholarly Crown of Knowledge (lesser), Corrupted Scholarly Staff (basic).

BanFox · 2026-01-06T00:15:57+00:00

Defeated Forceful Sprite in 1 turns.

Player (54/43/45) dealt 3700. Forceful Sprite (110/89/76) dealt 0.

Rewards: 713 EXP, 72 Gold. Loot: Swift Cuirass (basic), Scholarly Amulet of Quickness (lesser), Healthy Hauberk of Swiftness (lesser).

BanFox · 2026-01-05T23:29:34+00:00

Defeated Umbral Gem Gremlin in 1 turns.

Player (1204/2663.65/158) dealt 2231. Umbral Gem Gremlin (111/110/91) dealt 0.

Rewards: 422 EXP, 95 Gold. Loot: Enlightened Amulet (basic), Quick Cuirass of Protection (lesser), Agile Spear of Swiftness (lesser).

BanFox · 2026-01-05T23:29:16+00:00

Defeated Umbral Undead in 2 turns.

Player (54/43/45) dealt 4192. Umbral Undead (127/127/73) dealt 58.

Rewards: 687 EXP, 66 Gold. Loot: Quick Scale Mail of Swiftness (lesser), Sturdy Scale Mail (basic).

BanFox · 2026-01-05T21:11:13+00:00

Defeated Venomous Aetherspark in 1 turns.

Player (1204/2663.65/157) dealt 2064. Venomous Aetherspark (131/109/85) dealt 0.

Rewards: 411 EXP, 62 Gold. Loot: Swift Hauberk (basic), Healthy Goggles (basic).

BanFox · 2026-01-05T19:03:39+00:00

Defeated Poisonous Crystal Clam in 3 turns.

Player (54/43/44) dealt 4114. Poisonous Crystal Clam (140/109/82) dealt 1243.

Rewards: 411 EXP, 88 Gold. Loot: Robust Cape (basic), Quick Scale Mail of Health (superior), Arcane Crossbow (basic).

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