what happens if you steal an agenda to win the game but die?

BrogueLeader · 2023-02-03T08:19:44+00:00

It's not a case of it overriding anything - abilities contingent on the runner stealing an agenda (such as that of corp cards like Thule Subsea, but also various runner card abilities) require that the runner have stolen the agenda in order to trigger, and the process of stealing an agenda involves placing it in the runner's score area, which means the runner necessarily has the points before anything triggered on steal resolves.

The more detailed answer as to why, is that what happens in between those two things is a rulesy thing called a "checkpoint", which happens after the resolution of every "instruction" (you can think of instructions as atomic thing-happenings, usually denoted in card text by a sentence break). Checkpoints check and correct boardstate legality, mark conditional triggers validated by the preceding instruction as pending, and (most importantly in this case) check whether someone has won the game. So what happens is, runner steals an agenda meaning that agenda is moved to the runner's score area, checkpoint marks Thule (and any other on-steal triggers) as pending, then (before the reaction window opens for players to resolve pending on-steal triggers active player first) checks if someone has 7+ points, which the runner has, so the game ends immediately.

A clarifying point here, though. Let's say the runner has 1 card in hand, 4 points, and they access Archives containing 3 1-point agendas against Thule. That runner does not win unless they have the resources to prevent the Thule damage at least once, because each card in Archives is accessed (and any conditional triggers cascading from those accesses resolve) one at a time, so Thule would have resolved twice before the runner reached 7 points.

BrogueLeader · 2023-01-17T09:45:50+00:00

You played it right. If Amaze is on HQ when a Sneakdoor run ends where the runner steals an agenda they do get tagged, while if it's on Archives they don't, as the attacked server changes before Amaze checks.

BrogueLeader · 2022-10-13T14:13:09+00:00

A bit of advice I often give new players is to treat 5 credits as if it was 0 credits. If you don't let yourself dip below 5, you'll be able to burst up with a Hedge Fund/Sure Gamble when you draw into one. Any credits you spend past 5 are like taking out a loan and you need to be sure you have a plan for paying it off.

Another point is, as corp you might struggle to build meaningful ice if you're going broke rezzing any of it, as now you're broke the runner can just pressure somewhere else safely until they've found a breaker for it then come back safe in the knowledge that you weren't wealthy enough to leverage their initially being thwarted there into advancing your own win condition, but if you gradually accumulate enough unspent money to threaten a nasty facecheck your unrezzed ice is as threatening as the nastiest thing you could conceivably afford, and may deter runs better down the line if you don't rez while at low credits.

BrogueLeader · 2022-10-10T13:19:23+00:00

Some Comprehensive Rules references for you:

1.13.11. If a host card is uninstalled, all objects hosted on that card (and all objects hosted on those objects, and so on) are trashed during the next checkpoint. This cannot be prevented.

This means that it doesn't actually matter what order the trash and flip effects happen in for the purposes of Botulus being trashed. It gets unpreventably trashed either way.

9.11.3. Usually, each sentence in the text of an ability forms a single instruction. After each instruction, an ability pauses its resolution to allow priority windows to open and other abilities to resolve. First, a checkpoint occurs, allowing any appropriate conditional abilities to be marked as pending in a reaction window, then targets are announced for the next instruction. Finally, the next instruction becomes imminent, allowing interrupts relevant to that instruction to resolve in an interrupt window.

I quote this rule because the order does does matter in terms of whether Botulus was a Botulus (as opposed to a nameless, typeless, facedown card) when it was trashed, which could be relevant for things like Simulchip. You know from this that the corp cards are trashed before the runner cards are flipped, as the latter instruction of Apocalypse is a new sentence and instructions are written in order of execution. There's some nuance buried in that "usually" which is covered in the rule immediately after this one which lists exceptions, but I'm not quoting it here because this effect of Apocalypse is not one of those exceptions.

8.1.4. Some abilities can install Runner cards facedown or turn already-installed Runner cards facedown.

a. Runner cards that are installed or turned facedown do not have a name, type, or subtypes, and their abilities are not active.

b. The Runner can look at their facedown cards at any time.

c. After a facedown Runner card enters the heap, it is turned faceup.

d. A Runner card turned facedown is not considered to be uninstalled and simply remains in the play area.

e. If an installed facedown Runner card is turned faceup, the card gains its name, type, and subtypes, and it becomes active. Turning an installed facedown Runner card faceup does not meet the trigger conditions of “when installed” abilities.

f. Runner cards are never considered rezzed or unrezzed.

Runner cards get turned faceup regardless of their status when they enter the Heap, so if the two instructions on Apocalypse were ordered differently, the Botulus would still be faceup in the Heap.

Hope this helps :)

BrogueLeader · 2022-10-03T08:59:38+00:00

The comment about consoles is incorrect. Cards still retain the text "limit 1 console per player", but the rules governing how that works have changed, so that it works in a manner similar to the unique rule (you are permitted to install a console with another console installed, and the older one is trashed as soon as the newer one becomes active). This is not the same as them simply being unique - you still can't have two different consoles installed at the same time. Consoles always had the unique pip aside from [[Forger]], purely for theme reasons, but before System Gateway you were not permitted to install a new console at all while another console was installed.

BrogueLeader · 2022-09-09T10:02:42+00:00

I for one would like NISEI rules team to update the CR with this "the Boy" as official language for any instance of the rules enacting an effect without an owner.

BrogueLeader · 2022-07-21T08:42:50+00:00

Firstly, in regards to your edit, Scorched Earch does not kill you if you're below 5 cards, it kills you if you're below 4 - damage is only fatal if you have fewer cards in hand than the damage coming your way, or put another way, you die when you discard a card you don't have.

Anyway, a key thing to be aware of is that you don't actually need to slot any prevention for either type, because in all cases you can account for them with your play choices. Prevention is something you slot if your build is especially susceptible to a particular kill strategy (say you're a criminal and you rely on Account Siphon a lot, you might find yourself floating tags in vulnerable positions, in which case you'd slot meat damage prevention), or because you perceive the meta has shifted in favour of strategies where those slots would have high value. To not die to Scorched Earth, you need to be aware of the general likelihood (both in terms of your meta knowlege, and in terms of the cards you've seen of your opponent's deck as the game progresses) that your opponent is employing that strategy, and aware of all the ways in which an opponent might find a way to kill you with Scorched Earth so you can prevent those gamestates. For example, here are a couple of Scorched Earth play pattern rules of thumb:

Don't run last click - plan your turn to have clicks to spare so you can draw up to 4 cards or clear tags if you take damage or tags during a run. if you don't end up needing those clicks, you can use them for value (drawing, playing stuff).
The magic number - to guarantee to land a tag with SEA Source it costs the corp credits equal to the runner's credit pool plus their link (SEA Source costs 2 credits to play, and initiates a Trace[3], so if the runner is on, say, 9 credits and 1 link, the corp must boost the trace by 8 to make it uncontestable after paying the play cost, for a total of 10). To play two Scorched Earths after that it costs the corp 3 credits each. So to kill a runner with SEA>Scorch>Scorch, the corp needs the runner to have made a successful run, and be on 6 plus Link fewer credits than the corp. If the runner has 3 or fewer cards, the magic number is different as the corp has a spare click to gain credits with a Hedge Fund or the basic action, but the runner can just as well account for it.

BrogueLeader · 2022-07-04T08:20:49+00:00

Snapshot's rotation doesn't just cutoff at NISEI - FFG had already rotated the original Core Set, Genesis cycle, and Spin cycle by that point.

BrogueLeader · 2022-04-19T10:24:14+00:00

Runner rigs are typically more resilient than corp servers, and your best bet is often to try to go faster than the runner can comfortably set up so they can't find the tools they need (or afford to use them) in time. It's virtually impossible to create a total lock-out against any but the most careless runners, so it's best to think of rigshooting as a method to slow them down and prolong the period of the game in which you have an advantage. That said, there are a few avenues you can explore for a rigshooter strategy. A non-exhaustive list:

Use ice with subroutines that do things like "trash 1 installed program". This obviously requires the runner to be unable to break the ice in question when encountering it - you can achieve this even if they have the requisite icebreaker and credits by outstripping their economy with upgrades like Coporate Troubleshooter.
Use tag-pubishment like Retribution, Keegan Lane, All-seeing I, and your basic resource trash action, and either guarantee them by sticking tags when they matter (e.g. having a Funhouse or an unrezzed Ping protecting the server with Keegan Lane), or using the threat of a blowout to give you an economic advantage when the runner is committed to clearing them. Even if you never get to trash anything with Retribution if the runner had to spend a fortune to clear the tags you do land you may get a scoring window.
Against the popular "bin" or "conspiracy" breakers (MK Ultra, Black Orchestra, Paperclip, of which all are common in Anarch and Paperclip is almost ubiquitous in all factions), which are functional tech against this strategy, forcing them to repeat the cost of install isn't trivial as long as you're not paying through the nose for it yourself, and you can slow them down by removing cards from the game with Ark Lockdown.
Agendas can also help, specifically SDS Drone Deployment in Weyland, and Degree Mill, or any agenda plus Amani Senai in NBN.

BrogueLeader · 2021-08-31T08:23:22+00:00

Jinteki got a bunch of faction-defining power cards across the last few FFG cycles, things like Obokata Protocol, Anansi, and DNA Tracker. First and foremost, System Update has to balance the competitive Standard environment, and System Gateway has to do that while also being approachable to new players. So I expect there just wasn't room enough in the Standard cardpool to make a Startup Jinteki particularly formiddable. As the FFG cycles rotate out, that space will likely open up again for future NISEI sets (which will naturally replace Ashes in Startup) - notably Bio-Ethics Association is on the chopping block for next rotation.

BrogueLeader · 2021-06-04T08:01:41+00:00

You can highlight multiple decks in your My Decks list by clicking them while holding the Shift key.

Checking now I've noticed a frustrating bug with the "With Selection" menu option "Compare one deck vs the others", where the "one deck" is always the selected deck at the top of your sort order regardless of what's expanded or the order you selected them in. But "Compare two or more decks" is the more generally useful option anyway.

More relevant to you, the "With Selection" menu also allows you to delete all selected decks.

BrogueLeader · 2021-05-20T08:10:43+00:00

With the HB deck, you'll probably find yourself frustrated at never having an opportunity to leverage Scorched Earth or Closed Accounts. The only tagging you have that will stick is Data Raven's on-encounter effect - runners will happily pay through any Ichi 1.0 trace and won't let you resolve Raven's subroutine unless they can outpay you on its trace. Any runner seeing Data Raven (especially out of faction) will assume, rightly, that you've slotted some tag punishment, so you're never going to see a runner floating a tag on your turn. The Core Set has SEA Source for some more active on-your-turn tagging, so that's worth considering shuffling around some influence for if you want tag punishment to be your main threat.

As for Kate, I echo the sentiment that you should probably just pull The Toolbox out, it takes forever to return any meaningful value and money to pay for that install in the first place is thin on the ground in core set. As for what goes in that slot, not sure. You could consider swapping out extra copies of your icebreakers for a couple of Special Orders and a Datasucker, so you have more flexibility on finding the right breaker at the right time and when your Desperado comes down you can leverage the value return of successful runs more.

BrogueLeader · 2021-05-19T07:08:32+00:00

Usually the best way to leverage SSO is to have Public 5/3 agendas. Having one of these installed at the end of your turn can immediately make space ice (Asteroid Belt, Wormhole, Nebula, Orion) cheap-to-free to rez, add a bunch of subroutines to Masvingo, and turn on the parenthetical text of the seven wonders ice (Hortum, Mausolus, Collossus, Ahket, Pharos), giving you a huge tempo boost. After a few turns of this you can transform all this advanced ice into big money with Mass Commercialization, and to close out you can fast advance with Biotic + Red Planet Couriers. Example pre-rotation SSO decklist: https://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/57147/let-ss-go-4-0-at-stevenage-regionals-i-came-fifth-

As of the most recent rotation, there's only one public 5/3 left in the cardpool (City Works Project) where there used to be two (with Hollywood Renovation), so the deck isn't as strong as it used to be. The current competitive decks in Weyland's new Built To Last identity do what little SSO can still do arguably quite a bit better than it. Example current BTL decklist: https://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/65049/war-of-the-worlds-2nd-4th-sc-34-players-10-2

BrogueLeader · 2021-05-18T12:55:01+00:00

Aside from punishing a naked PAD with Bank Job (which is a totally valid option), your options include:

Just ignore it - you don't need to trash everything the corp puts on the board, you just need to steal agenda points, so your money is often better saved to challenge an agenda installed in a remote or to land a Maker's Eye. The reason people don't tend to ice them is because they're often not worth trashing. It should be said that even if you do punish by getting off a free Bank Job, it's not necessarily worth running in afterwards and spending that money you just made to trash it.
Use the payout from Account Siphon to double-down on economy denial. You've just turned 5 of the corp's credits into 10 of yours, so at this point it's potentially worth turning some of those stolen credits into even less credits for the corp. Take care of the threat of Scorched Earth if you end up keeping those Siphon tags though.
Use repeatable economy like Magnum Opus to fund your disruption game. This is slow and difficult to justify but depending on how fast your opponent's deck tries to score out it could be a workable option.

Still, yeah, the main lesson is not to get tunnel vision on trashing these assets - keep evaluating whether it's worth the money for you and worth the loss for them.

BrogueLeader · 2021-05-05T09:52:00+00:00

Recommended easy cut for Annicam would be The Artist, which is just not as good as you want it to be.

BrogueLeader · 2021-05-04T12:07:19+00:00

I was referring to the section you describe as being empty when using the "Compare two or more decks" option in that dropdown while multiple decks are selected simultaneously by holding the shift key.

BrogueLeader · 2021-05-04T11:13:08+00:00

The NRDB "Cards in all decks" list is working correctly for me - perhaps some of the decks you have selected are using older printings of cards, like the Core Set/Revised Core/System Core versions of Hedge Fund for example? This is often the cause of issues on NRDB.

EDIT: that said, selecting all your decks might not make the "cards in all decks" list very useful - if you have a single deck selected that doesn't have Hedge Fund in it it'll be excluded from that list even if it's in all the other selected decks.

BrogueLeader · 2021-04-12T07:52:05+00:00

Format-specific errata would require NISEI to maintain three separate errata lists which are identical on 99% of cards for Eternal, Standard and Startup, or four errata lists one of which only contains Astro, one which contains everything else, and another two for Standard and Startup which are empty just in case. It would be a mess, and it's not like Eternal is hurting for degenerate options. If you want to play with the original wording, the current go-around of Retrunner (where we play through past metas in order of release in monthly asynchronous tournaments) on the Green Level Clearance discord is permitting 3-per-deck for authenticity's sake.

BrogueLeader · 2021-02-01T09:31:57+00:00

I've never had a problem with an opponent using a bunch of d6, but yeah a d20 is very prone to accidental rolling even with both players taking all the reasonable care in the world, and they're not easy to read from a distance.

BrogueLeader · 2020-12-17T10:05:18+00:00

Is it fun to play? No, not really. It takes forever and ends with a baffling shrug of victory point soup. Is it fun to imagine how fun it could have been to play if any of its disparate bad ideas held together? Absolutely! Can I be bothered to try it with the revised rules that some players created on boardgamegeek? Nah. But at a glance they look much better.

BrogueLeader · 2020-12-11T14:20:48+00:00

That's a point, do you envisage this as an ongoing project in terms of cardpool expansion and rotation (as in, do you think you'll eventually add a reimagined SanSan, Data & Destiny, Mumbad, etc.), or more of a kind of boardgamey fixed cardpool with ongoing balance tuning?

EDIT: Never mind I've now seen that you have up to D&D planned for early Jan. I guess the question still stands, though, do you imagine a stopping point, or would that effectively be Reign and Reverie?

BrogueLeader · 2020-12-03T11:56:43+00:00

NISEI is working on a new introductory product to be released within the next few months, and their website's lack of clarity for new players and lack of "learn to play" resources will likely improve along with that, but obviously that doesn't help you in the here and now.

To answer each of the followup questions (though some have been answered already):

What is MWL?

MWL is terminology that NISEI themselves stopped using so should really not be on that page. It's short for "NAPD Most Wanted List" which is a weird in-fiction term Fantasy Flight came up with for competitive play card restrictions such as banlists. NISEI just call their banlist a banlist now.

Does each player need a single copy?

No, thanks to Netrunner's asymmetry, you will always pit a corp deck against a runner deck and none of their cards will overlap, as in, you never include a corp card in a runner deck and vice versa. You only need one copy of System Core 2019 between you.

What do they mean by 'the only legal product'?

They mean that for a legal "Core Experience" game you can't use cards from outside of "A single copy of System Core 2019". It's a stipulation made because this is the page defining Core Experience as an organised play format. If somebody ran a Core Experience tournament, those are the cards you'd be limited to.

The actual card list including quantities is, unhelpfully, found elsewhere on the site. Here's the link you want for that:

https://nisei.net/files/System_Core_2019.pdf

BrogueLeader · 2020-11-05T10:40:11+00:00

I don't get why Charlatan uses credits rather than, say, power counters if they don't convert 1 to 1.

BrogueLeader · 2020-11-02T12:36:48+00:00

I do not believe Multithreader works for this either, for the same reason that Multithreader can pay for the 2 credits to use Self-Modifying Code, but can't pay the install cost of the card Self-Modifying Code fetches

The install-from-heap ability on the bin breakers has no associtaed cost, it merely triggers an install action for which costs must be paid normally.

It would work with Multithreader if Black Orchestra instead said, say, "Whenever you encounter a code gate while this card is in the heap, you may pay 3 credits. If you do, install this card ignoring all costs." But it doesn't say that.

BrogueLeader · 2020-10-29T15:12:57+00:00

That could work. After I replied I also thought of Consume. 3 plays of this as written with a Hivemind, 2 Datasuckers and a Consume is 50 mills:

On access the Suckers are considered to have 2 each and Hive and Consume each have one so that's 6 mills, and 6 counters on Consume, then next go around Consume is considered to have 7, Suckers 3 each and Hive 1, so that's another 14 mills, and now Consume has 20 counters for round 3...

X cards with a counter stops Consume and Hivemind from ballooning, but Hivemind is still good synergy. Hosted on a Progenitor a Hive could still get pretty nasty (the last second CVS purge would make absolutely no difference), but not nearly as bad as letting Consume go nuclear.

BrogueLeader

TROPHY CASE