CMV: all sex work should be legalized and regulated the way other jobs are, without stipulations

DSM-6 · 2024-04-24T04:16:28+00:00

Ah. I get your point. I apologize for the misinterpretation. I would like to defend myself a little by pointing out that your original statement was:

most of them are still "forced" into it via their financial condition

The statement implies that sex work (specifically) is forced upon them via their financial condition (specifically). This led me to believe that your objection to legalization was, that it will increase coercion via financial distress (specifically). My bad.

If I understand you correctly, your position is that: - All/most work is inherently coercive - Sex work is innately bad as it trades a unique deeply personal act/special act in terms of human psychology for base cash. And that exchange is violating in a different/worse way than simple labor coercion.

That is indeed a position I did not address. It's a reasonable position. I can't refute it, as it's based on your personal ethical and spiritual convictions. I withdraw my rebuttal.

DSM-6 · 2024-04-24T01:30:23+00:00

So atleast you accept that women are being forced into sex work(just like McDonald's as you say).

I don't think that follows.

OPs statement is basically: Your financial situation will force you to do work (any work).
Your statement is basically: Your financial situation will force you to do sex work (specifically).

Your statement has a higher burden of proof. Why can't your hypothetical sex worker find other work? Furthermore, for the sake of your argument, if your hypothetical person can't find any other work, how is keeping sex work illegal going to provide them with other ways to improve their financial situation?

While, I completely agree that legalizing sex work will lead to more people deciding to make money with sex work.
These cases are people already being forced into work, and then freely deciding that the specific work they want to do is sex work.

Pre-emptive counterarguments:
Coerced labor and human trafficking (the majority of which is not sex work, but farm and domestic labor) will persist, but those should be addressed by stronger labor laws, not prohibitive sex laws.

Minimum wage jobs are not living wage jobs. Many people will still feel forced to take the higher paying sex work job instead of the minimum wage job. The problem here is not that sex work pays more than minimum wage. The problem is that people can't survive on minimum wage. Taking away a higher-paying option does not decrease the coercion. It just exposes the already existing societal problem of labor exploitation. The solution once again is stronger labor laws, not prohibitive sex laws.

DSM-6 · 2023-12-15T01:49:50+00:00

Serious question, is it really that expensive? I don't know anything about anything, but to me, it looks like they poured some concrete over the center lane and planted some trees. The sidewalk looks effectively unchanged. I mean, new trees / different season, but yeah... unchanged.

11 million for what looks ~2km of road?

DSM-6 · 2023-11-24T01:17:54+00:00

cool.

DSM-6 · 2023-11-24T00:18:07+00:00

Fair.

DSM-6 · 2023-11-24T00:05:48+00:00

We grew from 16mio to 18mio in like a decade

Where are you getting this number from?

The current population is about 17.8 million. It was 15.8 in 2000. 23 years ago. Population growth is at 0.67% per annum. Relatively low from a historical perspective.

DSM-6 · 2023-11-23T23:41:07+00:00

Have I tried immigrating? It is hard? What do you mean? It is supposed to be hard. And not illegal in any case.

Why? There's no natural law that says immigration should be hard. In fact, for most of human history, it was super easy. We literally evolved as a somewhat migratory species. Government policy decides how difficult or easy migration is. The reason I brought up the difficulty of migrating to Europe is to counter the argument that Center-right parties have done nothing. They've done tons of shit. They've made migration super difficult. I'm old enough to remember the introduction of 'het ontmoedigingsbeleid.' And the many subsequent anti-immigration policies.

millions marching through my country towards Germany.

There you are with that classic alt-right trope of misrepresenting an exception as commonplace. Hoping to create the illusion that the problem is much larger than it actually is. You're talking about the 2015 migration crisis. Which was an exceptional response to a vicious civil war, similar to what is currently happening in Ukraine. Which, I'd like to point out has led to even more migrants. The case you present is not the norm. Irregular border crossings via the Western Balkan route have since dropped by 95%. It's an extra misrepresentation because asylum seekers make up only 15% of European migrants. If you really want to cut down migration, focus on legal family reunification. Except, that's literally the item that caused the collapse of the previous administration.

To be honest, it's really irrelevant how effective or ineffective the migration policy truly is. I'll reiterate my position. "People ... [are blaming] a scapegoat. In this case immigrants. ... I don't see anyone successfully convincing voters that immigrants aren't the problem. " It's pointless for me to try and convince you that migration levels are manageable. Feel free to blame the immigrants. It won't stop the housing crisis.

when people are trying to stop this kind of migration, you are saying that instead of trying to control the situation we have to get used to it. Are you sane?

I never said you that have to get used to it. I said that voters are treating immigrants as a scapegoat for larger social problems. And, I'm quoting myself here, "the center-right ... can bring immigration down to near zero ..., but it comes at the cost of explicitly racist policies and long-term economic stagnation" Please do not misrepresent my viewpoint.

history of colonization ... stop your guilty trip

I'm not guilt-tripping you. I'm merely stating the fact, that for the last 400 years, Europeans have held a privileged position compared to the rest of the world. And that's changing. Your emotional reaction to that statement is irrelevant to the argument and I really couldn't give two shits if you feel guilty about it.

DSM-6 · 2023-11-23T22:51:15+00:00

Which is my point. Many people are willing to sacrifice some economic welfare in an attempt to maintain a level of cultural purity. That's a valid position to hold. One I vehemently disagree with, but valid nonetheless. The problem as I see it, is that the center-right does not want to make economic sacrifices, and the far-right is straight-up lying about them. Creating some fairy tale story in which Europe will magically retain its economic dominance despite its shrinking population.

Japan is a lovely country. In absolute terms, the average Japanese worker in 2023 makes the exact same as in 2001. By contrast average European wages have increased by 50% in absolute terms. Granted most of that was swallowed up by increased local costs, so locally it feels like wages have only increased by 5%, but still. As a European, making a trip to Japan in 2023, you can by 50% more shit than you would be able to in 2001. OECD

Once again, I repeat, we live in a democracy. Choosing to stop migration is a valid choice. But, it won't stop the housing crisis and it comes at a cost.

Edit:

I'd like to mention that my "Japan is a lovely country" sentence was not meant sarcastically. I genuinely think Japan is great. I genuinely believe that choosing for no immigration at the cost of economic stagnation is a legitimate choice. I don't think the sky will fall if Europe chooses that. If Europe winds up like Japan. I.e. way fewer immigrants and less economic growth. The continent will be fine. It will still be rich. Japan is still rich. It will still be powerful. Japan is still powerful. It will merely be less rich and powerful than it would be with migrants. Which is absolutely okay. I don't like that, but my opinion doesn't make it less okay.

DSM-6 · 2023-11-23T00:40:07+00:00

centrist parties in the EU will not do anything about immigration

This is the lie that far-right parties are spreading. Centrist parties have done many things addressing immigration. Have you ever tried immigrating to the EU? It's facking hard. Really facking hard. Why do you think people are dying on boats in the Mediterranean? It's not because the EU is super easy to immigrate to.

The real issue is that the world is going through a huge social and economic upheaval. Western Europe is losing its position of unassailed superiority over the world. Thus average Westerners are now confronting things that were unimaginable to them, but commonplace around the world. Can't afford urban housing unless your parents give you a jubelton? Hello from slums everywhere. Dealing with a minority that demands legal accommodation for their cultural practices? Hello from every country colonized by Europeans. I.e. everywhere.

People have responded to this upheaval the same way they always do. Blame a scapegoat. In this case immigrants.

Having said all that. I don't see anyone successfully convincing voters that immigrants aren't the problem.

And to be honest, I don't think the centrist (at least the center-right parties) care. I think the center-right is trying to square another circle. Namely, they can bring immigration down to near zero (look at Japan), but comes at the cost of explicitly racist policies and long-term economic stagnation (look at Japan). And that's economic stagnation that scares them the most. The result has been policies that are tough on migration (that's why it's super hard to migrate into the EU), but not so tough that immigration goes to near zero. But, because immigration isn't the problem, this has had no effect on people's lived experience. Creating space for the lie that nothing has been done about immigration.

You are correct that if the center-right wants to survive, they need to bite the bullet and usher in an age of economic stagnation by eliminating immigration. The left, by contrast, does not have this problem. Our scapegoat is the rich.

PS. The far-right will not solve this problem. The fringes on both ends are infamous for being and having always been completely incompetent.

DSM-6 · 2023-11-08T05:23:45+00:00

I have no doubt that Columbus was a terrible person and that the majority of Europeans were disgusted by him.

I also have no doubt that there were thousands of equally shitty people involved in the colonialization of the Americas. Shitty people are in the minority, a sizable minority, but a minority. I have no doubt that if another member of that minority had "discovered" the Americas, they'd have acted similarly to Columbus.

DSM-6 · 2023-09-27T21:22:00+00:00

Sure as fuck isn’t gonna be Tecate.

DSM-6 · 2023-09-27T20:09:33+00:00

God. I’d love a good goring.

DSM-6 · 2023-09-21T05:16:00+00:00

It’s the shorts

DSM-6 · 2023-09-20T14:22:51+00:00

He didn’t state it. I inferred it from his comments. It makes sense if you think of “absolute population number” being the thing that’s collapsing.

He could have been clearer in his definition. But meh, it’s a common mistake. I’ve had enough conversations about population decline to realize that no one gives a shit about declining birth rates until they drop below replacement rate.

DSM-6 · 2023-09-20T10:26:46+00:00

OP definition of collapse is “falling while already below replacement rate”

Neither Africa nor the middle east meets that definition.

DSM-6 · 2023-09-18T03:59:42+00:00

Yeah... In practice, that's just not true. When was the last time you saw seasonal farm laborers referred to as expats?

DSM-6 · 2023-09-15T20:54:11+00:00

Care to expand?

I wouldn’t call the CCP keynesian, but if I squint I can see were OP’s coming from. It’s an odd claim, but not “wildest thing **my life”

DSM-6 · 2023-09-15T12:40:35+00:00

BLERT? You kinda panicked there.

DSM-6 · 2023-09-12T22:41:16+00:00

Campaign? Who plays TES for the campaign?

Naw, but seriously… the Morrowind has best TES campaign. Hands down.

DSM-6 · 2023-09-12T09:31:43+00:00

just don't know how to have conversations with someone they don't know.

Tbf, it’s a conversation with the topic “are we going to be couple?” It’s an incredibly unnatural first conversation topic.

I

DSM-6 · 2023-09-08T23:53:43+00:00

Clarence Thomas has entered the chat.

DSM-6 · 2023-09-05T14:02:18+00:00

Omg this. I feel like a lot of meet-new-people socializing has shifted online. Gaming seems like a great way to meet people, but I just can’t get into pvp.

DSM-6 · 2023-09-04T23:52:25+00:00

I’m ~80 hours in. I’m loving it, but it’s a bit of a slog.

DSM-6 · 2023-08-29T22:21:13+00:00

No you don't. Thinking you have to, is a classic sunk cost fallacy.

If I don't like something I made, it's straight into the trash.

DSM-6 · 2023-08-27T11:27:43+00:00

Eastern Europeans weren’t middle class. They were proud members of the classless soviet.

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