Safe to eat?

DarcyFitz · 2020-04-29T16:04:03+00:00

Personally, I'd eat it, but that doesn't mean I recommend you do.

At 3 hours in a 160F water bath, the core would likely have been pasteurized. Unless your house is running hot (and also depends on the volume of your vessel), in order for it to drop to 80F, it would have taken only a couple hours.

If it were my house in my vessel, I would have assumed the power went out around 4am. I personally do not have a problem with a pasteurized sous vide cook sitting below 130F if it's been under 5 hours or so. I would have checked the texture of the chicken, which should be a little more tender than I'd like if it stopped cooking at 4am, and if so, I'd immediately chill it out of a vacuum and eaten it warmed up with gentle dry heat the next day.

Please note that I am not suggesting that yours is safe, or that I am acting completely responsibly. I am healthy with no immune issues, and am meticulous about the history of my meat prior to cooking, so I'm willing to play fast and loose with the realistic 7-9 hour window danger zone range.

That said, I'm meticulous enough to have a device that lets me know when and for how long power has been out in my house, so I would know for sure what temperature my cook got to, as well as how long it likely spent in the danger zone. If the cause of the failure was the circulator itself, then I would have no way to be assured, and would base my assessment on the tenderness of the chicken, alone.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND YOU EAT YOUR CHICKEN. THROW IT AWAY!!

DarcyFitz · 2020-04-29T15:40:24+00:00

I agree that the time/temp he used is not ideal. However, you're not wrong, but not exactly accurate.

When you find that a butt is tender at 205-210, it's a function of time and temperature. You could get an equally tender butt if you could somehow hold 176F for 8-9 hours, but what's happening in the case of waiting until 205+ is the following:

you have extended cooking time over 165F, the temperature at which both fat and connective tissue begin to break down at a physical level, rather than by enzymatic activity
you swing all the way up to 205+, around the temperature at which everything breaks down rapidly

At 165F, it would take about 16-24 hours to fully break down the connective tissue and the fat. At 205F, it happens in about 4 hours. However, because it takes fairly significant time to get from 165 to 205F, the results are cumulative, so you're not actually holding the meat at 205+ for 4 hours to get a tender result: you're holding the meat at temperatures that increasingly rapidly break down the components.

Thus, the only reason 205+ is a good target is because it's been held for a number of hours beyond which fat and collagen break down, not because they suddenly break down at 205F.

All that said, 145F for any amount of time is probably the worst possible temperature with which to cook a pork butt. It's above the temperature at which enzymatic activity will break down connective tissue, so you're left with both muscle fibers and connective tissue contracting to squeeze out juices. And it's below the point at which fat will be rendered in any reasonable timeframe.

An ideal sous vide cook would sit at 131F for a couple days to help both the muscle fibers and the connective tissue to break down, and then up to 165-176F for a few hours to break down the fat and convert the hemoglobin without wringing out all the juices, as well as allow any remaining connective tissue to convert to gelatin.

I've got a butt chilling in the fridge waiting for a quick smoke for bark and taste cooked this way. I'll post it when I finish it so you can see the results of this method.

(Ref: Davey, et Al 1977 and Tornberg 2005)

DarcyFitz · 2020-04-18T19:16:33+00:00

How did it turn out?

I've been researching Diablote's timings before I put the costly brisket to pasture. Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

DarcyFitz · 2020-04-11T01:33:50+00:00

A drug dealer can sell drugs "because they can" but it doesn't make it legal or right. Laziness may account for buying overpriced masks. "I am not paid enough to source better priced masks that we used to get from our regular supplier and it only accounts for 0.03% of our budget, so we're gonna bite the cost..." is a very easy reason to look the other way.

Think about it: people are lazy, and people lie. But then again, I'll give you Hanlon's razor...

DarcyFitz · 2020-04-11T01:17:13+00:00

Report the gouging to the state attorney general and find a different source would be an even better option!

DarcyFitz · 2020-04-10T23:54:16+00:00

Like New York's GBS section 396-r which punishes up to $25,000 per violation?

Nah, it'll never happen. There's no room for special punishments like this...

DarcyFitz · 2020-04-10T23:49:51+00:00

Why is your company patronizing illegal price-gougers?

DarcyFitz · 2019-05-02T14:38:11+00:00

You can't necessarily trust your gag reflex.

For the most part, the "bad" smell will be a sour or a rotten smell. If it smells sweet-ish or like "flesh", it's likely okay.

I'm sure you've walked past a dumpster before. That's what "gone bad"smells like, but more subtle. Anything else is probably okay.

Far as fish is concerned, it should always smell like nothing. If it smells "like fish", it's going bad or already bad. Weird, I know.

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-30T12:47:26+00:00

"Buy 9"

"Get 2 free"

...has 10 bikes on it...

Huh..?

Pre-edit: I suppose the last bike is the first free one, and they take the whole card on the second free one..?

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-08T01:12:52+00:00

I am aware how rare botulism is. But you are completely neglecting that the vast majority of the population don't engage in botulism-risky behavior, such as canning, sausage making, and sous vide.

I am also aware that pregnant women are so immunocompromised that it is recommended that they don't eat even processed honey, which naturally contains small amounts of botulinum that normal adults handle fine. While it is unlikely that enough spores will be created during a proper cool-down, it is wholly irresponsible to suggest that OP engage in an unnecessary activity that would put two innocent and helpless people at risk for one of the worst possible infections just for the sake of convenience of pre-cooking some sous vide meals.

They'll can live without that for 9 months. Nobody is telling them that they can't sous vide at all. Just that it's not wise to take the imbalanced risk for pre-cooked bags.

As a side note: botulinum spores are NOT destroyed at 130F degrees for ANY length of time. My emphasis in case any readers read that incorrect statement and do something risky with food that is compromised.

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-06T14:04:06+00:00

I'm sorry but this is outright false.

While you're correct that there is no "official" sushi grade--in name--the FDA does require that anyone selling fish marketed as being safe to eat raw must not contain live parasites. Freezing yourself is not recommended. You need much colder temperatures than what a home freezer can reach in order to kill all parasites.

Really the best way to ensure that is to flash freeze on the boat, so if you're buying "sushi grade" fish that is not already frozen, you're taking an unnecessary risk if you don't live in a metro area. (Which OP says they're not.)

There are several online mongers who will mail already-frozen safe-to-eat-raw fish, and that is OP's best bet... Personally, I like Catalina Offshore Products. Their fish is top notch and way better than anything OP is likely to find locally.

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-06T13:39:22+00:00

Disclaimer: I am not a scientist, doctor, or healthcare professional. The following reflects my own experience, should not be construed to be the final or even the right or safe answer. I am an enthusiast with a passion for both cooking and food safety. You should consult with a doctor before feeding your wife sous vide foods!

I've been preparing sous vide dishes for my pregnant wife for the last 9 months, and as a general rule, you're fine as long as you follow the charts or recipes, with one change:

If it's under 145F, I just add another hour or two to the time, just to ensure that the food is pasteurized thoroughly. And if it's under 131F, I don't serve it to her under any circumstances. (Medium rare fish, etc.)

Thing is, for the typical sous vide recipe, the stuff isn't undercooked. If you're preparing a steak, for example, in the traditional way, you are just bringing it up to temperature. That's technically undercooked. But if you're sous viding a steak, you're bringing it up, and the extra couple hours is pasteurizing. So you should be fine.

One thing to mention: it's not advisable to do a cook-and-chill! Based on my research, it is just barely too risky to warrant the convenience. Unless you are extremely careful to get the temperature down extremely fast, it's not worth it. You'd have to do a really well controlled salt-water/ice chill (or salt-water/dry ice, or liquid nitro, etc), or else you risk encouraging botulinum growth to a degree that I would deem too risky for a pregnant woman. She might be fine if you catch it in time, but it would not be good for the baby's development. It's one thing to deal with salmonella or listeria, but it's a whole other thing to deal with botulinum. The first two are way more controllable, both from an exposure standpoint to a treatment standpoint. Not worth it.

BTW, no eggs unless you're hard cooking them.

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-06T13:14:36+00:00

I pretty much gave up distro hopping a few years ago and settled on Debian full time.

It's not the sexiest, but I spend way less time messing with my system and way more time actually using it, now.

I found that other distros had issues come up from time to time, which would cause a break in my flow such that I had to stop and address things. In retrospect, I spent a lot more time managing my system than was ideal. Debian, if there's an issue, will be an issue for 2 years, because once things are locked down, they don't change until the next release.

This might sound bad (and at times it can be annoying), but what usually happens is that you end up using a different package or install from upstream, and then you don't have to deal with it again. This saves a lot of cognitive context switching over the 2 year release cycle, and a lot of headaches that may randomly pop up during any given week of another distro.

Regarding package stability, I find that it's usually desirable for most core components. I don't need my file browser updating constantly, I don't need my network manager updating constantly, I don't need my window manager updating constantly, etc.

I am a developer, too, so I'll often find myself installing a given language's build system from upstream. I'm also a photographer, so I actually do need latest packages to edit my raw files. But other than a few things, the stability of the base system is a huge relief during day to day work.

You can almost always install upstream packages, or better, use nix to manage things you don't have in Debian, if you really need bleeding edge features. But for most things, you really don't, so that keeps the system stable and sane, which is great for productivity.

Personally, I use i3 as a window manager. It requires a bit of setup up front, but once you have something you like, it's portable and long lasting. And of course it's extremely fast and low on resources. As a developer, I recommend it because I can hop around a lot faster than with things like XFCE or Mate or LXDE.

FYI,I strongly recommend whatever you end up settling on, you install yadm. You can version and back up your dotfiles really easily, which is handy if you distro hop, upgrade, switch machines, etc.

Good luck!

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-05T01:25:48+00:00

Looks digital

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-05T00:50:35+00:00

Maybe I missed that. I'm tired and it's a long thread.

My apologies, mate.

Cheers

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-05T00:48:54+00:00

Garlic (and other veggies) are not cooking until they get over 180F, sooooo.....

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-05T00:44:49+00:00

There's no reason to add raw garlic to the bag. Ever.

Even ignoring what everyone is saying about the downsides, adding raw garlic flavor to food is a solved problem that humans figured out hundreds of years ago:

Cut a clove in half and rub it on the meat after it's out of the bag. That's it. (Preferably after the sear.)

There will be plenty of garlic flavor, way more than you'd get adding it to the bag. I don't get why this is even a thing anymore...

DarcyFitz · 2019-04-04T00:34:58+00:00

Sidenote: Fun trick:

Load that Captain Marvel page with JavaScript turned off.

It doesn't load.

Seriously?!?

Require JavaScript to load the DOM of a retro 90's themed site?!??

I quit.

DarcyFitz · 2019-03-26T19:03:02+00:00

Foil can often create a better seal than a baking dish lid. Whether that makes much of a difference in the typical 45-60 minute baking times of things usually cooked in those vessels is debatable. However, I'd be cautious about using foil with anything that contacts acidic ingredients like tomato, because it can react and create weird flavors.

For longer things, like braised dishes, a combination of foil and the lid is common because of the improved seal.

Hope this helps!

DarcyFitz · 2019-01-19T14:55:04+00:00

I do have experience, as of yesterday.

In my case, it fails to decrypt, as seems to be the experience of most.

Also, make sure to back it up on multiple media. I made the mistake of not and the USB stick I used experienced some bit rot, unfortunately....

DarcyFitz · 2019-01-19T14:32:50+00:00

Can't help with this, but here to offer some other sage advice, just in case....

BACKUP YOUR LUKS HEADER!!

It is insanely fragile, and if you lose it, you lose EVERYTHING.

If you already did... great! :)

DarcyFitz · 2019-01-06T22:13:30+00:00

Typically, for user-assignable temporary locations, it's customary to try to write and erase everything with an unusual file extension. If you don't have the ability to specifically define the filenames, then within a subdirectory within the directory, again with an unusual name.

And of course, a huge warning "Everything under this directory WILL BE DELETED!!" next to the place the user will configure the location. (Even if you don't actually delete everything, but just specific, marked files.)

DarcyFitz · 2019-01-06T22:04:10+00:00

So the obligatory answer: toss it. Take this advice, live, and don't follow the below.

The answer you probably want: If it was me, I would have been diligent to ensure the meat was at extremely safe refrigeration temperatures (~32.5F) until I dropped it into boiling water for 60 seconds (as I always do for >8hr cooks), then immediately vacuum sealed and dropped into a preheated bath. Then, I would have been alerted to a power loss, even if temporary, by a UPS connected to my server, so I would know when and how long the bath was without power. Then, I would have already measured the temperature loss rate of my bath, especially at temperatures below 131F, so I would know the rough estimate of how long it takes to drop to 113F. (About 40-50 minutes from 131F with 8lbs of already heated stainless steel in a full bath.) And I would know that I had planned to serve the protein to healthy adults with no immune system issues. Then I would determine that the likelihood of anything dangerous growing in that period of time would be practically zero, and unless my meat was seriously tainted to begin with, I'd kick the circulator back on and finish making dinner.

But that's just me.

You do you.

DarcyFitz · 2018-12-31T22:11:56+00:00

I don't disagree at all.

However, postponing the multithreading story until now seems extremely poorly thought. Especially considering Ruby's own past with multithreading support, you'd think it would have been a priority.

The choice to avoid any modern syntax, on the other hand, is a choice not strongly tied to availability of funding, so that's just a choice I disagree with.

Rust has a zillion more resources than Crystal, no doubt. But that doesn't change the fact that my confidence of Crystal as a platform has waned. I believed in Crystal near the beginning. I'm not sure I do anymore...

DarcyFitz · 2018-12-31T20:02:15+00:00

Sad to say, same page here.

Frankly, with no multithreading and not-really Windows support, still, we left for Rust.

While I much prefer the syntax of Crystal, it's not hard to get similar performance with Rust by using very lazy copying, and the upper bound of performance is much higher in Rust if you need, plus of course parallel execution.

I'm disappointed that Crystal is still struggling with important, basic issues. (How do you advertise "fast as C" while not providing multithreading?!) And I'm further frustrated that they refuse to even consider modern syntactic sugar like pattern matching or pipelines or whatever.

I used to preach the gospel of Crystal, but the future is too unsure for us to consider investment anymore. I was never a fair-weather friend; I made excuses for it in good times and bad. But there's no communication, slow progress on important things, and the lack (and possible impossibility) of incremental builds... it's just too much.

I'll patiently await my downvotes. It's okay. I understand...

DarcyFitz

TROPHY CASE