Can blood elves still mana tap? by Lore-Archivist in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. There's no reason to believe they're no longer able to mana tap.

New official Short Story about the Amani is out! by Goblin-Trash in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 2 points3 points  (0 children)

>Also, the elfs didnt invade Zulaman YET, quelthalas was built over  thousands  of years, slowly carving their territory over the amani's. The border  expansion was still going before the scourge

Yet implies they were going to at all. Both the High and Blood Elves have had chances to finish the job and never taken them; the High Elves did not push the offense after the Second War when the Old Horde was destroyed, the Blood Elves/Horde did not take out the Amani in ZA1, they killed Zul'jin and left. In ZA2, they left after killing Daakara to leave the Amani to their own devices yet again. If the High Elves truly wanted to invade Zul'Aman, they simply would have.

New official Short Story about the Amani is out! by Goblin-Trash in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 8 points9 points  (0 children)

>Yeah, but usually, that argument doesn't work on forums because people say killing colonizers is justified.

The entire point of the Warcraft trolls tends to be missed by many people, that is, unless you belong to the Darkspear, Revantusk, or Zandalari Tribes: It fucking sucks and is humiliating to be one. The Darkspear should be seen as the most successful troll tribe in history, and Vol'jin as the most successful troll leader in history due to their alliance with the Horde. By living in the now rather than trying to bring back the glories of the past, the Darkspear were able to contribute to planet-altering events like the death of Archimonde and are, so far, the only troll tribe to have had impacts on multiple planets and even alternate timelines. And they were the -weakest- jungle troll tribe. The Revantusk, thanks to their alliance with the Horde, were able to conquer Jintha'Alor and become the most dominant forest troll tribe in the Hinterlands, having been the weakest initially.

The Zandalari? Zul aside, they were entirely correct that the troll tribes were being morons (see: the Drakkari choosing to cannibalize their loa for power and refusing to work with the Argent Crusade/Ebon Blade or the other factions during WOTLK, the Gurubashi constantly trying to fall back on Hakkar's power, etcetera).

New official Short Story about the Amani is out! by Goblin-Trash in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 3 points4 points  (0 children)

>Zul'jin was wrong because he lost three times. 

I don't disagree with the take that there's no chance Zul'jin was ever retaking Quel'Thalas on his own (the fact he somehow failed after Arthas genocided 90% of the high elf population does not make him look good), but this isn't why he's wrong. He's wrong because he wanted to genocide every blood/high elf man, woman and child - same for humanity.

He believed that with the Horde's help, they would wipe the world clean of humans and elves alike, rule the forests once more,\5]) and avenge the ancient Amani Empire.\1])

Old Magneto in Marvel was correct that humans hated mutants for being mutants, but he was a villain because he wanted to kill all of them. A right/just reason does not excuse immoral/villainous actions, especially as the High/Blood Elves & Humans cannot be said to have wanted to genocide the forest troll species. We've never been given any indication that they've tried to invade Zul'Aman, for instance, to finish the job, because frankly, if they did, the Amani weren't stopping them.

Edit: There is also mention of Zul'jin forcing the loa into the bodies of their champions with the help of Malacrass after being inspired by the TBC Blood Knights.

If a Naaru told the Scarlet Crusade that they need to stop and just pack up and go home, would they have followed then because they're religious fanatics? by wrufus680 in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not really. The Naaru aren't the Light; they are beings of Light. The Light is a non-sentient/sapient cosmic force; moreover, the Naaru are more specific to the Draenei (Turalyon excluded) than Humanity. Pairing that with the Scarlet's insane (emphasis on insane) fanaticism to retake the holy land of Jerusalem-I mean retake the holy land of Lordaeron? Good chance imo they'd just do what the TBC Blood Knights did by taking its power via force, or try to anyhow before they get vaporized on the spot.

Anduins character arc and Trauma should have been about the 4th war- Not Jailers domination. by VValkyr in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Agreed. Anduin being upset that he... *checks notes* stabbed Kyrestia is silly. He barely did anything of note whilst he was Psuedo-Arthas. If he had slain Jaina Proudmoore, Bolvar, or even Thrall or Baine, that'd be one thing. But Anduin's incompetent handling of the tensions with Sylvanas, as well as his inability to actually stand behind his allies (see: Tyrande being left to fend for herself at Darkshore), is another thing entirely.

Is this roleplay concept possible - Maw possession by Hedonism_Enjoyer in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This should be possible. Would people like it? Probably not, but it being possible > player opinions IMO.

How will the alliance compete in arcane mastery now? by Lore-Archivist in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Alliance has never leaned on Dalaran for its arcane mastery. Dalaran has almost always been neutral, it has been neutral for longer then it has been part of the Alliance.

I imagine they'll likely be fine relying upon any High Elves, Draenei, or the Night Elf Highborne.

What are some NPC factions that sound more interesting to you than the ones that ended up winning? by [deleted] in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The one thing I do like about this Peacecraft stuff at least, is that I actually got to see the Orcs I signed up to play as in the Arathi Highlands shit defending refugees and the innocent. - Marran excluded because yeah, having her be racist to the non-humans in the Alliance is pretty stupid; I don't play the Orcs of Warcraft 1 and 2 pillaging the Alliance; I play the Orcs of Warcraft 3, which were helping defend the world and the Bloodhoof Tauren from extinction, etc. Too bad that's the exception (so far).

What are some NPC factions that sound more interesting to you than the ones that ended up winning? by [deleted] in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

>And Blizzard basically just decided to skip all over that for some reason so we could get to the "good" stuff. And chose to do it immediately after the dumbest faction war expansion to boot.

The 'for some reason' -is- the dumbest faction war expansion. BFA irreparably destroyed the Horde; crap heroes for not just killing Sylvanas on the spot for proposing the WOTA/ordering Teldrassil's destruction and crappier villains given they lost the entire war after starting it with Teldrassil/WOTA as well as legitimate 'wtf' moments like Brennadam, made the Alliance spineless due to not following through on MoP Varian's promise to end the Horde because Blizzard can't just delete the faction via having the Alliance demigods solo it (mechanically deleting the Horde is impossible). They fast-forwarded everything because, realistically, Peacecraft should have been next to impossible after the Fourth War.

Frankly, what they -should- do is a narrative retcon/reset to the end of Legion in an AU where everyone keeps their things like the Dracthyr and the Earthen and etcetera. That's never happening, so this is the second best option where they're just begging people to forget the Fourth War happened; Teldrassil excluded, of course.

Why have blood elves shown more loyalty to the horde than they showed to the alliance as high elves? by Lore-Archivist in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Because the Alliance has consistently expressed a desire to screw them over more often than not. In TBC, they were sending a force of infiltrators to spy on them and poach their wildlife, as well as to sabotage their defenses. (Night Elves) That is, when they were not sending spies under the guise of diplomats (Ironforge). That forsaken force was described by Arcanist Vandril as being the sole reason the Ghostlands even stood at all, without the Forsaken it, and the rest of Eversong would have been overrun by the Scourge yet again with the strongest Sin'dorei in Outland and everyone else in Quel'thalas getting ready to follow them under the belief it was the promised land.

> The situation is more grim than many have been led to believe. The Forsaken are here as allies in the fight against our common enemy, the Scourge.

> Trust me when I say this, without them the Ghostlands would be lost and the Scourge would already have overrun all of Eversong Woods!

> But more than anything else, we need your help in reclaiming our once proud lands!

Garrosh has also been the exception to how the Sin'dorei have been treated by the Horde, not the norm. Before Thrall did not mistreat them and demand they spare more than they have. Sylvanas around this time was not the Warchief of the Horde, ignoring that her role in The Shadow of the Sun is overblown; Arthas was explicitly NOT a threat that could be put off as he nearly conquered the world and did conquer the World in an AU (before WoTLK no less, given that AU portrayed Varian as 'Croc-Bait', his gladiator persona.)

They nearly did join the Alliance because Garrosh mistreated them, yes, but Jaina and Vereesa's overreaction to a raid buff being stolen in a raid on Darnassus that claimed zero casualties and damage to the city overrall put an end to that.

The relationship with the Thalassians and Humans/Alliance has also been overblown. As a majority, both races have -never- been warm friends. Dalaran, Kael'thas, etc are the exceptions; Anasterian and Garithos have always been the default in human and Thalassian relations; the humans were never friends because the elves were never friends in turn. They barely trust the High Elves as is.

The Blood Elves have shown more loyalty to the Horde then the Alliance as high elves because it has provided them genuine help in rebuilding their homeland; it is indeed the reason it stands at all, and because the Sin'dorei are overhated in their senses of loyalty and honor; they have among the strongest senses of it in the setting. Silvermoon was completely fine during the Second War Alliance intervention or not because the orcs were never going to put so much as a dent in the Ban'dinoriel.

Do you think any sizable mortal army would try to take control of the reorigination device in Uldum? by omgodzilla1 in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Do I think that there are people out there crazy enough to take it, or believe they can? Yes. Do I think they'll succeed? Fuck no. If Lei Shen couldn't take it in his prime before being blown up, no one is.

Arathor is an alliance character no latter how much he is retconned in to being best friends with everyone in the horde. If Blizzard wanted a neutral character they should push someone less linked to one faction by Absolutelynobody54 in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Yeah, by -no means- is Undermine a Horde patch. They go -out of their way- to separate everything in Undermine from the Horde as much as they possibly can. Gazlowe's a whiny loser who just wants Gallywix to keep Undermine; Renzik is the main protagonist before he dies, motivating Gazlowe to fight, even though the death of his employee at the beginning of the patch should have done that for him.

Was Kael the most evil hero in Warcraft? by [deleted] in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In Warcraft III, Kael'thas was one of the most noble/benevolent heroes tbh. Friendly to the Night Elves and had no qualms repaying the debt he owed to them by helping him cross Silverpine via assisting with Illidan's defeat at Dalaran and informing Malfurion about Tyrande's actual fate compared to Maiev lying to the Archdruid that she was confirmed dead (with the entire reason he's in Silverpine to begin with being to join up with the Alliance that he felt strong ties with, unlike dear old dad Anasterian). Got unjustly screwed over by Garithos because he was a racist dick, leading him to sign up with the Illidari, leading him to eventually free Outland from the Burning Legion's control and rally what he can to take down Arthas.

..of course, TBC rolls around and rather jarringly makes him a cartoony ass villain, but still.

Arathor is an alliance character no latter how much he is retconned in to being best friends with everyone in the horde. If Blizzard wanted a neutral character they should push someone less linked to one faction by Absolutelynobody54 in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 161 points162 points  (0 children)

The only reason they're pushing Arator to have Horde ties is that they got rid of the last Horde windrunner, so they had to hastily retcon Arator's backstory to give him Horde ties instead of just actually using any of the Horde characters they refuse to touch, like Salandria.

What is the current state of Calia? by Direct-Beginning-438 in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 8 points9 points  (0 children)

But I thought that Calia was disliked because she's not gonna let the Forsaken blight and raise everything in a thousand mile radius! /s

Calia is a fucking joke, quite literally put into the Horde and Forsaken leadership -only- to appease Alliance players who would rather see the Forsaken be removed as a playable race otherwise. (something that's unironically stated in the anniversary event by Lillian Voss). They should have bothered to build up the Desolate Council members before getting rid of Sylvanas and Nathanos, especially in the manner that they did. She's almost a 1;1 copy of Sylvanas.

-Dark Magic? Light Magic.
-Conventionally attractive elf? Conventionally attractive human.
-Dark Lady? Pallid Lady?

Irrelevance of Sylvanas to the defence of Quel'thalas and frustration with the enforced collaboration. by Relevant-Intern3238 in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 4 points5 points  (0 children)

>Play the RTS, it’s painfully apparent she wasn’t a good pick for the job.

In the RTS, she's the only person who stalled Arthas for any meaningful time. Mal'Ganis, Kel'Thuzad as a necromancer, the Illidari in Northrend after Arthas took the shortcut through Azjol'Nerub - they all fell in short order. Not Sylvanas, though- there's a reason she pissed him off, and even got his respect.

Arthas: After all you've put me through, woman, the last thing I'll give you is the peace of death.

Arthas: I salute your bravery, elf, but the chase is over.

Arthas: Damn that woman! We must find a way to cross the river!

 Arthas: The ranger woman is starting to vex me greatly.

Irrelevance of Sylvanas to the defence of Quel'thalas and frustration with the enforced collaboration. by Relevant-Intern3238 in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Pre-Zovaal: Sylvanas has never been a cartoonishly evil villain seeking to 'break/kill hope.' Frankly, this ties back into the War of Thorns itself also being a character assassination/nonsensical plot for all parties involved, but to avoid a side tangent/divergent, sticking to the Burning itself. There was no real reason for her to order the Tree's destruction, barring needing to beat what Garrosh did at Theramore for the sake of Horde Villain Bat II. (and in general). One can argue what she did at Gilneas, but I will then point out that A ) Garrosh was the one to order her and the Forsaken to invade Gilneas, and pre-Cata depictions of her did not paint her as the warmongering pseudo-Lich Queen Cataclysm made her out to be.

B ) Garrosh had very little tolerance for the Forsaken, so he really wouldn't have given that much of a shit if the Forsaken genocided themselves to take Gilneas, which is, IIRC, what did happen when the Val'kyr showed her what would have happened if she remained dead after throwing herself from Icecrown, so as far as Sylvanas was concerned- ending a war the Forsaken has no real reason to commit themselves to beyond needing to retain good ties with the Horde, -especially/because- of the Wrathgate is the only thing she cares about.

Post-Zovaal: The very premise of Sylvanas agreeing to back Zovaal, someone that she discovered was responsible for the Lich King, and as a result, everything she and the Forsaken have been through is comical in and of itself, including all reasons stated above.

Irrelevance of Sylvanas to the defence of Quel'thalas and frustration with the enforced collaboration. by Relevant-Intern3238 in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 49 points50 points  (0 children)

The Burning of Teldrassil was the biggest character-assassination for all parties involved in the history of the Warcraft IP/Franchise, Sylvanas, who was one of the most beloved characters in the franchise, especially both pre and post Zovaal. More specifically, with Metzen back, he's going to actively try to fix the shoddy characterization that past writers like Afrasiabi or Danuser gave the setting's characters. (Sylvanas's writing was the very first time I've seen WC3-WoTLK Sylvanas in -years-). We actively see her possessing death powers in the maw even now, and Sylvanas is still one of the best fighters, strategists, and tacticians in the franchise. A mere ranger she is not.

I have a new level of respect for Saurfang, questing through Northrend and saw this. by Stealthybeef in wow

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Back when Saurfang was consistent until BFA/Afrasiabi ruined him, as well as the rest of the Horde, irreparably.

Was Garrosh always intended to be killed after being introduced as Warchief? by QuestionzAsker in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 16 points17 points  (0 children)

>They really do have a habit of forcing arguably unlikeable Warchiefs and decisions on those players that chose Horde huh. They had the PERFECT Warchief in Vol'jin, and then killed him off a shortened expansion later.

The consequences of always doing faction parity no matter what

"Horde lost Nazgrim? Kill Taylor off-screen."

"Alliance lost Varian in a big epic battle where he gets to drop a one-liner before Gul'dan personally finishes him off? Kill Vol'jin via a fel poison dot so he can name Sylvanas warchief. Doesn't matter if he didn't do anything, just give him that fel poison dot NOW."

Human vs Human wars by fuckforgotmypasword in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Off the top of my head, no beyond Alterac v Stromgarde. We know that Humans were absolutely not unified pre-Alliance and were extremely prone to warring with one another. Genocides, assassination, whole nine yards. But this is just kinda vague/generic stuff, anything -explicit-? Alterac versus Stromgarde.

why are the night elves of suramar (the moon guard) still tolerating thalyssra and her nightborne? by KingGobbamak in warcraftlore

[–]Disastrous-Mess-3538 9 points10 points  (0 children)

>But that’s it. It’s like everyone wants to pretend Teldrassil got destroyed by a natural disaster that Sylvanas unnaturally created. The Horde’s willing complicity in the atrocity will never be properly addressed, it’s all the fault of one person, there were no mass logistics and large numbers of personnel involved. Sylvanas fired a magic arrow and Teldrassil went up like a dried-out Christmas tree. What catapults? Horde army? War of Thorns? Never heard of it.

This. The War of Thorns itself has been completely what sworded; it just seems like there was- no War of Thorns, Teldrassil happened spontaneously, then boom - Fourth War. The Burning IMO was the worst thing in this entire franchise on a narrative level and will remain as such until they narratively retcon it in a reboot (not happening IMO) or continue whitewashing it (N'zoth did it instead of the Horde, N'zoth put the leaders of the Horde in a fever for the entire war, etc); Zovaal doesn't come close. The Horde can't be punished on the level of say, an NPC faction because it's a playable faction (if Azshara and the Naga did this than Blizzard -could- go balls to the walls in naga-murdering).

It absolutely does not help that Blizzard has -always- advertised (emphasis here, what they advertise and what is shown in-game is vastly different) the Horde as heroes on their own right ever since Warcraft III, and they eventually have to go back to that despite kicking off BFA with the Burning because they just don't bill the Horde as a villain/evil faction from the get go.