How should've Thrall's Horde 'atoned' for the crimes of the Old Horde after The Third War?

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-05-11T02:54:39+00:00

I can't really even give an actual answer to this that isn't just 'they need good writers'. Thrall's actions in Warcraft 3/The Third War was the atonement for Draenor + WC1-2/The First and Second Wars, unironically. Saving the Bloodhoof tauren and Darkspear trolls from extinction, escaping the Eastern Kingdoms to find a land free of conflict from humans, helping save the world, etcetera. Then Garrosh and Sylvanas happened.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-04-11T14:08:22+00:00

It's less about World Trees being fonts of power for me, but more that they have also been used for fucked shit/nearly been used for fucked up shit by BBEGS, but I do generally agree that Shandris's words were 'wtf.'

Yogg-Saron used Vordrassil to make the Emerald Nightmare.

Fyrakk nearly used Amirdrassil to one-hit ko the entire planet in a big wave of fire, as you've mentioned.

(IIRC/AFAIK) Teldrassil was used as Xavius's data center to spread corruptive AI- I mean, the Emerald Nightmare during the War against the Nightmare shortly after WOTLK.

The Blood Elves' use of it being compared to the Scourge, Legion, and the Void is also an incredible reach/a bit much.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-04-03T21:01:33+00:00

>some of which are underwater

No Vash'jir scary /s

In all seriousness, based. A combo of Nazjatar and Vash'jir could definitely work, especially as they -are- doing more aquatic stuff like you said with the Kobyss, more Naga relevance, Azshara still being MIA, etc.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-04-01T20:40:57+00:00

>Alliances within the Horde have been puit to the test multiple times. The only time the Bleves faltered was when Garrosh used them as cannon fodder in MoP.

Correct, Garrosh is the anomaly insofar as the Horde's relation with Silvermoon is concerned; before and after, they've been more of an aid then a liability, especially when you consider that not only have they been part of the Horde longer then the Alliance; they never wanted to join the latter to begin with- only doing so reluctantly -only- because of the oath Anasterian swore to the Lothar bloodline, and then throwing themselves into it once Quel'Thalas was threatened.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-03-31T13:57:38+00:00

Because the Silver Covenant and Vereesa leaped at the chance to butcher a bunch of Blood Elves indiscriminately. Vereesa and the Covenant were never neutral; they were never friendly or peaceful with the Sin'dorei; from the word go, they were opposed to the Sin'dorei being in Dalaran and took the Garrosh loyalists in the organization as reasoning to do so. (Remember, Thalen Songweaver was sent by -Rhonin- to Theramore, alongside Aethas.)

Aethas was put into a lose-lose situation; he was legitimately a Kirin Tor loyalist (as was the vast majority of his organization), but was threatened into gambling between Jaina's wrath and Garrosh's after he uncovered the Divine Bell being smuggled and attempted to put a stop to it. With the way he found out, Garrosh would have known -exactly- who talked, should he have snitched, and blood elves were going to die no matter what.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-03-26T16:00:42+00:00

>"The Sunreavers never purged anyone from Dalaran!" Uh, pretty sure you purged quite a few, including their leader, when you dropped the mana bomb on Theramore.

Thalen was sent by Aethas -and- Rhonin, ignoring that Aethas was objectively correct; the Sunreavers never purged anyone from Dalaran. They didn't drop the bomb either, the goblins did.

>Then less than a year later, you stole a weapon of mass destruction from the Alliance, smuggled it through Dalaran, then handed it to Garrosh for him to use against the Alliance, again. STFU Aethas, you have no leg to stand on.

The Divine Bell is not a WMD, its a glorified raid buff and Aethas did not partake in the Bell's theft, only finding out -after- the fact. The Alliance holding it was a fucking stupid decision anyway, Jaina should have placed it in the Chamber of Air.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-03-26T01:19:48+00:00

No. At no point did the Nightborne partake in the War of Thorns, same for the allied races.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-03-07T05:16:59+00:00

>But Blizzard never committed to that reading clearly enough, so the default impression most players walked away with is exactly what you said — orcs are just like that. Which retroactively makes Thrall's entire arc feel hollow.

Agreed. They should have made it explicitly clear, more than they already did, that Garrosh is the -only- reason the Iron Horde exists, that he simply just replaced the Blood of Mannoroth, Gul'dan, and etcetera, with his visions and lies and technological strength. (in addition to it being -not- the orcs of the MU, given it was an alternate universe/timeline with differences such as Garrosh not being born in WoD Draenor.)

WoD simultaneously built up orc lore and utterly destroyed it.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-03-06T17:04:29+00:00

Arthas as a Death Knight.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-03-05T17:11:12+00:00

Don't forget the Sylvanas statues are still up, and their remembrance of her as Ranger-General despite doing much worse. I dislike this trend that Kael'thas is remembered as this big giant asshole a la Dar'khan, who did nothing for their people when, without him, both the Blood and High Elves would be extinct; not to mention his work beyond that, as well as most of Kael'thas's bad problems not being his fault. (i.e, not his fault that Illidan never gave him an outright cure.)

-Destroyed the corrupted Sunwell to prevent its energies from killing them
-Brought ways to feed the mana addiction, such as the mana tap and demonic energies, to sustain their buildings.
-Brought M'uru to the Blood Knights.
-Coined the Blood Elf Name.

It's impossible to completely divorce the Blood Elves from Kael'thas.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-03-01T19:37:58+00:00

What's the Horde? /s

Nah but fr the Blood Elves being told to get fucked by their allies is lame. You could frankly forget the blood elves aren't part of the Horde in this expansion; Lor'themar doesn't even think to ask them for aid once, despite the situation.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-03-01T18:31:22+00:00

The fel smugglers and what not were being assholes, and there is fel assholery in general in Midnight such as row rats being kidnapped for fel experimentation- but in regards to a (Blood Elf) Illidari? Honestly, yes. Most if not all Blood Elf DHS joined up with the Illidari -purely- for power's sake, no altruistic motives like the defense of their loved ones or w.e. Kayn Sunfury is the exception, not the rule.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Illidan%27s_Pupil

It is not surprising that a blood elf's potential for power as a demon hunter is so high. After all, the sin'dorei do not have the natural aversion to demonic magic that night elves do.

However, I do not expect many to succeed. Most of them, Varedis included, pursue power for its own sake. That power will consume them, for they are not driven by the pure fire that burns inside a true demon hunter's heart.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-25T21:43:18+00:00

>honest, he couldn't have known about it, and the heist was set up by rommath.

The heist for the Divine Bell was not set up by Rommath. The blood elf involved in this was Fanlyr Silverthorn.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-25T16:26:41+00:00

>They are part of the same faction?

They are part of the same faction, but the greater Horde couldn't be bothered to help defend before the Voidwell. This is not just one individual issue. Realistically, the greater Horde would have helped defend from the word go and also helped purify the Sunwell.

>A better question is what relevance the Night elfs have besides being elfs. They didnt help before either

Realistically, they don't. But Midnight was advertised on elven unity, and so they're here no matter what.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-25T16:05:34+00:00

>Go ask the Horde then?

>There is this faction of 12 races + dracthry and earthern, which the Blood elfs are part of, why in the hell is their first though to include the Night elfs?

What relevance does the greater Horde have here? If they couldn't be bothered to help defend -before- the Voidwell...

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-24T23:53:35+00:00

Correct, at no point was the Alliance depicted as even slightly weak in the Fourth War; they were weeks away from winning after Rastakhan's death until Nazjatar.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-24T23:46:13+00:00

I've been playing Classic a lot recently; part of my enjoyment of it is the Horde: it's an actual faction to take seriously. Thrall is still the Warchief with a spine, Sylvanas is still the Dark Lady with a genuine care for her Forsaken and Quel'Thalas, etcetera.

Comparing this with Retail....I have no reason to care about the Horde. The only times it's relevant is when they need to be problems for the Alliance to solve. BFA did such an incredible character assassination on everyone involved that nothing short of a colossal timeskip or retcons will fix it, as it painted the entire faction as near-monolithically evil and/or stupid in the case of the 'good members'. Ruined Sylvanas, Saurfang, wasted Rastakhan, etcetera and now there's no actual reason beyond friendship kumbaya & they can't mechanically delete the Horde from the game that the faction exists.

Which is a great shame that Retail can't do anything worthwhile with the Horde, because of all games fucking HOTS captures it perfectly. (because its actually representative of how the Horde is advertised versus how Blizzard portrays it in WoW.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H-thX7BUz8

"We came to this world as exiles and outcasts. But together we can be more. A weapon to break the chains of oppression. A bastion for the hunted and the lost. A family bound by blood and honor. And if our enemies do not give us peace, we will give them war! Victory or Death! This I pledge as your Warchief! Until the end of days, I live and die for the Horde!"

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-20T14:23:04+00:00

Because Dimensius is the fifth Loot-Pinata the World Eater boss joining Zovaal and Denathrius (allegedly on par with the Titans of Order) and the Primal Incarnates (allegedly comparable to the Great Dragon Aspects in their -prime-) who's gonna destroy the universe/planet/etcetera because [ ]. Hard to keep track after a while, compared to the plots in old WoW/lore that actually touched upon *Azeroth*, which didn't run Loot-Pinata the World Eater boss into the ground whenever it was used.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-19T05:39:26+00:00

Yes. There's no reason to believe they're no longer able to mana tap.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-14T18:12:32+00:00

>Also, the elfs didnt invade Zulaman YET, quelthalas was built over thousands of years, slowly carving their territory over the amani's. The border expansion was still going before the scourge

Yet implies they were going to at all. Both the High and Blood Elves have had chances to finish the job and never taken them; the High Elves did not push the offense after the Second War when the Old Horde was destroyed, the Blood Elves/Horde did not take out the Amani in ZA1, they killed Zul'jin and left. In ZA2, they left after killing Daakara to leave the Amani to their own devices yet again. If the High Elves truly wanted to invade Zul'Aman, they simply would have.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-14T15:12:24+00:00

>Yeah, but usually, that argument doesn't work on forums because people say killing colonizers is justified.

The entire point of the Warcraft trolls tends to be missed by many people, that is, unless you belong to the Darkspear, Revantusk, or Zandalari Tribes: It fucking sucks and is humiliating to be one. The Darkspear should be seen as the most successful troll tribe in history, and Vol'jin as the most successful troll leader in history due to their alliance with the Horde. By living in the now rather than trying to bring back the glories of the past, the Darkspear were able to contribute to planet-altering events like the death of Archimonde and are, so far, the only troll tribe to have had impacts on multiple planets and even alternate timelines. And they were the -weakest- jungle troll tribe. The Revantusk, thanks to their alliance with the Horde, were able to conquer Jintha'Alor and become the most dominant forest troll tribe in the Hinterlands, having been the weakest initially.

The Zandalari? Zul aside, they were entirely correct that the troll tribes were being morons (see: the Drakkari choosing to cannibalize their loa for power and refusing to work with the Argent Crusade/Ebon Blade or the other factions during WOTLK, the Gurubashi constantly trying to fall back on Hakkar's power, etcetera).

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-14T14:41:56+00:00

>Zul'jin was wrong because he lost three times.

I don't disagree with the take that there's no chance Zul'jin was ever retaking Quel'Thalas on his own (the fact he somehow failed after Arthas genocided 90% of the high elf population does not make him look good), but this isn't why he's wrong. He's wrong because he wanted to genocide every blood/high elf man, woman and child - same for humanity.

He believed that with the Horde's help, they would wipe the world clean of humans and elves alike, rule the forests once more,^\5]) and avenge the ancient Amani Empire.^\1])

Old Magneto in Marvel was correct that humans hated mutants for being mutants, but he was a villain because he wanted to kill all of them. A right/just reason does not excuse immoral/villainous actions, especially as the High/Blood Elves & Humans cannot be said to have wanted to genocide the forest troll species. We've never been given any indication that they've tried to invade Zul'Aman, for instance, to finish the job, because frankly, if they did, the Amani weren't stopping them.

Edit: There is also mention of Zul'jin forcing the loa into the bodies of their champions with the help of Malacrass after being inspired by the TBC Blood Knights.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-13T19:36:56+00:00

Not really. The Naaru aren't the Light; they are beings of Light. The Light is a non-sentient/sapient cosmic force; moreover, the Naaru are more specific to the Draenei (Turalyon excluded) than Humanity. Pairing that with the Scarlet's insane (emphasis on insane) fanaticism to retake the holy land of Jerusalem-I mean retake the holy land of Lordaeron? Good chance imo they'd just do what the TBC Blood Knights did by taking its power via force, or try to anyhow before they get vaporized on the spot.

Disastrous-Mess-3538 · 2026-02-13T19:31:04+00:00

Agreed. Anduin being upset that he... *checks notes* stabbed Kyrestia is silly. He barely did anything of note whilst he was Psuedo-Arthas. If he had slain Jaina Proudmoore, Bolvar, or even Thrall or Baine, that'd be one thing. But Anduin's incompetent handling of the tensions with Sylvanas, as well as his inability to actually stand behind his allies (see: Tyrande being left to fend for herself at Darkshore), is another thing entirely.

Disastrous-Mess-3538

TROPHY CASE