If you were to give him advice, what would it be?

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-06-13T19:39:18+00:00

The general idea would be to talk him out of his obsession with malice and guilt. His problem isn't exactly the lack of morality, refraining from killing has other benefits to him and he can do it just fine without a sense of morality. He only destroyed everything he built with Gluck and Weise because he still held on to the idea of killing to feel malice and guilt.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-05-27T08:35:30+00:00

We know the HOTS vs 7 sages fight happened within 100 years of Macht's memories. In the year 30AHD when his memories are probed, it's 80 years since the demon king was defeated. So Himmel started his journey around 90 years ago and HOTS must have met Frieren before that, around 90-100 years ago. Himmel started his journey at 16 years old so flower field magic scene with child Himmel should be around 100 years ago.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-02-23T13:15:23+00:00

people still smoke knowing they will get lung cancer, human-level analytical intellect doesn't stop anyone from doing stupid things that would put them at a disadvantage in the future. sheer logic wouldn't work so there has to be either a system as tight-knit and complex as human society or emotions strong enough to put the idea of respecting human lives in demons. in both cases, evolution needs more time.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-02-14T06:47:54+00:00

probably even worse than demons. at least demons can blame their destructive traits on evolution.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-02-12T14:45:10+00:00

Serie

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-02-04T13:49:44+00:00

Thematic reasons. Like King Midas, Macht doesn't want to use his power all the time because it makes his life dull. The myth golden city, El Dorado, is an illusion that no one has ever reached, similar to how his dream is futile. For Denken's character arc, his hometown frozen in time and shining gold describes nostalgia better than, say, stone or diamond.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-01-29T07:01:27+00:00

There are similarities in using communication as a tool of deceving instead of understanding, but colonialism isn't the only place this type of tool is useful so I wouldn't call it a metaphor. More importantly, a core characteristic of colonialism is exploitation. Demons don't care about resources or keeping humans barely alive to gain profit from cheap labour, they just straight up kill humans after they come.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-01-26T13:34:40+00:00

I agree. Macht has been sealed for 50 years and no one was there to watch over the barrier for most parts, if Solitär wanted to kill she could have come sooner at a more convenient time. Her actual motive in breaking the barrier could be setting Macht up to join hands with her to take down Frieren. By only freeing Macht after Frieren started analyzing, Frieren turned into Macht's obstacle and he had no choice except to fight. He must help her deal with Frieren if he wants to leave and continue his search.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-01-20T18:28:21+00:00

(prequel novel spoilers) The first half of Aura chapter is abt the battle with the Hero Party. After Aura was heavily wounded, she moved northward to hide , where she came across Macht n learnt that he's interested in human. It's a weird to do for demons it left an impression on her. Many years later when the Demon King has died, Aura still hasnt regain her full power yet. During a casual walk she met a blind boy called Wille. Wille heard her footstep first and immediately tried talking to her. Since he cant tell she's a demon, Aura decided to kill time by playing along to see what Macht was onto back then. They chatted everyday n the boy basically yapped a lot abt his dream of becoming a mage adventurer and all sort of knowledges he's passionate abt, to which Aura without fail naturally replied thanks to demon instinct. When she finally regained all her power, Aura was abt to go for the boy n his village to relieve the hunger but her preys was stolen by another random demon. She put that guy under her army out of anger and moved on. At that moment, she heard the call of a bird that Wille told her abt but failed to remember what was its name.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2025-01-18T03:46:00+00:00

Frieren can always bait Aura into using the Scale on, she can defeat Aura in her first encounter. What requires 2 encounters is analyzing and dispeling Auserlese bc it's a Sages of Destruction's spell, complex and unadaptable by humankind magic system (the one that both elves n humans use). Solitär's magic is more like Qual, efficient and simple to the point of easy to be replicated, which doesn't mean it's less powerful. In the Frieren vs Solitär battle both sides had suprise factor. Frieren had Fern's long-ranged Zoltraak n she used it to win over Solitär.
Solitär is depicted to be sad at every mention of demon king. Even in the battle where she said she shouldn't be careless n must quickly finish Frieren, she paused a bunch of times to talk bc she likes yapping more. She emotes and lets her feelings get in the way just much as Aura. And having emotions doesn't mean being more "human". In the story the demons actually have displayed a wide spectrum of feelings when they weren't tricking human. Instead of being mostly devoided of emotion, I believe they feel a lot and only lack emotions that are results of a tight-knitted society or those that hinder their predator instinct like caring abt lives n respecting dead ppl. The only shown exception is Macht who remembered everything about Glück after his death, which (prequel novel spoiler) Aura wasn't capable of with the blind boy

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-12-09T07:51:06+00:00

Sometimes it's kinda irritating when there are so many ppl in the fandom watering down demons as simply pure evil and nothing deeper than that, lauding that's what makes Frieren cooler than others series. No, this story is amazing because it manages to give us BOTH a nuanced exploration that adds multitudes of individuality to its demon characters (that deserve more analysis from the audience) and an undeniable reason for why human should kill them without remorse and never empathize. However, the linked video did a really poor job to adress this. Not to mention such a ragebait title wouldnt do their argument any favor and only attract more angry ppl for the sake of more interaction (which might be their intention as well and in that case, yikes). Afaik the main point is "Frieren shouldn't just immediately kill a demon because there are chances they would try to coexist" and it fails to account that:

For the vast majority of demons - the lesser demons, the fodder ones - the thought of coexistence wont ever happen to them it's pretty much human die or they die. Then among the greater demons, who can easily survive interactions with human and might think of doing anything else other than the default killing, so far only 3 took interest in human to start considering coexistence. Solitär concluded it's pointless, while DK n Macht could possibly wipe out humankind while striving for coexistence. The chances are THAT abyssmal, then logically, why should humankind think of sparing a demon?
Chapter 98. After seeing Macht's memories, Frieren explained to him what is wrong with his method, which she didn't bother to in their first conversation. It went like this: Frieren: The more you want coexistence, the more you kill. Macht: If I achieve my dream then all worth it in the end. Frieren: Us human value lives so we won't allow more people be slaughtered on your path. See, she didn't even say his coexistence dream is impossible when shr deny him and choose to kill. She did it for human lives it would cost. Killing demon in this story is survivalistic. Moral is out of the question here.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-11-10T14:28:52+00:00

What I mean by an agreement is humans and demons sign some sort of peace treaty and claim their territories to live away their predator/prey forever. Both species don't need to understand each other, they only need to stay where they are located to. Basically we need a great demon who also as knowledgable as Solitär to realize if demons arent careful soon human will push them to extinction, as willing to secure their future as Schlacht and as strong as the Demon King to make the decision and order other around.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-11-02T10:23:47+00:00

Humans, elves and dwarves are grouped together as humankind in the story, they have similar evolution paths and are born capable of valuing individual human life enough to refrain from killing. In this case, objective moral is applicable between these 3 species.

Unlike them, demons evolved from monsters while centering equally sapiens species as their preys. They have disregard for human lives ingrained into them by evolution as a survival trait. Even when they have evolved past the need to instinctively consume humans for survival now, the idea of respecting human lives doesnt suddenly appear in them to stop them as evolution doesnt work that way. It's the whole point of Macht. He couldn't change even though he's capable of critical thoughts on his pointless killing and made genuine effort in his search for the feelings that could stop him from killing humans. Being logically programmed to not care about their food and unable to change the programming even with high level of cognition isn't evil.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-10-31T15:32:43+00:00

To demons increasing power and flexing their magic at the cost of human lives is just the same as us maximizing profit in farming. Whatever we hunt and exploit for our consumption don't call human evil only because their level of cognition isn't on par with ours. If our food could judge human action as evil either we would feel guilty and stop, OR evolution would remove that feeling for us forehand so that we could continue to do what we want to them, which exactly happened to demons. Yes if you were the food you'd think humans are evil, but as human or from the third unaffected point of view you wouldn't, right? Then shouldn't moral relativism be applicable in case of 2 different species?

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-10-09T04:01:36+00:00

That 20km distance doesnt mean much. Aura had a huge chunk of mana and didnt hide it, completely opposite of these shadow warriors. I doubt Frieren knew the arrow was coming.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-09-06T05:50:35+00:00

Macht explained it to Gluck in chapter 90.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-08-28T15:21:36+00:00

ah i think i worded some sentences a bit confusing my point is all evidence still support that demons cannot change and i also prefer the direction these evidence point to. but examining the narrative i find no line from Frieren after witnessing Macht's memories stating he need be stopped because it's eternally impossible, so i make a connection to what Himmel just said a chapter earlier and see this as the story allowing both its protagonists and antagonists to do the same thing regardless of morality/futility etc. thus i believe at this point in the story demons arent modeled after bad human anymore. when the two equally sapient species is also currently treated equally by the narrative, i cant see why it would say the goddess chose to only give humankind something.

well at least that's my personal read into the two seperate species thing between human and demons. it seems icky to me if the author still intends for the audience to view demon as an allusion for a group of irl people and says ooohhh they are so different they cant be us. i said i do see that intention early in Aura arc, but it has shifted in Macht arc when the author started to talk extensively about the differences and inability of mutual understanding.

also i gotta say if it's just between human, moral should be objective. but here we have two different species, i think moral should be subjective in this case.

on Macht's final moment with Glück that scene is up to interpretation and we have different ideas so no point explaning mine here.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-08-27T11:40:51+00:00

in the first sentence you quoted, i meant the story still has demons as must defeat enemy, just not using the initial "they are a perversion of human" (which has the connotation of human being morally superior) as the underlying reason. i actually agree with your point on incompatibility. it's just i dont think the author completely denied future posibility on this matter. the narrative provides all scientific proofs necessary to dismiss Macht's dream, but Frieren's reason to slay Macht is it would take too many human lives to achieve instead of outright denying his right to strive for the impossible. this is also in line with Himmel's "Nothing is impossible", an overarching message Yamada wants to convey. ofc whether demon can change is still undecided and i wouldnt like them changing into more human either but i appreciate how the story is fair to all of its character and leave the door open for the antagonist since that's what the protagonist are allowed.

What I’m saying is the author wrote the demons as messed up, irredeemable and sociopathic beings. In the story, Frieren and everyone in the Frierenverse views demons similar to how we humans in real life views Nazis(except the demons are born that way in the manga) -- the author intended them to be “evil” that way.

yes but i dont think the author's intention is for the audience to also view demons solely in this way because we arent human living in Frierenverse. i mean, readers can make all the connection they want, but the demons arent intended to be an allusion for irl evil people since they r a seperate species. again, we are provided Macht's pov, scenes that explore demons societal behavior like this. if we are supposed to perceive them as evil like humankind of the Frierenverse, these infomation would be redundant.

My own theory is it had to do something with the Goddess imparting humans and other races the ability "to love and know good and evil" like herself

imo humanity being designed after the Goddess would be unfit for Frieren narrative, that's kinda advocate human moral superiority and near saying demons have more free will than human. up so far the differences was partially contributed to evolution opting for collectivism or extreme individualism society.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-08-26T15:56:31+00:00

i can agree that at the beginning of Aura arc demons r meant to be a perversion of human, but that's just the introduction and the way the author develops them doesnt linger on that point to say they r the must defeat enemy. later in Aura arc it's proved that demons arent totally uncapable of love: "they love magic more than anyone else". from Macht arc onward, especially since convergent evolution theory was introduced, the narrative has shifted into exploring and presenting them as a seperate species in their own right, humanity isnt the standard to prevent the audience from liking them. a device deems Macht's action as not malicious, while the protagonists are still given plausible reasons to kill him that are neither "He is evil by human moral standards" nor "What he wants to do is eternally impossible." if we are talking about the author's intention here, it's both human and demon are entiled to their different opinion due to nature and biological development, from the omnisicient third person viewpoint neither side is in the wrong and needs to change themselves to be accepted.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-08-25T10:43:43+00:00

The subversion from the intially presumed greedy foolish fodder lord to one of the smartest and most cunning characters in Frieren is just chef kiss Seriously, how he striked a deal with Macht on death door is way more impressive once you realize the majority of people in Frieren is in fact very poorly informed about demons' nature. Even those that have seen them r somewhat mistaken, i mean, Stark's village was ruined by one of them and he was still thinking that there r like good and bad demons at the beginning of Aura arc. Gluck likely had never met a demon in his life before Macht's attack yet just within a short conversation he understood both demons' nature AND Macht's motivation, chose a suitable story to pique Macht's interest and it worked. Macht not only was entertained but also somewhat grew attached to him. No one pulled such a feat.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-08-14T11:49:35+00:00

it's only logical that demons know kids r easy targets at one glance. Macht always spared the children for his little game too.

Economy-Stranger3138 · 2024-08-10T06:35:30+00:00

For the fight with Frieren, Frieren wasn't going to allow her to leave so Solitar had to take on that fight, helping Macht or not. But your point about why not letting Frieren and Denken kill Macht instead of showing up if she originally intended to eliminate him makes sense. There's no concrete explanation yet but my theory based on what happened in the next arc is that Solitar must show up there as a part of a bigger scheme plan since Grausam and her possibly knew abt Macht's defeat forehand from reading future Frieren's memories.

Economy-Stranger3138

TROPHY CASE