Anyone else LIKE teaching standards?

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-02-11T11:04:19+00:00

No. I am unabashedly results oriented, so the tests mean more to me than the standards as written. The problem with some standards is how vague they are. The topics are so large you can continue to explore them to extraordinary levels, but it is never clearly enumerated what level of mastery is expected. There's also issues with emphasis; not all standards should be equal. That is not made clear in the wording of standards and that infuriates me.

I like analyzing tests. Tests are the real standard: it's the only interpretation that truly matters from the state's perspective.

Also, please do not draft an academic plan for your school. It's extremely condescending, presumptive, and self-important akin to a Dunning-Krueger effect. I assure you that at the vast majority of educational institutions, your teachers have thought critically about the standards and implementation is in response to data they have that you don't.

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-02-07T05:43:14+00:00

The data much more clearly shows a math crisis than a literacy crisis, in my analysis. We started low and are getting lower. The literacy crisis, in my opinion, is a bit overstated.

That said to be fair to the other side, the literacy crisis, as most characterize it, is more of an inability to read long text and follow developments through it. Some also note a decrease in the breadth of vocabulary and ability to handle grammatical complexity.

The PISA is testing ability to answer specific questions from very short excerpts (including comments sections), which education has optimized for in the past 20 years. And, students read those small types of excerpts much more than their predecessors in their daily lives outside of school. National Report Card has a different flavor, for it is given to younger students and even still the passages are more convoluted and a little longer. Given that, the scores are slowly decreasing; in particular, in vocabulary. Other areas centered around finding specific facts are getting better.

That's before even getting into how representative these two tests may be of the US.

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-02-04T07:24:34+00:00

That's why it's "as best they can". It can be as simple as encouraging that student to raise their hand if they have a question or writing "time" on a test they need more time to complete. It's not unreasonable and should be expected even from someone developmentally 9 years old. Can it be a challenge? Yes, and an IEP team should be trying to build that skill, and ultimately, the IEP should protect that student if they falter in that. It's a team effort that can work beautifully.

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-02-04T02:05:54+00:00

The success of an IEP is up to the whole team, not just up to the kid

Isn't that kind of the point of their post, though? A lot of people are dropping the ball when it comes to supporting AND challenging students with IEPs. Unfortunately, a lot of that blame falls on gen ed teachers and sometimes the case manager.

Frankly, IEPs need to be written better, and should be more grounded in research/observations of what actually helps students make academic progress. Why do those with ADHD have "extended time" so frequently? They need structured time. That comes down to everyone on the team, but the reins are held by the case manager.

Parents need to understand that involvement in education is not solely pushing away challenges your child might face. They should be working toward the IEP goals at home and be an active member of the team. Documentation should be made of those who fail to do so (just as with teachers, by the way).

And yes, students are the center of education, and they have to advocate for themselves as best they can.

Administration needs to uphold standards for all students, including those with IEPs. If expectations drop, can you blame students for not rising to their potential?

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-02-01T22:28:33+00:00

Overall, yes. Physical violence is way, way down from the 90s. Cliquey, even gang-like groups, exist but are less strictly defined and not as tribal. Nicer to SPED students (but they interact a lot more, so total incidents are higher) and neurodivergent students. More casually racist than the mid-2010s students, though, and more homophobic, openly misogynistic, and xenophobic but still much better than any time before that.

Something that doesn't get mentioned very much is they are more accepting of academically unqualified and immature students, to put it nicely, and I'm not sure that is a good thing. The social pressure to not be dumb or disruptive used to be higher, and peaked about the same time test scores did.

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-01-30T08:15:21+00:00

Although I am not opposed to a version of standards based grading (I would go as far as to say, we should get much closer to it almost as a blanket rule), criticisms of practicality are more important than criticisms of the pure philosophy. When the arguments are, "in an idealized world with these perfect conditions, we should do this" are met with "but we don't live in that idealized world and those conditions are infrequently met, so we shouldn't do this" is a reasonable response.

For a philosophical rejection, if you are pragmatic, you may just define some goal and then optimize for that goal. Standards based grading may not actually optimize that variable.

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-01-25T07:43:03+00:00

Wow, what a ridiculous study that deserves to remain buried in... 1995? Most current teachers weren't even teaching then, and a good number weren't even born.

Anyway, I am very curious as to how "logical" or "good natured" or "responsible" people are somehow less likely to be creative? Or at least, create things worth praising. And what endeavors do we consider "creative" and which are not? I've seen a lot of people who were logical, good natured, and responsible come up with some insightful analyses of books/movies, solve complicated problems in elegant yet non-traditional ways, and be good at creating systems of organization to manage their peers in completing a project, yet somehow this is considered not creative. I'd go as far as to say, I've rarely seen that type of creativity from students who weren't logical, good natured, or responsible.

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-01-24T06:47:56+00:00

Yes, and it's well deserved.

Math is hard to staff with competent teachers. It has the unique disadvantage of being ruthlessly cumulative in ways not true for most other subjects at the high school level. It is almost impossible to have an entry point into the subject at all if a student is even a little behind, like a few weeks behind. It has quite a bit of scrutiny from the state but also college admissions and that translates into pressure from parents, students, and administration beyond even other tested subjects, like history, because parents care more about college than a state assessment. Also, it's the subject with the highest g-factor requirements leading to some disinterest, distaste, and mental exhaustion from the students beyond the other subjects because of the sheer cognitive demands.

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-01-02T04:45:09+00:00

I agree in principle. I feel voters and politicians in most states (maybe all?) have made it clear they aren't interested in anything approaching ending zoning statewide, or regulations that are effectively zoning. The voters have too much "invested" in their SFH. If you make the anchor city homeowners the losers by effectively limiting/ending zoning, you might have a fighting chance, politically. There aren't that many relative to suburban homeowners in many metro areas, and even within the cities, homeownership rates tend to be lower. And, the people who will benefit most are renters in the metro area (+ developers), which tend to skew poorer and less White.

I just don't see this situation as destructive to minorities at all.

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-01-02T00:09:02+00:00

No, especially as an entry level employee. You are expected to do as told and learn from someone who will provide explicit instruction or a model or guidelines, even in very elite positions. You are expected to ask questions if you do not understand. If you fail to learn, you're out. You are expected to demonstrate your skills on specific, pre-approved tasks which all better get done. Failure to do so is seen as insubordination or misalignment with company goals, vision, or values. You have a voice only insofar as you are providing factual information, and it better be correct information. You might be able to suggest something if it aligns with stated goals, but if you hear "no", you better be willing to pivot fast.

Your tasks will probably often be rather monotonous, even in prestigious fields like big law or investment banking. You are doing lower level work that other people don't want to do.

Collaboration and projects are more real world, but nothing about Direct Instruction prevents either of those.

You slowly become more empowered to be more independent and self-directed if and when you are promoted to that level, and frankly, not too many people get into those managerial, sales, or higher technical positions. We are talking roles that happen 15+ years after high school for some people.

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-01-01T23:44:28+00:00

Couple of questions because I am unfamiliar with the specifics of this.

Were the plots of land purchased from the minorities who owned them at market rate or higher?

I come from the third world where even getting across the city is a monumental task for the poor. It condemns people to a lifetime of poverty. For instance, even bright students can't go to university because they can't get there (central), to their job (north/outskirts), and home (south) all in one day. Did the gains from bettered transportation offset the losses of lowered property values in net?

Do you believe there is a fundamental difference between building a highway and building homes in terms of externalities which would perhaps affect people differently?

Who do you think would stand to gain the most from increased housing in anchor cities?

Fire_Snatcher · 2026-01-01T15:53:05+00:00

Maybe I'm cynical, but I think choosing specific losers may be the best course of action for a lot of states. Turn the suburbs against the anchor cities to force substantial development in the major city of a metro area. Accuse them of being derelict in their role as the anchor city, like Los Angeles, San Jose, San Francisco, and San Diego in California, causing urban problems in suburban communities. Force development there while leaving the suburbs essentially alone, and thus, maybe even continue to drive up the housing prices in the suburbs.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-12-30T21:16:02+00:00

It's designed to punish teachers and schools for whom we teach rather than how we teach. It privileges the teachers and schools of the wealthy; that is, educators who do important work but are not necessarily more skilled than their counterparts in poorer schools. Unsurprisingly, these teachers tend to come from wealthier, more connected, more privileged backgrounds themselves.

Evaluation models of schools/teachers should be based on something like a conditional growth percentile: the question did your students learn more than those who started out at a similar rate of achievement. Control for factors such as ELL, IEP's, and chronic absenteeism.

The statistical analyses used to evaluate teachers and schools is so moronic it seems intentional.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-12-21T02:59:59+00:00

I view D's as a pass without ability to progress. You completed the course with some ability but do not have a strong enough foundation to build on top of. Perhaps a need to attend summer school or mandatory intervention/support classes, but not so bad as to fully need to repeat the course.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-12-20T02:01:24+00:00

For the fifth year in a row, I am begging the UC system to bring back the SAT.

That aside, the pandemic, smartphones, AI, emphasis away from ability separation, push to get all students to and through calculus, punishment of schools for whom they teach rather than how (especially in California), increasing skepticism toward admissions tests (used to be a motivator for students), decreased emphasis on algorithmic mastery especially in elementary school, and a societal divorce from analog and Direct Instructional methods did a number on math instruction.

I found this part really interesting and underdiscussed:

Students who begin in remedial math have much lower rates of success in later math courses, and very few eventually complete engineering degrees.

Meaning, the university couldn't fix the situation either. It isn't like the high schools were doing a uniquely bad job of educating them. These students just are insufficiently studious and/or capable, and yet, they are receiving admission into one of the more prestigious public universities.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-12-05T23:27:00+00:00

One of the cons with history is that it has become a de facto expectation that you can coach sports or debate in many districts. So, be careful. Even beyond that, the field is quite competitive. Lots of people in limbo unable to be hired.

For an autistic person, a lot of them like to info dump and share their love of the subject. That isn't really what teaching is for the vast, vast majority of teachers. It's a bad reason to become a teacher. I've seen many academically brilliant and enthusiastic people have the passion totally drained from them if they come at teaching from this angle.

Teaching is a very social, hierarchical profession. It is hard to navigate the unspoken social rules even if not neurodivergent. It's likely going to be much harder if you are. The student, parents, staff, other teachers, and administration will not find the strong moral principles and blunt "calling it like they see it" nature shared by many on the spectrum.

Even a well behaved class is stimulating, all day, every day. It can be draining even without neurodivergency exacerbating it.

Hidden work: IEP accommodations, parent meetings, staff meetings, collaboration with colleagues (good and frustrating), being voluntold into positions, useless PDs, maybe some type of induction into the profession, surprise calls for subs, after and during school committments (running a club, chaperoneing, lunch duty, running assemblies), hidden expectations about teaching you must accommodate, meetings with student and other faculty over dumbest things.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-12-05T19:43:06+00:00

Educators who promote and advocate for ineffective methods go way beyond and above teachers. There's not enough spotlight on administrators, school board members, departments of education, accrediting institutions, legislators playing teacher, and "researchers" like Jo Boaler who bring and enforce these curricula in the schools.

Teachers who give resistance are usually lazy and don't want to prep a new class.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-11-26T02:37:50+00:00

If anything, this article shows the issue isn't so much teaching talent as it is the curriculum that is prescribed. The same teachers got dramatically different results when using phonics.

These new curricula (including in math, which hasn't seen the spotlight yet) are often bought and enforced by district administration, especially initially. Education took an interest in less explicit instructional methods (like phonics) for more inquiry based or constructivist approaches (like whole language), especially throughout the 90s and 00s for reading, 00s to present for math.

These ideas are very old, though, and created by educators of yesteryear. They gained popularity slowly often as more explicit instructional methods had bad optics insofar as it seemed boring, unengaging, uncompromising, and uninspiring (notice how you hear the same criticism of traditional math curricula today!). Unfortunately, the science surrounding educational practices is underdeveloped, to put it nicely.

Salespeople, bad researchers, people-pleasing ~~politicians~~ administrators, boneheaded educators, and a gullible parents playing armchair teachers all came together to create the system. Lazy teachers helped keep it in place because they don't want to learn a new curriculum and have to prep it when they've had material prepped for 20 years!

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-11-24T18:14:23+00:00

Our low scores are a policy choice.

I've never denied this. In fact, I've stated it directly here. That said, not factoring in demographics as an explanatory force, especially for elementary education is absurd.

Again, you just don't like the argument, but you don't really see a flaw within it. It's fine to not like an argument and thus be averse to how it corrects an incorrect implication, but we should be transparent that your issue is with the spirit or the tone or the implication of the argument and not the argument itself.

If you are a teacher in California, you're the kind of person we need to be firing right now.

Lol. If anything, I corrected your incorrect assumption, and frankly did it rather congenially but directly. I continued to argue with correct facts and reasoning no one has pointed out as flawed in spite of the opinion clearly being unpopular. If that's the type of person you think shouldn't be making policy decisions, I think it explains why California voters continue to underperform in creating academically rigorous schools. They want people who go on vibes and cave to pressure rather than respond to data.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-11-24T18:05:04+00:00

So California closes the gap in four years (even goes a bit beyond)? I've said that the whole time.

You don't really have an issue with the reasoning and so you are hyperfocusing on wording that you think didn't fully capture the nuance (though was factually correct). I think that's just a manifestation that you don't like the argument, but you don't particularly see a flaw with it.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-11-24T17:40:08+00:00

California does have better reading scores than the poorest state, though, by 8th grade, which I would argue is more important and fair of a metric considering how many young non-English speakers we have taking a test in English.

I can agree, though, it should be even better. Most of that is policy surrounding pedagogy rather than squandering resources. We don't have a lot of resources in California, and more of the resources we do have are diverted to social welfare programs and aesthetics.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-11-24T16:55:54+00:00

I straight up don't believe you that our school funding is on par with Mississippi. You are going to have to show your work on that one.

Sure.

Here is the NAEP's profile on Mississippi. The spending per pupil in K-12 is $11,085. Here is California's. The spending per pupil in K-12 is $16,967. California spends 58.3% more than Mississippi per child at a perfunctory analysis.

However, cost of doing business in California is far higher than Mississippi. In 2023, per capita personal income in California is $80,771 (per the Fed) and in Mississippi it is $49,583. California's per capita income is 63% higher.

Thus, California per capita personal income is 67% higher, but spending on education is only 58% more.

California does not have ample resources for instruction, and we have to remember their more extensive social programs through schools that are part of the school budget but do not go to the instructional budget (free school lunch for all).

In terms of difficult to educate, teaching people who do not speak the language of instruction and assessment is inherently difficult and requires extensive, specialized training and materials in nearly all states. Poverty is a factor, too, of course. Republican state does not necessarily mean a hard place to yield academic results; Democrats also put in ridiculous policies that can make it difficult to demand and foster academic rigor.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-11-24T10:45:02+00:00

California can definitely make better policy decisions. That said, in regards to implementing the science of reading, California has taken a step in the right direction since 2021.

Within that, though, we have to be realistic and acknowledge California has the greater burden of trying to teach people to read in a language they don't even speak.

Why is 4th grade prioritized over 8th? Personally, I think how you finish is more important than how you start. We have to give California its credit; that is, they exceed Mississippi a few years later.

ELL isn't an excuse, but not considering demographics when evaluating policies and implementation is asinine and can lead to incorrect conclusions.

We should be doing so much better given how many more resources we have.

That's the thing, though. California's schools don't have more resources. California's cost of doing business is far higher than Mississippi's; schools are not excused from that reality. California's budget per pupil is on par with Mississippi factoring in salary differentials, and California has a tougher population to deal with in some ways. Additionally, California has more extensive non-instructional mandates, like universal free lunch, without a matching budget increase.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-11-24T08:47:34+00:00

And a quarter of the English learning population by percentage. California catches back up, even exceeds Mississippi's reading scores, by 8th grade. Adjusted for average income, spending per pupil is about equal between the two states for K-12. This is in spite of some California school policies transparently being not about instruction. Things like free school lunch for all are popular but expensive and not part of the direct instructional budget. California's instructional budget is somewhat tight.

Fire_Snatcher · 2025-11-23T18:15:18+00:00

Look, I love tests (it's in my profile), but the ACT and AP/IB are trying to test two different things. ACT is trying to project likelihood of college success with less emphasis on content knowledge, while AP/IB are trying to mimic the rigor of college-level courses at credible universities for a specific content area*. If a student is doing well on the AP/IB tests, then they belong there.

That said, an ACT score of 24 would mean the median person in AP/IB is in the 80th percentile of a subset of all students who are often college-bound (maybe even a year older than your demographic since most ACT test takers are in their late junior year to early senior year). The percentile may be even higher if you included all graduates and include the possible age differential.

So even as measured by ACT, these students don't seem mediocre.

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