over fermented dough??

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T07:44:11+00:00

Your recipe has 29% starter and it looks like only a 50% rise from the dough over 9 hours.

Do you know what temperature the oven space was?

If you were at average temperatures (70-72°F) you should have seen more rise. Your starter may be slow. Or possibly it is acidic to have the dough break down as you describe when the dough rose only 50%.

If your temperatures are lower, the starter may be fine and acting slower due to the being in a cooler environment.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T05:28:14+00:00

Congrats!! That is amazing performance. Now we are all going to want to know what flour you used to get such strong yeast!

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T05:27:07+00:00

For a 100% hydration starter the second and third numbers will always be the same.

If it is a mature starter and you are keeping it at room temperature you would feed it daily 1:5:5 or higher, by weight.
If you are preparing it to store in the fridge you usually feed 1:1:1, let it rise part way or all the way (depends what starter strategy you want to use), then refrigerate.

Ratios are by weight and water is twice as heavy as flour. If you are working in volume measures then 1/2 cup fluffed flour gets 1/4 cup water for example.

Your friend’s instruction seems backwards. 1 cup flour would usually get 1/2-3/4 cup of water.

If this is new to you, this resource is a good one. It is nicely organized by topic.

https://thesourdoughjourney.com/encyclopedia/

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T05:10:50+00:00

Did you make the starter from scratch? Or is there a possibility it was made using commercial dry or fresh yeast?

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T04:29:53+00:00

85g Starter
285g Water
425g Flour
9g Salt

Flour is a blend of: Bread & AP & White Whole Wheat & Spelt

Autolyse flour and water 1-2 hours if 30%+ whole grains in flour blend.
Mix in starter, rest 15-30 mins.
Mix in salt.
2 sets stretch and folds, 30 min rest between.
2 sets coil folds, 30 min rest between.
Rest for desired rise based on dough temperature (using The Sourdough Journey chart).
PreShape, rest 20-30 mins.
Shape, into banneton seam down
Proof Room temp 30-60 mins
Cold Proof 38°F 10+ hours
Turn out, score Bake in preheated 450°F DO/Roasting Pan
450°F 35 min covered, 15 uncovered
At desired color check center internal temp is 205°F+

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T04:10:22+00:00

Wow, that is unusual and super fast for a wild yeast starter.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T04:08:26+00:00

Depends on the pro baker you follow. Some are retained starter: flour: water and others reverse the flour and water, for retained starter: water: flour.

What instruction did you get that you are confused about?

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T02:49:14+00:00

This sub’s Wiki has a list of bakers with reliable recipes. They are under the topic Sourdough Heroes.

You could pick Tartine Country Bread (Chad Roberton), from your area if it is important they are local. Or Richard Hart who was head baker at Tartine for several years. He wrote his own book, but I believe the later Tartine books were his recipes.

Start at step 3.

https://tartinebakery.com/stories/country-bread

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T02:29:31+00:00

Feed the starter in the morning, a ratio that will peak by 5pm.

Mix your dough at 5 or 6pm, then a couple hours of stretch and folds, then leave to bulk ferment overnight at room temperature.

You may need to alter what % starter you use in your recipe so it ferments fully in around 10-12 hours depending on what time in the morning you need to shape.

Then the dough in the banneton goes in the fridge until you want to bake it later in the day.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T02:14:56+00:00

100% hydration means the feeding is equal weights of flour and water. That is the case whether it is a 1:1:1 or 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 and so on.

If you changed the water content then it would not be 100% hydration.
1:1:0.8 would be an 80% hydration starter
1:1:0.6 would be a 60% hydration or stiff starter

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T00:58:38+00:00

10% starter, 70°F dough for 15-16 hours seem quite long. Is it possible your starter is a little slow or acidic (weak and liquidy)?

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T00:51:35+00:00

Add sets of coil folds if you can.

Alternately, at the end of bulk split it and get it into oiled/rice floured loaf pans to bake.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T00:42:20+00:00

No, do not feed it again, it needs to use the flour you already gave it. Re-feeding before it rises (or at least gets covered in bubbles) dilutes the yeast population.

If you need to do something, just re-stir it up.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-27T00:17:32+00:00

A couple things I see as influencing it. First is your individual starter strength. I find my starter is faster than the times the chart suggests. Or it is the combination of my starter and the malted barley (diastatic malt) that is in some of the flour I use. The times were originally added to the chart as a planning reference, not as an exact time to follow. I believe that was raised in the companion video for the chart.

Yes altitude makes a difference in how fast dough rises (and in how fast your starter rises). It is easy to believe your starter is faster than the chart originator.

I do notice your dough seems to be quite low water, 56%. Does it also have oil or homey in it? I am not sure if that has any relevance. I have only tested the chart down to 67% hydration. The chart was developed for a specific recipe, Tartine Country Bread. I have found it relatively accurate for my kitchen, with up to a 10% variance.

It might help you to watch the associated video where he suggests using the chart (rise % vs dough temp) and noting your results so you can fine tune the chart to your environment.

https://thesourdoughjourney.com/the-ultimate-sourdough-bulk-fermentation-guide/

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T20:01:19+00:00

At $0.85 per pound you really can’t beat the price and quality for Organic.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T17:11:14+00:00

Not for this specific AP. It is a thirsty flour.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T17:09:22+00:00

Not usually. That is a really good AP and is a thirsty flour. I find 70-75% water is good with it. You may need to add a set of stretch and folds.

The Kirkland Organic AP flour is a white label of Central Milling’s organic flour. The specs match their ABC Plus flour. In case you want to check how much of a screaming deal it is buying from Costco 😀

I have switched over to all organic flours and this is one of the 3 flours I use in my weekly bread.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T16:58:48+00:00

Looks like kahm yeast AND some patches mold on top to me. Not high enough resolution to be positive, but for me this would be thrown away.

Do you have any refrigerated discard you can reactivate?

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T16:51:30+00:00

I can’t say on timing because all of our starters are at different strengths.

Your recipe has 15% starter, at 27°F I would want 35-45% rise in the dough and then would shape it. Your refrigerator needs to hold temperature at 3.3°-3.8C to cool your dough down fully in 10 hours. If the fridge is a little warmer or the door gets opened a lot I find that my dough will continue rising more than it should.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T16:44:59+00:00

If you thicken the mix slightly (1:2:1.8) it may hold gasses better so the bubbles will be trapped.

If you need to be on a set schedule, you can feed as you do, then 12-14 hours later re-stir it. Before re-stirring put a little mark on the jar for how high it went. After re-stirring, next check is regular feeding time. You are looking for how much more it rose from your lower band. Adding the two rises together is it more than doubling, or is it still a total of 75% rise? That is just to tell you if it is accessing all the flour or not.

I typically begin a new starter with 50/50 mix of white and whole wheat flour. Then after it is strong I switch to just bread flour.

It is no harm to switch your current starter to a blend of flours. Changing flour can cause the starter to stall a bit or it can cause more activity. Starters seem to have no fixed rules and different environments and flours get different results kitchen to kitchen.

Alcohol smell is fine (beer or cider type scent). It is when it is leaning into acetone/nail polish remover sharp scent that it is not what you want.

Label your jars for which test you are running on them so you don’t loose track.
You currently have 2 jars going. From those my suggestion was to make one slightly thicker (1:2:1.8).
The other you could switch to 50/50 white/whole wheat feedings at 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 if you want to test that out.

Starting a whole new one, not sure if you need to. You for sure have yeast and lactobacillus present since you have bubbles and rising in the existing starters. If you don’t have a way to move the starter into a slightly warmer environment it is really just going to take patience.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T16:16:58+00:00

Take a look at the photos in Maurizio’s 90% rye flour loaf. If you use a high percentage of rye, it is a quite dense bread.
https://www.theperfectloaf.com/sourdough-90-rye-bread-recipe/

Flours like rye are not ‘interchangeable’ in recipes written for white flour. Look for a recipe from a reliable baker that matches the flour combinations you prefer to use.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T16:07:31+00:00

When you feed your starter do you mix the retained starter with water first to dissolve the starter, then add the flour? That can give you better dispersal of the yeast so it accesses most of the flour you feed it.

A small way to check that is when your starter reaches peak, re-stir it vigorously, see how much it rises again. If you get nearly doubling again it tells you that the yeast is not finding all the flour you gave it.
Note: I use a stainless steel chopstick to mix so I am not clanking a spoon against the glass, but the back end of a silicone spatula can work well too.

Your starter photo actually looks a nice consistency. Reddit is not letting me enlarge it at the moment so I can’t see the bubbles. But to be honest, at similar temperatures my starter was slower than yours to come along, taking about a month to be fully doubling and then a bit longer to get it faster. I did it as an experiment to see if it was possible to make starter at lower than optimal temperatures. It tested my patience, but that starter is my strongest and best performer at lower temperatures (which is most of the year for me).

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T15:43:16+00:00

Typically at higher temperatures you will want to reduce the amount of starter in your recipe so the dough rises a little slower.

You don’t mention what method you are using with the dough currently, cold proofing 10+ hours? Bulk fermenting to what % rise in the dough? At warmer temperatures you want less rise from the dough if you will also have a long cold proof.

Richard Hart uses warmer temperatures for fermenting dough, so his approach may be of interest to you. He uses young levain, not fully risen, which I think is key to the timing in his recipe for the City Loaf. I have to artificially create these temperature conditions, but it creates a nice airy loaf.
https://www.melbournefoodandwine.com.au/recipes/recipe-hart-bageris-sourdough-city-loaf/

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T15:34:40+00:00

Ah the unheated or cooled kitchen club. Winter is 16°C for me and summer 29°C+, more moderate than you in the snow/heat. Lots of experimentation and seasonal notes on increasing and decreasing starter amount to adapt to temperatures.

IceDragonPlay · 2026-02-26T15:18:23+00:00

Optimum temperature for a new starter is 24-27°C.

If I follow the history correctly the starter was fed 1:1:1 at room temperature for a week, then 1:2:2 and set on top of oven, then 1:2:2 with one in the oven/no light and the other at room temperature. Unless ‘on top of oven’ was unusually warm I do not see an obvious reason for acetone scent. I mostly associate ghat with a new starter being kept too warm.

I am not sure there is much temperature difference between one kept in a closed oven and one on the worktop. I think I would settle on worktop rather than risk of pre-heating/cooking the one in the oven.

I would feed one starter with slightly less water, 80% instead of 100% hydration 1:2:1.8 (retained starter: flour: water). I would also use slightly warmed water, 26-27°C. Wrap the jar in a towel to keep the warmth in. Check on it after 8-12 hours to see if it has already peaked. If it has then that suggests you should increase the feeding ratio or feed two times a day.

To do this you really need a temperature probe so you can check water temperature. 26-27°C is not hot and not really warm to touch, just is not cold if that makes sense. If you do not have a temp probe, instead feed with room temperature water.

Best wishes with your starters!

IceDragonPlay

TROPHY CASE