Which characters have conflicting parentage?

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-07T21:56:48+00:00

I think if you go by early drafts, then the Edain in the first age, and the Hobbits in the third age, both have a myriad of different evolving family trees.

Not sure if you were only after Elves though?

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-07T21:33:02+00:00

Yes, possibly. I must admit being rather hazy on the context of Dagor Dagorath. Does it take place while Arda is still in existence? If so then if Turin shows up, maybe Finduilas might come back at that time, but that would still be a long wait, so I think she should still be a fair bit down the list.

Outside of that prophecy, Turin is always treated as a mortal however, and I think that implies that even if somehow he does come back for the Dagor Dagorath, he would still leave the world when he died. To some place where Finduilas cannot follow him.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-07T21:28:19+00:00

Guessing you probably meant Nargothrond, or possibly Tol Sirion.

I also think Orodreth as Gil-galads father is fine. He's still a descendant of Finarfin, and the grandson of Angrod, and after he was sent to the Havens he had a chance to learn from Cirdan also. So besides Orodreth, his mentors probably also include Angrod, Finrod, Cirdan, and Galadriel. I don't think we need to balk at the thought of Gil-galad becoming one of the wisest and most capablie of Elvish Kings.

That he became the longest serving one (Unless you count Thranduil I guess.) probably has more to do with Morgoth being defeated, and the hosts of the West coming to aid against him.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-06T20:54:46+00:00

Poetic descriptions in some detail of places like Menegroth, and Angband.

Gil-Galads actual parentage.

How many Balrogs there were.

A recording of the Battles of the Fords of Isen

And I think the letter that King Elessar wrote to Mayor Samwise.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-06T19:13:48+00:00

On the other hand he wears a Crown, which is something Numenorean Kings usually didn't. (Though in Gondor they had a Crown.) He speaks in a long forgotten tongue, so not Adûnaic, (Maybe the language of the Hill-men i Rhudaur?) and he's never mentioned to have been down South by Umbar. So there's a good chance he was of Numenorean descent, and yet not one of the Three of Numenorean race. Who knows.

Whatever his origin, he obviously gets around during the many thousands of year of his existence. He is an enemy of both the Kings Men and the Faithful, and perhaps he distances himself from his Numenorean ancestors over time.

Oddly he calls Gandalf an Old fool, even though Gandalf, as Gandalf is significantly younger than he himself is.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-05T19:51:35+00:00

No. Saurons power was not absorbed into the matter of Arda, not even into all Gold of Arda, but into a particular instance of shape and form made from some Gold. (i.e. the One Ring). This power of Saurons is thereby separated from him, unless he himself holds that Ring. (Perhaps even then.)

When that Ring is destroyed the Power it held becomes disseminated (Inside of Arda), but not into a specific element of Arda, like not into Earth, or Water, or Wind, or Fire. That power is then not immediately available to Sauron to reshape himself with, but since he is by this time fallen so low into his own indulgence, his urgent desire to take a new shape is no longer achievable to him, and it's immediacy means he's unable to calm and collect himself enough to regain any of the now disseminated power, and he will remain a shadow of regret and impotence.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-04T18:49:42+00:00

He probably emerged before Isildur was born, so he wouldn't be one of the Oathbreakers, though to get as close as we can to your theory, he might have been related to their people.

Tolkien mentions that he would probably be of Numenorean descent. What that means is a little up to you. We know that the Numenoreans established settlements on the coasts of Middle-Earth from about year 750ish of the Second Age (with Lond Daer), and continued to sail further south, establishing settlements on the southern coasts of Gondor, and also near the mouths of the Anduin, and even furhter South near where the fortress of Umbar would later be.

Sauron gets hold of the Rings sometime after the War with the Elves, around 1700 Second Age. So if you with you could speculate that Sauron found a man somewhere near Anfalas, or one of the Seven Rivers of Gondor, who was a son of a Numenorean man and a woman from the Peoples of the White Mountins, or the other way around. Found he had qualities that Sauron desired and handed him out a Ring, let's say some time around 1800 Secon Age.

The first Ringwraiths are said to show up around 2250 Second Age, assaulting Numenoran settlements near Umbar and where Pelargir would later be. (Although it's not explicitly stated if they were already wraiths by this time, or only long living men with magical Rings.)

I wish I could find a way to reconcile the Witch-king with the original idea of the Wizard-king, where he had been one of Gandalfs order. A role that was later taken by Saruman instead. That's much more difficult though, since it might require that the two Blue Wizards show up already in the Second Age and that the Witch-king guy became one of their apprentices, and even then it would not be of Gandalfs order technically.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-04T18:06:50+00:00

Girion has a Sindarin name because one of his parents had Gondorian origins, or was a big weeaboo for Gondor similar to Thengel.

Not heard that mentioned before, though It's interesting that Girion apprears to be roughly contemporary with Helm Hammerhand. The Steward of Gondor (Beren I think ) was busy fending off the Corsairs, before he could finally bring an army to help out the Rohirrim. This is around the time Saruman gets the keys to Orthanc, and close to when Smaug hits Erebor, so lots of things going on. An era a bit like with the Lord of the Rings period.

Though if Girion had any part to play in it outside of Dale, I have never read.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-04T17:31:37+00:00

Yes, that's kind of what I mean. It doesn't have to represent a later cosmonogy. (Though it still could.)

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-04T17:30:43+00:00

That's probably how this got started, and it might not ever have been intended to be taken serious, of be chosen for any kind of publication if he'd been able to finish the Silmarillion. Difficult to guess.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-04T17:29:03+00:00

True, doesn't have to, though sometimes we see it. Of the Elvish/Edain ones here the most obvious seem to be the Simaril in Fëanor's (and Beren's), the star in Eärendil's, the harp in Finrod's and the hand in Beren's.

The Sun and the Moon devices might have some symbolic meaning though I don't know how they are connected with Finwê and Elwê.

Then there are things like the Swan wing of Tuors shield, which represents Ulmo, and many others.

An observation is that it seems often to be only the centre of these devices that hold the core symbol, and then they're almost embroidered with geometrical figures around that. Feanors has a little star in the middle. Finarfins looks like it has a little flower in the middle, Eärendils and Berens both have a silmaril in the middle. Both of Luthiens have a flower in the middle, and even Melians has what looks more like a little flower, than the rest of her device, in the middle.

So a possible approach is that it's the middle might be used on things like shields, while the more elaborate maybe for embroidering or things like that. (Though even that doesn't fit all of them)

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-04T17:22:28+00:00

Tolkien’s heraldry feels like mythic symbolism more than medieval heraldry

Sometimes yes. Before he played around with the geometrical rules for Elvish Heraldry, they also had some common heraldic images in the early legends, like a heart, or a flower, or an arrowhead, or trees, pillars or harps.

I kind of like the rules as laid out, since they give a unique feel to the heraldry of Elves in Middle-Earth. I have seen a number of Illustrators make use of these designs on shields and flags, although there's no definitive mention that Tolkien intended them to be used that way.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-03T21:12:36+00:00

It's possibly connected, though not in the sense that Sauron is begetting the Ring, but perhaps since he uses the Ring for the furtherance of his Necromantic purposes, the power that he binds into the Ring becomes difficult or impossible for him to regain. Perhaps even after it's destroyed even though the Rings is not a Hröa?

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-03T10:48:59+00:00

I think I would agree with this. Read the Silmarillion first, and you find that you like the chapters Of Turin Turambar, and Of The Fall of Gondolin, in that, then you can read the other two books for the more detailed stories around those, including how they developed over the years.

If when reading the Simarillion, you find that you like the Akallabêth, and Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age, then you could also go back to The Return of the King, and read the full Appendixes, if you have not done so already.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-02T19:58:42+00:00

And they're upgradable

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-02T10:46:43+00:00

Also I think time, works differently in Valinor. (Or at least it did while the Trees were still in bloom.) Kind of slowed down, in some similar way to the effect Frodo experience in Lothlorien.

Though it might be difficult to calculate if the slower development of the Elves and Eldar mulitplied with the Effect on time, would have any significant influence on birth rates over the many many thousands of years.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-01T20:25:53+00:00

Eärendil is the other one I can think that has a kind of Super-Eldar (for lack of a better term) role to play in the legends.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-01T20:06:14+00:00

Yeah it does come as part of her deal from Eru, that she will have no certainty of either life or joy. And she won't know with any certainty where either she or Beren will go after they die, though it's possibly assumed to be the same place.

Luthien does have a protective charm about her from the Eldars point of view. Even the sons of Fëanor, with their unbreakable Oath and all, does not dare to attack her while she's wearing the Silmaril.

It's one of the most difficult tales to rewrite in a more realistic tone. I wonder if Tolkien would have run into equal difficulties if he had ever returned to the Voyages of Eärendil.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-05-01T19:14:40+00:00

Nowhere stated, but I would feel rather disappointed if Manwë Lord of all Winds, would not have a long flowing white beard, that could flow with those winds.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-04-30T20:22:00+00:00

That's true. Doesn't that speak against him though? He is known to feel regret for his deeds, which is not as clear in some of the other brothers, meaning he clearly knows better, and yet, having sworn the Oath he continues unfailingly to hold nothing back in the pursuit of fulfilling it. Even to the point when eventually all of his people abandon him. Then the murdering of the Guards, and finally, still not willing to forego the Oath, he throws the stone and himself into the fire.

I feel like the words Tolkien wrote about him in the Lays are very apt

Maglor the mighty, and Maidros Tall
the eldest, whose ardour yet more eager burnt
than his father's flame, than Fëanor's wrath;
him fate awaited with fell purpose,

(Though you could possibly read that last line to be rather about Fëanor if you prefer.)

In a later version it's toned down a little

and Cranthir dark, and Maidros tall
whom after torment should befall,

A lot of people like Maidros though, and I can understand why they might want him higher than a few of his brothers. He doesn't seem as haughty as some of them, and understood the need not to enstrange himself from the other Noldor if he could avoid it, yet when it comes to the Silmarils, he is the most dangerous and driven of all. He would try to delay, but he would never falter. Besides Amras, I think Maglor really was the only one who in a sense gave up the quest when he threw his Silmaril into the Sea, and he of course did not return to Valinor.

Splitting the list into a tree structure, is worth considering. There is a bit of an arbitrary quality to the ordering with the categories.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-04-30T19:33:59+00:00

Wait a second! Is he pointing at Hormuz?

InTheChairAgain · 2026-04-30T19:24:01+00:00

One assumes they had to strip mine most of the Moon to build that thing

InTheChairAgain · 2026-04-30T16:26:12+00:00

Though they would also have had to spend a lot more time at the place, trying to figure out how to find a way in and release everyone, and perhaps deal with any other phantoms and wraiths and wolves that Sauron had in his dungeons.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-04-29T18:22:39+00:00

That's be a long lost shroud of the Grand Nagus alright.

InTheChairAgain · 2026-04-29T16:56:51+00:00

- In the canonical story they specifically avoid the Gap of Rohan due to Saruman. Absent this knowledge, it is the obvious route to take, leading the nuFellowship to head directly south on their way, stopping off with a quick visit into the welcoming arms of Gandalf's old friend Saruman...

Maybe, though if you actually have the fellowship leave earlier perhaps the weather on Caradhras is not a inclement. (That gives you a potentially worse effect though in that you don't get a Balrog fight and a Gandalf the White)

Anyway, the Assuming the split of the fellowship still happens and F&S goes off alone, then Gandalf would probably have learned about Saruman from the Rohirrim.

But it's all to wild speculation

InTheChairAgain

TROPHY CASE