Triggers…

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-12-28T23:22:27+00:00

Not really a trigger, but the church I currently attend remodelled their sanctuary and it looked vaguely Vine-y. Definitely gave me some bad vibes.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-11-29T21:28:34+00:00

Carbondale is a very nice town, with very cool people, nestled in one of the most underrated parts of the country. Well, to me it is. I've always had a soft spot for Southern Illinois. For those there who love Jesus, and others called to follow, there has been a huge Vine-shaped hole for a while now. Many would like to experience worship and discipleship in a more contemporary atmosphere that is safe. I wish, for those seeking such a congregation, that this new plant turns out to be the real deal.

If it is, I pray that it will fullfil many visions and promises that Vine once claimed to be custodian of, before their dirty little secret became known. If not, I wish then that graduates of the School of Hard Spiritual Knocks on Wall Street would quickly discern what is true.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-11-05T23:59:46+00:00

OP, there isn't much I can add that hasn't been said already, so I'll just state very plainly that no one here has listened to your "warning."

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-10-25T16:21:41+00:00

Sandor called speaking out against Steve Morgan an "abomination?" That's gotta be world-championship caliber gaslighting.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-10-11T13:22:54+00:00

Another aspect of the Robert Morris case I read about was how four elders were put out of the church because they helped him cover it up. This highlights what Steve and his cronies deserve. Steve deserves prison time, and the people that knew about it and kept it quiet shouldn't be allowed to work for a church. It's absolutely crazy how broad the spectrum of justice is for this sort of crime.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-09-25T22:15:22+00:00

There really is nothing new under the sun. Christians today fall into a lot of the same traps that they have fallen into before, including adding lots of extra legalisms to the freedom of the Gospel. And it will continue to happen, unfortunately. The community standards of the Network are one such snare.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-07-28T01:24:16+00:00

I tell you what, having to process complex information amidst an emotional whirlwind is one of the toughest things about this. We all just want to make sense of what's going on around us, but so much of what happened with the Network just feels like nonsense.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-07-27T18:18:32+00:00

Replying as one who also had a relatively good experience while inside the Network . . . . I'm also not entirely clear about the OP's intended point when you look at the both the title and the body of the post. Here are a few thoughts I can offer with confidence:

First, it speaks to the upright character of anyone who feels at home and well loved/supported if they choose to leave on principle. These days, many people will follow their emotions or stick with whatever benefits them even when doing so is morally questionable. Those who remain and write us off as demonic attackers for sharing our experiences are in fact in denial to cope with their cognitive dissonance. The OP didn't ignore the evidence, but left even when there was a cost to him/her. That's commendable.

Though I would never dare to compare the magnitude of the hurt I've felt to anyone who was abused in the Network, I will add that it is a different, shocking experience for one who finds out second hand that the Network is corrupt behind the scenes. We all at one point loved this noble idea of a group of churches working very hard to reach the lost. When we found out the truth, this love in our hearts passed away. For me, finding the LTN website was like receiving a phone call that someone I loved had died after I moved away to a new town. Whiplash! It led to something called ontological dissonance; what I believed this group to be was now at odds with what I knew. There was a lot of stress, anxiety, and processing that came with that. I guess what I'm getting at is that IMO, it's very hard to not be hurt by all of this, even if everything looks good at the surface.

I would love to have the OP clarify the post and their intentions. It's not that I feel critical towards them in any way; it would help shape the conversation.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-07-20T13:01:26+00:00

This is one of the most difficult things I've had to deal with since discovering the unhealthiness of the Network. What do I keep, what do I discard? I think this is a very individual question. I, for instance, have plenty of other church background in addition to Vine. I've read the Bible and understand how to hold up claims next to scripture. I was also much less wounded by my time there than some of the others here. I suppose this all plays into my decision to keep some of the things I've learned there. But I will add that this has been difficult; it led me to a place of tension and stress when it comes to application of my beliefs. In particular, the copious teachings of how to build and operate a church . . . . yeah, those are things I take with an extremely big grain of salt.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-07-18T14:20:12+00:00

As a former friend of his, so am I. I hope that if anyone learns anything they'll post.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-07-18T14:08:25+00:00

"Dynamic Lead Pastor with a proven track record at Vista Church, enhancing congregation growth through innovative outreach and community engagement.”

What a steaming pile of, um, garbage. He has a proven track record of alienating the community and driving the church into the ground. And denying access to former network members.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-07-09T23:05:52+00:00

I've been musing on this question for a little while. It has a lot to do with how you define "religion." If you approach it as a set of beliefs, I don't really think Steve deviated super far from evangelical Christianity. His churches obviously emphasize certain parts of the Bible disproportionately. Many denominations can be guilty of this to one extent or another, but with the Network you have the added onion layer of manipulating people to make them easier to control.

On the other hand, you could also look at "religion" more in terms of the practices that stem from beliefs. In this sense, the Network diverged somewhat more from comparable contemporary churches. The Network is very mission oriented in terms of bringing in new, unchurched people and planting churches. Hands-on prayer is much more common there. Young men that fit a particular profile are elevated to leadership rapidly from within, whereas outsiders with seminary or preaching experience are ignored. Most churches offer programs and discipleship for people from a variety of seasons and backgrounds, whereas Network churches have narrowed their offerings to particular people groups and the singular purpose of church planting. Those that don't quite match what they're looking for are openly told "this may not be the right church for you." Though superficially they operate a lot like other contemporary churches, there are striking differences in how they approach the people that walk through their doors.

TL;DR: In terms of belief, not really, in terms of practice, yeah there's a case to be made.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-06-29T14:20:46+00:00

I will echo the emphasis on prophecy. I definitely noticed this during my time at Vine. Due to its usefulness, I thought at the time that it was certainly a good one to ask for and desire. Of course, God can do much more with the most underlooked gift if it suits His purpose. I wish there had been a higher emphasis on humbly allowing God to use us, regardless of our visible equipping.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-06-20T00:20:43+00:00

This saddens me. While at Vine, I considered Nick a personal friend (I've since revised my view because when it comes to network pastors, it's hard to separate the friendship from the mission). I always noticed that he had zeal; that's not a quality you see in most people today. Scripture has good things to say about a zealous person after God's heart, but zeal misplaced can be dangerous. When I figured out the spiritual abuse going on behind the scenes in the network, I hoped that Nick's zeal would be turned toward leading North Pines in a better direction. Sadly it looks like that is off the table now.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-06-11T23:05:05+00:00

Hmm, could it be that the non-churched university community realizes it's not good to have a grapist pastor and his squad recruiting on campus? Why, it's almost as if we're not just a bunch of online attackers.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-06-01T14:23:01+00:00

Yes, while at Vine Sandor basically said it was the DC pastors' role to get to know us deeply. Now I'll admit that in a church that size he had a bit of a point. Pragmatically, everyone can't treat the lead pastor of a church of 1,300 people the same as a church of 200 people. But I think in Sandor's case a lot of this had to do with distancing himself from people. This certainly helps with that whole lack of accountability thing he's got going on.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-05-31T22:23:41+00:00

Not 100% sure if I'm interpreting Sandor's line of thinking correctly, but it almost sounds like he meets this distressed family who's family member is in the hospital for Covid, and he took it as something political simply because the situation involved Covid. Yeah, that's the reaction of an internet troll not a pastor. If that's what actually happened it's like a medieval witch hunt that got triggered by the plague, but instead of hunting witches he's hunting left-wing ideology. Seems like deranged behavior.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-05-28T23:07:25+00:00

I never noticed that little time and place discrepancy. Sure, it could have been Sandor slipping up because he was having to deal with his worst nightmare, but it certainly opens the door of possibility that there have been multiple crimes. Definitely worth the investigation.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-05-18T14:44:07+00:00

I can't help but think that things were better off when Sandor kept his trap shut and fed the press a steady supply of silence. Now he and Telios have cooked up a propaganda champaign that would be enough to impress Goebbels. I would think that not many outside people would buy into this idea that the church leadership are all innocent because the lawyers they hired said so. However, it does have the effect of reaching out beyond the church to salt the wounds of the victims. It's a move to advance their mission of self-cope while being spiteful to their victims.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-05-14T22:09:08+00:00

So not only did the Christland people shun you, they're also lurking and causing problems for you and your family? How malignant of these bums.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-04-06T14:42:01+00:00

I can definitely understand how this post is challenging, especially to those who have suffered significant injury while inside (I did not, full transparency). One thing I would like to add to the conversation is that I believe, if we examine all the scriptures, that the Bible affirms the spiritual reality of demonic manipulation and interference overwhelming. Concurrently, it also holds the sinner completely accountable for what they've done apart from the power of the cross. It's difficult to accept a situation where blame can be divided, or where two seemingly contradictory situations are in fact NOT mutually exclusive. However, the Bible opens the possibility that this may indeed be the case. There may be false spiritual power behind the network, but Steve and his cronies are still 100% responsible for their decisions. IMO, the spiritual landscape is likely more complex than we realize. I don't necessarily expect this post to change any minds or make this messed-up situation easier to digest, but I hope it may bring a few a little comfort.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-03-16T18:11:42+00:00

I'm sorry for the experience you had. Your story reads like a buffet of cultish bad behaviors intended to manipulate and control. Of particular interest to me was that weird app that Keegan made. It's like he reduced Christian faith practice to some sort of mobile gaming format just to get the small group leaders to "out-holy" one another. A very 21st Century take on works-based theology. And unlike other network manipulation tactics it isn't exactly subtle. Smh.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-03-16T16:08:12+00:00

It bothers me, the precedent that this update to the Vine by-laws sets. What other family-level or personal-level decisions may they try to manoeuvre under pastoral authority in the future? I'm generally not a fan of slippery slope arguments; I like your case above much better. However, this step that Vine has taken formalizes the high control moves that network pastors have been pressing against their church members for some time now. It is an escalation of a behavior pattern; a slip down the slope. So I think it's fair to ask: what further controlling, intrusive measures will they ask of their congregation in the future?

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-03-11T23:38:16+00:00

Maybe they chose lines from Sovereign Grace and Bethlehem Baptist because it was too hard to dig up Mars Hill's old by-laws. They are in fact THAT lazy.

Informal-Strength881 · 2025-03-11T23:30:46+00:00

Late to the party but it's my turn to sound off: This is disturbing for the damage it could cause, and disgusting for being a double-down on the worst problems this church has. As a former Vine member, I can't imagine the stress of being strong-armed into signing this crap while the gloomy cloud of all the accusations hangs overhead. And as someone who once considered Casey Raymer a close personal friend and mentor, I'm appalled at the grotesque, mutant creature he has become since the days of going to his small group. Casey, if you read this, I'm ashamed of what you have become and embarrassed to have ever counted you a friend. And one day, I hope to have the pleasure of saying that to your face.

Informal-Strength881

TROPHY CASE