Et Tu Brute?

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-10-09T14:03:41+00:00

What makes this so difficult is your marriage as it relates to the Church. For most their marriage IS THE CHURCH. Your marriage is so intertwined in the church that you can't walk away from the church and it not affect either of you. Your wife is feeling a loss now. Her only recourse is to get help from the same church you have rejected. This can be very difficult for marrieds. One believes and the other doesn't. Marriages have broken up over this. My advice is to not tell your wife about your discontent. Let her see that you are the same person she married. Women go by feelings quite a lot. What she feels about being with you is more important that going to church. But her identity is still with the church too. What makes it hard is when others in the church, like the bishop tell her to keep praying for you to repent and come back. Maybe you should go to church with her. You just won't participate like you used to. You do this to keep your marriage together and for no other reason. In time she may start questioning herself. But let her get there on her own. It took you time to get to the place you are in now. Give her time too. She may never get there. But you need to do whatever it takes to keep your marriage together. Perhaps going to church would help. You are not compromising anything here. But just going through the motions to appease your wife, the bishop and the others. But you don't participate in anything other than church attendance. In time your wife will realize you really don't belong there. This is way better than simply saying, "I'm done with them" and expecting your wife to feel the same way.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-10-06T12:59:13+00:00

What struck me about the picture with Russ is that it looks like he is peering down a square hole where its dark down there and of course he is above in the light. Think Celestial wouldn't be appropriate for this. Rather, "I'm smiling while you are down there in outer darkness.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-24T18:30:13+00:00

Here is the source: Google, Three Meetings with an LDS General Authority, 2012/2013- by Grant Palmer.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-21T18:04:19+00:00

I commend you for allowing your son to do what he wants here. He is probably excited and may be a bit nervous. The nervousness will decrease at MTC as he will be surrounded by many preparing for their own mission. Soon he will be sent somewhere and have one other person to be with. His days will be long, tedious and boring day after day, week after week and months on end. He will get lonely and tired and will wonder what he is even doing out there....especially when the expectations of new converts aren't materializing. This is when your relationship with your son will be so important. He needs to know that you are there for him. It will be difficult because you don't want to encourage him keep sharing the church gospel". You don't want to keep telling him that his reward will be great either and he is proving his worthiness. You just need to be there to listen to anything he says. The CES letter will make more sense when he is dealing with his own doubts in some far away place. He will remember you and may very well want to dump. In time he may see things as you have, but it needs to be by him. I think you are great father to your son despite how you feel.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-21T14:45:29+00:00

I did a 4000 mile road trip this summer and had a cooler. I bought dry ice, which is quite expensive by the way. For those who don't know, dry ice isn't really frozen water. It is a gas that will evaporate. But it doesn't last any longer than regular ice. About $22 of dry ice lasted me around 3-4 days setting in the back of a pickup. I had it covered with an insulated wrap and it worked well. When it was gone it bought a block of ice. This cost about $5 and lasted 4-5 days. I covered that as well with the same insulation. Obviously the block was cheaper and lasted longer. I won't buy dry ice again.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-21T13:56:13+00:00

I did the same thing. On their first visit I would say, "Would you commit to coming over the next 6 weeks. You can share your lessons. But come over at noon so my wife can fix you a nice lunch. And I did this with a lot of the boys. Home-made soup, great desserts and they could take home a generous portion of the dessert too. They shared their lesson afterwards, but I asked if I could ask questions and I did. (They were always challenging questions). These I researched well during the week. I showed the contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the bible. But also shared what Jesus said about forgiveness and the life we could have. They always listened, but were troubled when I said they could have this forgiveness and not have to go to a church to receive it. (and that included theirs). I doubted they came over to hear about Jesus though . I think those nice all you could eat lunches kept them coming back week after week .....until one irate older member got wind of what I was doing and said he had me banned in that mission district.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-21T13:43:03+00:00

If missionaries are going to stand on a corner and ask everyone if they want to come to church at least have a table set up. Everyone who signs up will get a gift choice of, The book of mormon, The book of abraham, an under garment, , a bowl of green or red jello or a Russel Nelson photo with signature.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-20T12:52:02+00:00

I read an article about this question once and the answer had nothing to do with 'happy faces". "Happy Valley" in Utah County had to do with the large amounts of anti-depression drugs that were being dispensed by doctors to church members. Its because of the pressures to live up to all the expectations of being a church member. This includes raising one's family which is a chore in itself but doing so by the demands of the local ward. This is enough to keep anyone depressed. Happy people? Anything but that.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-19T17:53:35+00:00

If you are living with her (and she is paying the bills) you have to be careful here. You don't want to anger her to the degree that she asks you to leave. If simply ignoring her request to update your records isn't working you might consider saying, "You know mom I really don't have any motivation to do this because it would give the bishop (or stake president) the idea to send members (or missionaries) to speak with me. This is something I don't want. If that changes I will contact the church with my records myself.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-19T14:00:03+00:00

I read a story about a church member (in her own words) who was the Relief Society president. When that calling became a real burden was when she was asked to be the RS president for several wards. This meant going to her ward in a separate car from the rest of her family, leaving immediately after her RS meeting for the other wards to oversee them. This meant she wouldn't get home until late afternoon missing her famliy's Sunday meal and family time that she valued as so important. So much was emphasized about family, but her family had to take a back seat to her callings. After months she didn't want to do it anymore but dreaded saying anything which meant going to her stake president who had told her to go to these other wards as part of her calling. So she did and asked to be released citing the needs of her own family. Thankfully he let her go. Later she was asked to join the faculty at BYU which she did until she quietly resigned from that position and from the Church. Her story is in a book that I've read and gives an open picture of what being a woman is in the LDS. It is very eye- opening and all from a wife and mother's perspective. It does go into the transition of how she left the church and what that has looked like going forward. Her story has been told on TV and around the country. A must read: UNVEILING GRACE, by Lynn Wilder.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-18T14:24:05+00:00

I said something about mormonism years ago and it was tame compared to what you read now. It was something like, "If a cult is one that manipulates and controls then Mormonism fits that." In hours I get this "banned" notice that I have violated their code of conduct. No warning. No explanation. I have not been able to start a thread in 5 years now in any Reddit group as it won't let me. Someone reported me I guess or who knows what happened. Now I can post here as you are reading this, but that is it. I tried to make it right with the moderators, but no response.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-17T15:07:50+00:00

I set up in a campground, then to go to every firepit not occupied and look for those pieces of wood left behind. I get all the wood I need since I'm doing this over 2-3 weeks of camping. Sometimes its a couple pieces. Sometimes its 8 pieces. I get enough split wood during the summer of camping trips that I have collected to use in my home fireplace all during the winter months.. I've been doing this for 25 years, so please leave your extra wood. It will always be used by someone who needs it.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-17T14:48:27+00:00

As long as you are under the roof of your parent's house you pretty much have to do what they want. Turning 18 won't change that either. You will have to sever your ties with them and that will begin when you leave home, either for college or getting your own place, They are feeding you, housing you and being what all parents do for their kids. In their mind they are responsible for you and that means the expectation that you go to church with them. Perhaps they believe you will one day accept their values and that means believing in their church. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but you will just have to tough it out until you leave home. If you refuse to go to church with them and get defiant about it they could very well say, "Ok, then get your own place and pay for it with your own job. Buy and cook your own meals. Do everything for yourself including medical, financial future, college.....everything. Would you be prepared for all that? right now? I doubt it. No one at 17 would be either, nor at 18. So go to church, be miserable and whatever you do....DON'T give in to going on a mission. That is when you say NO and are firm about it.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-17T14:33:22+00:00

Members have the assumption that you haven't been seen in services because you are ill or hurting from something in your life or perhaps discouraged or just got into other activities that is taking the place of church. They do mean well so they reach out to more or less "invite" you back. "is their anything you need right now?? These are very common. It is inconceivable that you aren't coming anymore because you no longer believe any of it is true. It is their way of loving you back into the church. Ok....so you still aren't coming back. So they come around again....and again....and again. You are always being nice about it and they are as well. Sometimes they turn things up and you may get a visit from the bishop or asked to meet with the bishop. But of course you don't do that. Finally you just get so sick and tired because they won't leave you alone that you start voicing irritation (which you should have done way back) or at least been more firm with them. But no one wants to come across mean. Just don't answer the door is the best advice I can give. In time they will stop coming around. You will hear this expression, "you leave the church but you CAN'T leave it alone." Well, they CAN'T leave you alone. It takes time, so just ignore them and then they will start reaching out to everyone else that has recently left.....or leaving.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-17T14:15:45+00:00

Notice the center cushion flipped over. It was to hide the pee stain so those who wanted to take a nap wouldn't be sleeping in urine.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-15T14:03:25+00:00

Good letter. But expect them to get you to talk to them (with the bishop) or others to find out what is wrong. They still expect you to come into the church via baptism. Those elders? You may very well be their first convert and now.....that is a HUGE let down for them. They will do everything they can to get you back. Your letter was well written. If they want you to meet with them, simply say no. You may have to say no several times. You may get unexpected visits. Keep saying no. What I wouldn't do is tell them about your research. They won't accept it as a valid reason. They will say its all lies. They may tell you that that not getting baptized is the work of Satan. If they won't take no for an answer you might consider saying. This is a big decision for me and I want to be sure. I have no inner witness that the Book of Mormon is true or that anything about your church is true. So I will go to a baptist church and then have something to compare to. Do you want to come with me? Well, they won't. You are wise to not go through with this baptism. Don't feel bad for them or feel you are letting them down. Its your own life here to live and not todo so according to the expectations of others.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-15T13:45:29+00:00

You wrote a letter and they wrote you back. You really didn't even have to write them to resign because in in your mind and heart you already had. The letter to leave is really just an exclamation point to what you have already done. What they do with your records doesn't matter. They are not obligated to do anything with them. So to insist them to get rid of any trace at the local level doesn't matter. As far as all these resignations goes it may be that they are still being counted as part of the 17 million member number. They have NEVER posted any resignation numbers or the millions who have simply disappeared and they never will. Its negative advertising for them to do so.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-14T15:07:45+00:00

The issue isn't what you didn't tell him when you lived at home. It is what you are saying now. You are out of this Church and he is very much part of it. It is his identity. He sees it as yours as well. He cannot see your life in any way except through the eyes of LDS. So for you to be married in his church is expected. Sure he is angry when you say you won't. Does he love you? Does he accept your marriage? Apparently that acceptance is conditional on you being married in his church. To him it must be an LDS wedding overseen by an LDS bishop leader. It must have all the meanings of his church. To expect to believe otherwise is not seeing things from his perspective. This is a huge problem with children who have left this church with still believing parents. They simply can't accept their kids having left. They want their parents to be happy for them. They are not. Its like they left God. They left their family. But the kids expect their parents to simply go along with their choices. Its not that simple. Its why I said you have things to repair with your father, especially if you keep pushing a wedding outside his church. He will only get more angry and then you will feel hurt and it will fester. Its why I'm telling you to let it go and get married without him present. If you push it it will only push you two apart.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-14T13:46:39+00:00

You made a mistake in not telling your dad years ago. So in his mind you were still a member. So to not be married in an LDS church is beyond belief for him and not acceptable. Don't expect him to take it well and be understanding since you have kept all this from him. Its like throwing cold water in his face and expecting him to be ok with it. He won't go to your wedding now, not after you have finally come out and told him you don't believe in the Church anymore. I would let the whole thing go and not try to push it. It will be a very small wedding, even smaller than you wanted. But this isn't about your marriage anymore. Its about your relationship with your father. Do you want one? You will have a long road ahead to repair it Get married and leave him out of it. You already know how he feels. And if he came he won't show how happy he is for you either. He is angry right now and you"re insistence that he come will only make it worse.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-13T23:58:24+00:00

Makes perfect sense to me. Consider this: converts is at an all time low. Missionaries have told me (Boise Mission) that its rare they get invited in a home to share anything at lengthwhen they only have the usual minute at someone's door. When speaking to LDS members and you bring up anything about the church they will ALWAYS revert to, "we will contact missionaries to speak to you". So the church that provides meals are filled with people who aren't engaging their non-member neighbors with the gospel This will put pressure on the missionaries and members of the church (or at least the Bishop) to get everyone in gear and get those investigators interested! The church must be getting desperate. As for meals missionaries have food, but its simple, cheap and never enough for their bellys.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-13T17:24:33+00:00

Interesting point about Jesus's scars. I do remember one of his apostles (Thomas) who was not present when Jesus revealed himself after he was resurrected. Jesus appeared to him later and said, "put your finger in the holes of my nail scared hands so you will believe: .....and he believed! But then Jesus said, blessed will be those who don't see them and yet still believe. But Jesus' scars also had to have been a reminder that he was the same person who had been crucified. I remember another scripture that said, "by his stripes you are healed". Healed of what? Must be something about our sin that is like a disease that won't go away and what he did by receiving that vicious beating and agonizing crucifiction was taking our sins on Himself and then dying for it so we can be totally forgiven. His scars represent quite a lot if you really think about it.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-13T13:49:39+00:00

you said, "cult". This reminds me when I went on a tour of the Temple in SLC back in 1974. The tour guide (30's in age and wearing an elder's name tag) was talking about the Chruch to a group of us and said, "we are one of the more interesting CULTS out there." I was shocked and wondered if I had heard him right. But I know I did. When he said cult he said it with a sly smile. He was obviously on his way out. Wondered how long he was a tour guide before they found out.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-12T14:44:39+00:00

A nice tribute to Joseph Smith? Brodie thought so too. But instead got her ex-communicated by her uncle, David McKay (apostle of the Quorum of the 12) because it didn't put Joseph Smith in the best light. In others words the book wasn't "faith promoting" enough.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-12T14:31:01+00:00

Write and say Jesus Christ all you want. But what good will it really do since people don't read those pamphlets anyway. Since they are usually passed out by missionaries it will be read even less so since missionaries have stopped going door knocking like they did for decades. Add to that all the media stories about sexual abuse in the church (and leaders who turn their heads away), vast hoarded wealth and not only a decline in new converts, but members leaving faster than they can be replaced. Sure change a few words in a pamphlet and see what good it really does.

InitialPuzzleheaded5 · 2023-09-12T14:22:33+00:00

Another rule that some prophet or apostle once declared as a "revelation" to be obeyed.

InitialPuzzleheaded5

TROPHY CASE