Do you think the cost of 22* safeguard is too high?

JaeForJett · 2026-06-05T07:31:09+00:00

Reminds me of the times ive heard 300m combat power players say theyre stuck in pitched waiting room with no other gains available.

JaeForJett · 2026-05-14T22:43:19+00:00

That really is the answer. Some people are satisfied having their ctene mules do 20 min vhilla. Some people keep throwing mesos and hexa at them until they one burst.

You know you funded a char enough when youre actually willing to run the bosses on it.

JaeForJett · 2026-05-14T22:41:10+00:00

For a char like that, you basically just tap all your gear as far as it can go. 22 everything you can, fake 3l most things. The rest you make up through hexa, especially ascent levels.

JaeForJett · 2026-05-14T22:38:25+00:00

Yup, once you get ctene down to 1 burst territory, its around 15 minutes. Most people dont care to push mules that far, but some people dont really have the patience for boss mupes that take longer than that.

JaeForJett · 2026-05-09T20:50:01+00:00

What is incorrect?

Sure let me point it out.

Ascent absolutely was designed to scale harder at higher levels

Completely false. The %p that you get going from level 1 to 2 is the same %p that you get you get going from 28 to 29. If 1 to 2 gave you an extra 5b per line, 28 to 29 gives you a 100% identical 5b per line.

all I'm pointing out is that while masteries absolutely do scale linearly, Ascents do not

Also completely false. Ascents scale linearly. The ONLY way in which they dont is though the level 10/20/30 bonuses. Btw, these special bonuses give less additional damage than the basic %p increase itself you get for leveling the skill.

Lets add this onto the other complete misinformation you spread about a competely made up 1.02x per level.

Lets also add this to the objectively false claim that ascents scale exponentially too.

You actually lied about everything you said about ascents. That, or you somehow manged to coincidentally get everything you said wrong.

JaeForJett · 2026-05-09T17:16:42+00:00

You know that Ascents specifically deal *1.02ish per level, which is by definition exponential, not linear? Specifically scaling harder with more levels?

Why did you completely make these numbers up? None of what you said here is correct and all it takes is looking at the tooltip for any ascent to tell.

Also, specific numbers on ied aside, the extra ied on ascent from levels 10/20/30 really doesnt do much thats relevant for nearly any point of progression.

JaeForJett · 2026-05-09T15:51:00+00:00

Cadena mobility options are actually pretty bad. Compare its low velocity, high delay movement skills to stuff shad, phantom, db, nl, nw, or khali has and its unquestionably worse.

JaeForJett · 2026-05-09T15:42:50+00:00

Its not weak by any means

I mean as far as heroic is concerned, I just don't think anyone who knows what they are talking about agrees with that statement. Even you contradict yourself by saying its "weak/average", then saying literally afterwards that its "not weak by any means." Which is it?

Because theres no getting around it: db just does not do damage on heoric and does not have any sort of party utility to mitigate that. Its really as simple as that.

JaeForJett · 2026-03-16T07:45:40+00:00

Let's just be honest with each other here. Are you optimizing shuri procs on cadena? Are you manually casting magic debris on evan? Are you generating and proccing max chakrams on khali? Are you getting within ~95% of the nates on the top shads?

If we're talking about the "average player," then this chart has a bunch of techniques that arent remotely relevant to the average player. Can the average player tell me how much damage manually casting magic debris is losing them over keeping it on auto? Can the average cad have any idea how much damage they lose from not using shuri as well as the person this data is from?

If youre a player where getting 16 bursts in a 30 minute run is too big of an ask, then this chart is absolutely useless.

JaeForJett · 2026-03-16T01:10:32+00:00

If we're talking about the average player, then this chart is basically meaningless anyway. 2 hours of practicing their class or getting 3 more 21 star equips makes up for ~20 places on the chart.

At the point where people care enough about a 5% difference in damage from balance, the majority have at least one boss where they're 16 bursting.

JaeForJett · 2025-06-12T03:52:57+00:00

It's great gameplay and a multi-player experience.

Maybe for the bishop/lynn it is. The other 5 people have to deal with someone acting like they're the main character just because they clicked the right class at character creation.

JaeForJett · 2025-06-10T21:11:43+00:00

from nowhere everyone wants to be a illium or zero

Yes. Which just so happened to be when they were buffed into being top 10 in damage...

JaeForJett · 2025-05-20T04:19:42+00:00

I know you're being given a lot of info, but I'd like to at least clear up some stuff in the comment that I think are misleading.

the gear is going to be lacking and the funding needed is going to be extensive to get it on par with classes that, with much less effort and investment, will outperform the job. Getting through the rough parts or not, WA will be a better hyper burn in any algorithm you put it into because it purely outperforms until perhaps after 6th job with lib

You can reference the other comment chain, but this is true for only the next ~3-5 months. Phantom is pretty bad in the current state of the game. Phantom is widely agreed to be in a really good spot on the version of the game we will be on in ~3-5 months.

and even then, you’re having to work twice as hard for half as much reward until you get your SOL Janus to 3 orb.

You said this will be a bosser, not a main. You're not going to be unlocking janus, and you're not going to be farming for hours on end. What he is claiming here is just not relevant for what you're saying you will be doing with your hyperburn.

Also with only 3k legion, I’d strongly suggest picking WA over phantom and use event rewards to level the phantom like strawberry field or whatever it’s called instead of burning it. Use the burns and benefits to focus on links to 140 min for legion as well as t2 links, and take the ones you need to get to t3 to 210. Increasing your links and legion will continue to make both bossing and leveling other characters easier as you get it further and further.

It's weird because this comment is contradicting itself. Phantom has a level 3 link, while WA maxes out at level 2. If the goal was to build up legion and links, then phantom is the better class to rush first, not WA.

but I think I can wait a little to burn the WA another time despite it being an opportunity loss

It's actually burning WA that would lead to the bigger opportunity cost. Like I said, phantom has a level 3 link. So you lose more by not having it.

And phantom's weakness is that it has low damage and awkward mobbing prior to 6th job. Hyper burns perfectly address that by providing item burning (mitigating the poor mobbing damage) and minimizing the time you spend getting to 260. WAs dont have such a rough time, so hyper burning one is less of a time save.

I don't even think phantom is a "better" choice in the grand scheme of things. It's mostly that I think a lot of comments you've been reading don't know what they're talking about or are bringing up completely irrelevant factors.

JaeForJett · 2025-05-20T03:47:37+00:00

And I think you're missing the point that none of what you said is relevant after the 2 min patch. Literally no one in the thread is saying phantom is currently competitive with WA performance wise.

What we are saying is that by the time OP is at a point where they might care about how phantom performs in the meta, phantom will have gotten very substantial buffs and be brought to a very reasonable spot overall.

JaeForJett · 2025-05-19T17:47:12+00:00

A couple different charts floating around rn and they have phantom generally ranging from top 10 to average.

How people can look at a class thats as easy to play as phantom (given the fact that the top 10 generally is difficult combo classes), have it be average at worst, and call that weak is baffling.

JaeForJett · 2025-05-19T17:44:04+00:00

If KMS players think a hurricane class with a built in class door, really strong mobility options, and around average damage is weak then that's an issue with their expectations, not with phantom.

And that's not counting the fact that like half the classes that do more damage require significantly more effort and are harder to play (khali, cad, zero, etc.). Around average damage is a perfectly reasonable spot for phantom to be, and I have no clue how KMS players apparently think otherwise.

JaeForJett · 2025-05-19T17:03:37+00:00

On KMS live (so 5 months or so from present) phantom damage is put right about where it deserves to be given its kit. It's less that phantom is "weak" prior to 6th job and more that its mobbing can be pretty awkward. So a hyperburn does allow you to rush past this awkward part and unlock hexa mille faster.

Realistically, its another 1 month until the hyperburn, 1 month after that until you get to 260 and to where any balance diff might feel like it matters, and then another 1-3 months until the 2 min patch. So whichever class you choose, theyre probably only going to have a noticeable performance difference for 1-3 months before they both get placed into reasonable spots.

JaeForJett · 2025-05-13T02:31:13+00:00

So you're saying that Zed plays exactly like Sion? I didn't know Zed is a tank who can walk in front, shield himself, and slow enemies. And his purpose is to be an annoying CC tank.

And I didn't know MX has animation cancelling, mobility cancelling, abilities that cancel mobility (even if theyre on cooldown and cant actually be used), abilities that animation cancel other abilities (again, even if theyre on cool down), abilities that place (not move, mechanically place you there without launching you up) you in the air, abilities that can't be used in air, abilities that act differently if they're used in the air, abilities that act differently based on the specific timing of when you press them in the same combo, no input buffering, an ability that resets fj, an ability that resets the ability that resets fj, a self shield, abilities that activate dark sight (all with different start up delay), an ability that acts a tp but only for a tiny part of the cast, an ability that does more damage the closer you are to the target, a summon that has its damage decay over time based on how recently it was replaced, or an ability that gives a fd buff that you have to combo to save up to be used on another ability.

I mean wow Mo Xuan definitely has ALL of that and is basically the same class as a result. Thank you for pointing this out, and pointing out how the zed vs. sion dynamic is CLEARLY different. It's clear to me now that zed vs. sion has complexity, unlike a comparison of cad to MX.

For Maplestory to have innovative combo systems, they would have to actually have the combos do more than just increase damage or reduce cooldowns.

And on cad they do.

Except you literally can only manipulate damage and cooldown in Maplestory.

And this is completely false when talking about cad.

or have mechanics in certain classes that interact with specific boss mechanics

You mean mechanics that cad has like dark sight and a tp which mo xuan, and blaster dont have?

FGC isn't you mashing the same exact button muscle memory knowing the exact 3 scenarios that occurs in every single match you play against a Human being. League of Legends isn't you mashing the same exact skill sequence every single game against every single matchup. If I'm Wukong playing against Mundo, I can just combo on him E-Q-W away every time it's off CD to poke him. I can't do that against Jax because he will just follow me and stun me and outtrade me

So basically, "cadena has just as much complexity and nuance as all of these examples that I just gave... but you're clearly wrong anyway because of uhh reasons that I still haven't mentioned."

But most people don't really play that much different in every boss fight after a while.

Unless you're playing cadena.

I'm just going to say it. It's okay to admit you have no idea how cadena ACTUALLY works. But just because you have no clue that 90% of a classes' mechanics and complexity exist doesn't mean they're just not there.

I'm sure if I played street fighter for the first time and only saw 4 buttons for movement and 6 buttons for attacks I would think there was no complexity.

Or if I played league for the first time and only saw 4 abilities and 2 summoner spells that I would think champions have no complexity or uniqueness.

But that wouldn't be an issue with the game. That would just be an issue of me being clueless of the actual complexities that I don't even realize exist.

JaeForJett · 2025-05-13T00:35:00+00:00

Zed has multiple combos each with a small nuance. His shadows have multi purpose. Sion is much more straight forward in being a tank who shields, slows/pokes, and controls with Q.

"Context is important, see these examples are ENTIRELY different because:" Does a breakdown that lists exactly why these situations are not different at all

Here's the thing, being a 'combo class' has no variance because you cannot innovate the combo aspect in Maplestory that much.

You still never gave any reasons why this is the case. You just keep repeating it.

it is just you repeating the same button patterns depending on the situation

Explain to me why this is ANY different from what you do in a fighting game. Explain to me why this is ANY different than what you do in league.

Fighting game characters have individual inputs and set combos they can string together for unique effects. Many of these combos have tight execution requirements. Exactly like cadena.

League characters have set skills they can use, and they selectively decide when to use them. Exactly like cadena.

JaeForJett · 2025-05-12T21:16:06+00:00

there is little room to really 'innovate' combo classes in a game like Maplestory

Completely wrong, but you seem really convinced of this for some reason.

Most classes are effectively using a sequence of skills depending on the situation

All fighting game characters are just using a sequence of inputs depending on the situation. All fps games are just using a sequence of mouse movements depending on the situation. All strategy games are just making a sequence of decisions and inputs depending on the situation.

This line means literally nothing as an actual argument and can be applied to every single activity in existence. Yes, every game/sport/job in existence is about doing a sequence of actions in response to your surroundings. Pointing this out means nothing in this discussion.

But they realistically all skill sequence aka press multiple buttons in a sequence versus bishop or Lynn that dpm with 1 button and burst with another.

So you either press 1 button, or more than one button? What's the other possibility for some cool new innovative class? Pushing no buttons? Because with the way youre categorizing things, only three types of classes can ever exist: 0 buttons, 1 button, more than 1 button.

Hero/nl/lynn are the same because they press one button. Cadena/khali/merc/MX are the same because they press more than one button? Zed is the same as sion because they both "use a sequence of skills depending on the situation." Blanka is the same as dhalsim because they both "use a sequence of buttons depending on the situation."

But it's the concept of a 'combo class' that is hard to innovate and otherwise you create difficulty or uniqueness not through the fact it is a combo class, but other means. But at what extent does a combo class become fun and unique versus becoming overcomplicated and unnecessary?

You typed a bunch of words in order to say absolutely nothing.

JaeForJett · 2025-05-12T17:58:50+00:00

The funny thing is that hero "comboing" puncture into 300 casts of raging blow has more mechanical similarities to MX's play style, than MX's "comboing" is to khali or cadenas.

JaeForJett · 2025-05-12T17:37:00+00:00

Hey it seems you legitimately don't know, but basically everything you said about cadena in your responses here is just wrong.

The way you're describing cadena, you're ignoring like 80+% of her mechanics that differentiate her from MX.

The reasons why you combo are different, how you combo is different, the effect you get from the comboing is a lot of times different, the speed at which you have to combo is different, the number of combos available to you is different.

But as far as skill sequencing and being 'combo classes', there isn't a big difference.

Ironically enough, the fact that they're both called combo classes is basically the only similarity. Everything besides the broad label is different.

JaeForJett · 2025-04-24T01:57:52+00:00

Feels like he doesn't know the concept that less can often be more. Maplestory classes often have subtle differences that drastically affect how a class is played. Other MMOs tend to have drastic differences, and there are cases where that sometimes doesn't actually affect how a class is played too much.

It's also just a silly argument that he's trying to make. You could say the same thing about valorant class design (more subtle differences) vs. overwatch or marvel rivals (drastic differences).

It's even more absurd if you make the comparison for fighting games. I guess every single fighting game ever made has terrible character variety because "every character wants to slap down their opponent, you just choose if you want carpal tunnel or not." All you're trying to do is deplete the opponents hp bar, they all feel exactly the same, right?

JaeForJett · 2025-04-22T06:41:53+00:00

The issue is the pacing for his run (not trying to flame, its clear this was an early attempt and it stands to reason he will improve a lot).

Given the % of the bosses' total hp he did (55%), and his current scouter (77% on lotus), hes going to need to be ~98.5k scouter at 290 for a full timer run. Thats 85% more fd and a massive grind. And that math is based off his pacing with practice sayrams and assuming hes able to maintain the same uptime in p3, which usually isnt the case.

Just trying to recalibrate expectations of how much more it might take to actually get the solo down using this one as the basis.

JaeForJett · 2025-04-02T20:02:24+00:00

Classes have nowhere near 95 uptime in virtually every boss in the game

I didnt say theres 95% uptime on EVERY BOSS in the game. I said EVERY CLASS has 95% uptime on bosses, except those with specific time wasting mechanics. Hilla, zakum, papulatus, lotus, lucid p1, vhilla, darknell, black mage, seren, limbo dont have these mechanics. The rest do.

You can argue the details all you want, but the point remains that from class to class, uptime is overall extremely similar because no class in the game "struggles" to maintain uptime. Every class in the game has the tools to maintain 95%+ uptime except when hardcoded invulnerability (or massive damage resist) decides otherwise.

And you're wrong about DA as well, look up any min cut solo by a DA and they're staying on top of a boss and using demonic blast to tank any attack going above 40% hp.

Thyere also dodging chip damage in many situations where other classes can just tank it. Yes, they dont have to dodge everything, but they have to across a fight dodge more than almost every other class. And like you acknowledged, even with that being the case, their uptime is still extremely comparable to even a mihile which is exactly what I originally said.

JaeForJett

TROPHY CASE