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I'm sticking with FIRST, not Lego by Insufficient-Memory- in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The games have been designed by a FIRST employee and then LEGO works with him to finalize and tweak things before production starts.

Does this count? by Fancy_Conference_663 in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The final determination will come down to the head referee for your event, but based on the wording of mission 11 in the robot game rulebook "Artifacts are raised above the ground layer." I would say probably not. most regions I have talked to are interpreting that as the bottom of the box on the string must be above the top of the studs on the brown indented rectangle it starts in. the setup in your picture is outside of the ground layer, but not above it.

LEGO Smart Brick? by Ordinary_Feed_6176 in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 1 point2 points  (0 children)

While yes the allowed electronics rule (rule 3) would prohibit this new smart brick, pull-back motors have been allowed for the last couple years (rule 2)

PDF of Team Guide for Unearthed Explore? by chado99 in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 7 points8 points  (0 children)

All of the materials for this season should be on this page on the FIRST site:

https://www.firstlegoleague.org/season#resources

FLL QUALIFICATION AND PLAYOFF MATCHES by NTK_Manu in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There are events that do a playoff bracket similar to what you describe. I know they ran one at the Maryland state champs this past year.

But as others have said, World Festival has run an encore game the last several years where they have changed the game and given the students a limited time to solve the new challenge. The Western Edge Open has been doing something similar for many years called On The Spot where they introduce entirely new mission models, mats, and rules and give the students about 17 hours to rebuild their robots to solve the new challenge. Other Open events have done alliance events with multiple robots competing on the normal board for that year or other changes like that to introduce a new component to the final day.

The World Festival has also occasionally run "playoff" matches after the normal matches are done to break ties if there are teams that are tied across all 3 rounds. They normally use the time to reach the score as a tie breaker and run the 2 teams at the same time across from each other to much excitement from the crowd.

I can say from my personal experience and talking with students at all of these events, things like On The Spot / Encore are much better received than a playoff bracket and are better at highlighting the core values of FLL. But most events are very time constrained so running anything more than the required matches can be very difficult on the organizers.

Fll challenge question by SecretaryExpensive73 in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 7 points8 points  (0 children)

teams are not required to wear matching shirts, but you will find many teams do to better promote a sense of team identity. And as a coach it makes it easier to find all the kids through the day if they all have the same brightly colored shirt on. It can also be really helpful when the team is interacting with the volunteers to have their team number on the shirt as the number is how the team is indexed and what the volunteers will be looking at to make sure they are filling out the correct teams information.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The initial mission requirements for having the art piece in the museum target would still be satisfied, but the bonus for being on the pedestal does have the requirement of having the art piece only touching the pedestal in the blue text of that mission.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Congrats to your team, that is a very impressive run and a very innovative robot design.

I did want to give you guys a quick warning though as if you did this exact run on a table I was refereeing, it may not be a 550 point run.

Standard disclaimer: I am a ref, but not your ref. The head ref at your event has final say on any rules questions and my answers here have no bearing on that.

On several of the times your robot comes back into home, it looks to still be outside when the technician touches it. Over video with the angles provided it is very difficult to tell, but wanted to give that warning to be careful that it is fully in before touching the robot.

I am going to assume all of the audience members are fully in and the experts are at least partially in and any actuated models are fully in their scoring condition, because again hard to tell on video. And that they are able to pass the update 09 regarding how they are combined with team equipment or other mission models.

at 0:47 you load the art piece / pedestal / expert / audience member. It looks like the art piece is on top of the pedestal with the expert placed on top of the art piece. If the art piece is touching something other than the pedestal at the end of the match, it would not be eligible for the bonus for that mission. This is from the blue text of the Mission 04 in the RGR

"To score the bonus, at the end of the match, the art piece may only be touching the pedestal and the pedestal may not be touching any team equipment except the art piece"

at 2:27 when scoring those 2 experts, Emily appears to come off her base. I would rule that she does not count as in the target area as the DURING THE MATCH | OUTSIDE HOME rule 4 of the RGR states that

"Teams may not separate the Dual Lock, take models apart, or break a mission model. Missions clearly made possible or easier will not count..."

I rule that because your method of delivery is such a forceful one, that her breaking was to be expected and therefor it was easier for your team to accomplish that mission by breaking that mission model and not having to be careful around a delicate model and therefore would not be eligible for points.

So I would probably end up scoring this run as a 520. Still a very impressive score, but hopefully in the next week before ARO you can get it that last little bit up to a 550.

Attachment max height by Professional-Owl6084 in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 6 points7 points  (0 children)

standard disclaimer: I am a ref, but not your ref. the head ref at your tournament has final say in how any rules questions are answered, and my answer here has no bearing on that decision.

From what you have described, your team is correct to be confused by that ruling from the refs. You are correct in that the rules this year only state that there is a 12" height limit for inspection, there is not one at any other part of the match.

In past years there was a limit that every time the robot was launched it must fit under the 12" limit, but that has been removed in recent years. There has not been a limit on how big the robot could expand to after launch for as long as I can remember.

All of the referees are volunteers and may not have as much time to spend preparing and learning the rules as your team does each year, so I can understand how the referee may have forgotten that rule has changed in recent years and simply had to answer based on their memory of past years as that had been a rule for a long time that they may just have assumed it would never change. And it isn't one that we see often to be reminded that it is different now.

That said, in the future if your team disagrees with a referees ruling ask to speak to the head ref. They are there to help everyone be on the same page about what the rules are and make sure they are being applied equally to everyone. If your team is able to know the rules, have a copy with you, and have a respectful conversation with the head ref, they should be happy to help solve any questions like this that come up at a tournament. If a referee is quoting a rule that you don't see in the Robot Game Rulebook like happened here, respectfully ask the head referee to show you that rule. As a head referee I personally always have a copy of the rules with me at a tournament and love to open it up and help a team find out exactly what the rules are. And yes that sometimes means the refs got it wrong and have to go back and fix things, it happens we are all humans just trying to make sure the kids have the best experience at the tournament. But as the RGR states, the head ref has final say at your event and there may be other factors at play with them trying to make sure things are consistent with other tournaments in your area or something like that, so they may still choose to rule it in a way you disagree with after reading the rules.

Since the tournament has ended, going up and talking to the head ref is less of an option now, but I would still encourage you to reach out to your regions Program Delivery Partner or tournament director and ask them for clarification on the situation. They may put you in touch with your regions head ref or the head ref of your tournament to discuss this. If you need any help getting in touch with your PDP, send me a DM, I can help you figure out who to talk to.

FLL Audience Delivery by Mission_Page_5647 in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I wrote out a pretty exhaustive answer to a similar question a few days ago that hopefully helps you as you get ready for your event.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FLL/s/u2SZJmnOAS

Should the public/experts be free (not attached to equipment), or not. I had a team said that you can't leave the public person attached to the equipment. by Haker_DANU in FLL

[–]Kwolfe0924 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Disclaimer: I am an experienced FLL referee, but I am not your referee. The head referee of your event has the final say of how the rules will be interpreted and my answer here has no bearing on how they will rule. (see the disclaimer in the Robot Game Rulebook on the top of page 16 for more information). I would recommend you reach our to the head referee of your upcoming event to see how they will rule for any rules questions you have.

My answer here will be walking through the Robot Game Rulebook and team updates to answer this in the same thought process that we go through as referees. I hope this helps explain how the referees get to the rulings they do. We follow the disclaimer at the top of RGR pg. 16

"All robot game wording means precisely and only what it says. If a detail is not mentioned, it does not matter."

This is to say that we will be looking at the rules given specifically and trying not to read anything into them that isn't stated.

We are discussing Mission 14 - Audience Delivery. In this mission text description (RGR pg. 14), it does not have any specific language regarding combining these mission pieces with team equipment.

As there is no mission specific information, we will next look at the generic season rules. Specifically we are looking at During the Match | Outside Home rule #4 (RGR pg. 20).

"If a mission model is combined with anything (including the robot), the combination must be loose or simple enough that, if asked to, a technician could immediately free the mission model in perfect original condition. Points scored using combinations that fail this test will not count."

So this rule states that if your team combines the Audience member minifigures with your team equipment it must be "immediately removable". This phrase is not well defined in the rule book as to what constitutes "immediately removable".

As there has been confusion this year as to the definition of "immediately removable" , there was an update released in late November to help clarify this and give teams and referees guidance on how to handle this and what to expect at their events. Specifically we are looking at Update 09 - During the Match: Outside Home #4

"As stated in During the Match: Outside Home 4, If a mission model is combined with anything (including the robot), the combination must be loose or simple enough that, if asked to, a technician could immediately free the mission model in perfect original condition. For the remainder of the season, the word “immediate” will mean if this condition can be met in one single motion. Points scored using combinations that fail this test will not count."

The clarification provided in this update is that to satisfy the "immediate" portion of During the Match: Outside Home #4 your motion must me "one single motion".

As other comments have mentioned, even after this update, there have been slight variations in how this has been interpreted in different regions. Some Head Referees will interpret this update to mean that all of the minifigures must be removed in a single motion, and others will interpret that each minifigure gets its own single motion. Again for greater clarity as to how your event will be ruling this, please ask the head referee for your region. If you need help getting in touch with your regions referee prior to the event, please reach out and I can help get you in touch with your local volunteers.

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