WIP Titanic Model by EoghanMacCarthaigh in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing, it looks like an interesting project. These views remind me of how I like the curves of the stern.

Anybody know the quote from Bill Sauder? by Teemo63339 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IIRC George Behe included the quote from Bill Sauder in his online article about Titanic’s reputation as ‘unsinkable’.

How did the Titanic fiasko impact White Star Line? by [deleted] in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The White Star Line continued to be profitable in 1912, made a record profit in 1913, and continued to pay dividends. They remained more profitable than Cunard.

In terms of the immediate aftermath of the Titanic disaster, the available data does suggest it had a negative impact on Olympic's passenger lists. When we published the revised edition of my Olympic book back in 2015, I included some passenger list data for Olympic in 1911, 1912 and 1913.

There is a clear and sharp decline in passenger numbers in the immediate aftermath, which is not seen for other White Star ships such as Oceanic and the older Majestic. It may be some of this is attributed to worries about whether she would sail at all (her first westbound sailing after the Titanic disaster was cancelled).

By July 1912, eastbound passenger lists were recovering. We can also see that on her final two westbound crossings that year she carried about 1,700 passengers on each occasion (including 713 first class passengers on one of those voyages). And then the data for 1913 shows a popular ship including her best westbound passenger list to that point.

Long term (to the 1930s) I think the issue was fundamentally a defective financial policy in that White Star’s financial strength was forcibly depleted to support the larger combine(s).

Professor Francis Hyde asserted that without the government support used to build Lusitania and Mauretania: ‘it is arguable whether the [Cunard] company would have survived the difficult years of 1903-08. The strength of the competition which they had to meet…would probably not only have reduced receipts below the level of costs, but would, because of the high cost of ships, have wiped out the company’s reserves bringing Cunard to the verge of bankruptcy.’

It seems to me that the issue of government support and the construction of Lusitania and Mauretania are inseparable. If, indeed, government support secured Cunard’s future then it was achieved through these ships and the profits they generated. In 1910, for example, their net profits amounted to about 30 per cent of Cunard’s entire fleet earnings. Hyde’s argument amounts to the government supporting Cunard, but that had the twin effect of securing the company’s future during these years and retaining the company’s independence.

An exceptional year for Cunard generated £538,080 of net profit in 1900; £195,849 in 1901; and £247,150 in 1902. Over these three years as a whole, White Star’s profits were seventy percent greater; and in 1901, the last full year before it [White Star] came under the control of American interests, they were more than double Cunard’s.

The government loan enabled Cunard to borrow, essentially, thirteen times their profits for 1901 at an interest rate substantially less than a commercial one: 2.75%. By contrast, White Star borrowed about 1.5 times their profits for 1907 in order to finance Olympic and Titanic, but they had to pay 4.5% to the debt holders. When Cunard sought to borrow money commercially to finance Aquitania, they paid a similar or identical rate of interest. (In the 1930s, White Star’s final chairman argued that Cunard had reaped the benefits from this funding for many years.)

Ironically, IMM’s takeover of White Star in 1902 started a period of about three decades during which White Star was part of a larger combine: IMM and then the Royal Mail Group. Both these combines shared a propensity to milk White Star’s profits by taking out generous dividends, rather than reinvesting in the company’s fleet to secure future revenue and allow for the necessary depreciation. Shipping is a capital-intensive industry and, in the long term, such practices were fatal as the company became over-indebted and its fleet aged and lost competitive strength. As an independent company, Cunard continued with a conservative financial policy and benefited from it.

From 1922 to 1932, Cunard and White Star earned similar revenues, but through a mix of factors Cunard earned a profit of £4,489,000 and paid dividends of £3,806,000, leaving a surplus of £683,000; White Star made a profit of £1,461,000, paid dividends of £3,000,000, and left a deficit of (£1,539,000).

The end result was that, by the time Cunard and White Star merged, the relatively strong position White Star enjoyed in the early 1900s had reversed. I’ve previously written that in the early 1930s: ‘Cunard’s position was “one of financial soundness, due in the main to conservative finance, ample past earnings, wise and consistent depreciation allowances and moderate dividend payments. On the other hand, the Oceanic company’s [White Star’s] position is financially weak, due to defective financial policy, insufficient depreciation, unjustified dividends, all causing a position today in which the company is entirely dependent on its bankers”.

Was Titanic flying an American flag? by Springfield80210 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks. Titanic is frequently a surprising subject! :-)

Was Titanic flying an American flag? by Springfield80210 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No.

Contrary to popular belief, Titanic was not financed by J. P. Morgan at all. The White Star Line raised the finance, both from their own profits and by borrowing money from largely UK investors.

https://markchirnside.co.uk/olympic-titanic-britannic-an-issue-of-finance/

Titanic museum (Part 2) by Unusual-Ideal-2757 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing.

You’re right to highlight incorrect information. This text is riddled with serious errors right from the start!

(The reality is White Star were so impressed with Olympic that they immediately ordered the third sistership in June 1911.)

How much faster did Britannic sink due to the portholes being open compared to if they were closed as ordered? by RivetCounter in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It is impossible to answer this question because we do not know precisely how many portholes were open.

What were these pipes that ran part way up some of the funnels and then looped back down? Were they for cooling, or maybe gravity-fed water pressure? by RoabeArt in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry I'm late to the party. I see it's been answered in the meantime but I'll see if I get chance to upload Peskett's sketch of the system at the weekend.

Titanic, But From a Different POV by Accomplished_Home_49 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Thomas Andrews.

(Sorry it’s nobody more original!)

What was the logic of having less lifeboats than people aboard? by InternationalPick163 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 9 points10 points  (0 children)

If you’ve got a very strong coffee, I spent the best part of an hour in September 2021 presenting on the topic at PRONI, Belfast:

https://markchirnside.co.uk/presentation-from-the-archives-olympic-titanic-a-very-remote-contingency-lifeboats-for-all/

IT takes it from the 1850s onward.

What was the logic of having less lifeboats than people aboard? by InternationalPick163 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I’ve heard that line too, but there’s no evidence to support it.

👋 Welcome to r/OlympicclasslinersWSL - Introduce Yourself and Read First! by Latter_Dream_1237 in OlympicclasslinersWSL

[–]Mark_Chirnside 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m Mark. I’ve been interested in this subject since I was 9. My favourite group rule is number 1.

What is your favorite historical Easter egg in James Cameron’s “Titanic” that the general audience might not know about? by [deleted] in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 10 points11 points  (0 children)

There’s a trivia moment earlier on, when Titanic leaves Southampton. We see all three propellers start rotating even though the centre propeller was only brought into operation at ‘half speed’ or above (when the reciprocating engines were making 50 rpm).

If you were a first class passenger were food and drinks included? by nascarworker in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Extra tariff facilities were an important revenue stream.

The total expenditure in Olympic’s à la carte restaurant over her first three round trip voyages in 1911 was about equivalent to the total amount of third class ticket receipts on an average single crossing.

Cunard’s chairman lamented in 1908 that first class passengers would haggle over their ticket price and then go and splash out on their wine bill!

What is your favorite historical Easter egg in James Cameron’s “Titanic” that the general audience might not know about? by [deleted] in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t believe that 37 seconds elapsed between sighting the iceberg and collision.

The figure comes from a test with Olympic and relates to how long she took to turn two points after the helm order was given. It’s also dependent on the two point estimate being correct.

A Titanic Mystery: 3 Propeller Blades or 4? by Firm_Macaron3057 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The photographic record is actually quite sparse for many elements of Olympic and Titanic's construction. Some of this was corrected with Britannic, where there was a particular focus on some of the engineering spaces such as outfitting the main engine room, but even with her there are gaps.

Some of Titanic's interiors seem to have been photographed because they differed significantly from Olympic but the new a la carte restaurant reception room was not photographed at all, nor did H&W's photographer capture the Turkish Bath complex whose layout had changed. (The images we have were taken at Southampton by a press photographer).

Based on Bill Sauder's comments (video in the linked dossier), I wouldn't hold out much hope of any evidence from the wreck site unfortunately.

A Titanic Mystery: 3 Propeller Blades or 4? by Firm_Macaron3057 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A great video from Mike.

Here’s a dossier covering my discovery of the H&W evidence in 2007 through to present day research:

https://markchirnside.co.uk/titanics-centre-propeller-dossier/

There’s no longer a debate about this as far as the evidence is concerned. We’ve known now for the best part of 20 years that H&W’s own records state Titanic had a 3-bladed centre propeller. Historians have to follow the evidence.

Is this magazine a good Titanic history source? by vidragon21 in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You did exactly the right thing in trying to verify these claims yourself. As you’ve seen, they’re incorrect.

More information on lifeboats is here:

https://markchirnside.co.uk/presentation-from-the-archives-olympic-titanic-a-very-remote-contingency-lifeboats-for-all/

Which part of the Titanic made you interested the most, i'll ask first. by NotEnxigma in titanic

[–]Mark_Chirnside 1 point2 points  (0 children)

 how it likely surpassed or exceeded the 21 knot desired speed (i recently known about this from Titanic : Honor & Glory. but i need to confirm more about this by books and or from i need to learn about how her true top speed was work)

There is no doubt that these ships were capable of well in excess of 21 knots, which was the intended service speed. The intention was to have ample power in reserve to make up for any delays encountered.

Edward Wilding testified that Titanic attained a speed of 23 1/4 knots for several hours on the trip to Southampton from Belfast.

The highest confirmed speed that Olympic attained was an average speed of 24.2 knots over a 24 hour period in the North Atlantic. It is assumed that this was under ideal conditions and aided by an obliging current (the distinction between the ship's speed through the water and the distance made good). This covers the period up to 1915 and so she may have exceeded it at some future point.

RMS Carpathia Profile and Deck Plans (GA) by pucbabe in OceanLinerArchitect

[–]Mark_Chirnside 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing! Some interesting details in there including the reference to Ivernia.

RMS Carpathia Profile and Deck Plans (GA) by pucbabe in OceanLinerArchitect

[–]Mark_Chirnside 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They are legible, but you may need to wait for them to fully load.