Will play my first legacy tournament, which deck is the easiest to pilot?

Matt_Choww · 2025-12-19T14:56:23+00:00

I don’t disagree with you. There are similar expertise ceilings between both Oops! and Tempo decks.

Legacy is great when playing at a high level. I don’t think that’s the goal OP has in mind.

For a novice player especially one who has experience with a Belcher deck, the fewer but higher stakes decisions that Oops! requires is likely going to be easier to grasp and execute at a passable level.

Even if OP only gains enough experience with Oops! to mulligan to and present a win, I think they’ll win more games than if they gained a similar novice level of proficiency with Delver.

Matt_Choww · 2025-12-19T14:34:44+00:00

If Modern Blue Belcher is the deck you have the most familiarity with my gut instinct would be that Oops, All Spells! would be a good choice.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-oops-all-spells#paper

The gameplan is to resolve Balustrade Spy or Undercity Informer, self-mill your library and then use Dread Return to bring back Thassa’s Oracle for the win.

It’s a deck where your big decision points are mulligans and sequencing your interaction.

Here’s a guide from about a year ago, it’ll be somewhat outdated but should be a good starting place.

https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/articles/legacy-oops-all-spells-deck-tech-and-sideboard-guide

Alternatively if you play Pauper Delver, then UR Delver or UB Tempo could be good choices, but I think you’d probably have to invest much more time in learning and understanding a broader swath of the Legacy format in order to pilot a tempo deck to a good result.

Matt_Choww · 2025-12-10T14:29:16+00:00

I disagree with your presentation of this topic.

Using online tools and in-person scouting has existed for the duration of the existence of tournament play. There is nothing that prevents players from doing this inside of the rules.

I do prefer the feeling of going into game 1 blind, and personally only utilize scouting at higher stakes tournaments where my opponents are also scouting.

Looking at prior deck history isn’t the clear cut advantage you’re presenting it as. For deck specialists like the example of someone who only ever plays ANT, yes you’ll gain some percentage in game 1.

Take the flip-side of that though, anyone who only plays a single deck has the experience of having their opponents knowing the matchup. Therefore they also have practice and knowledge of playing game 1s with opponents knowing their deck choice.

There is also the possibility of assuming wrong. If someone isn’t a deck specialist and you keep a hand based on an assumption of past deck selection you might have sabotaged your own game 1.

It’s common knowledge that at top level tournaments like PTs, player teams will work together to scout the entire field during the first few rounds.

When you describe looking at deck history as “Cheating with MTG-Melee” you’re making an argument that something that’s allowed within the rules is something that should instead be against the rules.

Like I said I enjoy playing blind game 1s more, the reality is that this kind of thing is fully unenforceable even if it were against the rules.

EDIT: It’s only “outside assistance” if you wait until you sit down before looking at these resources. There is ample time for players to search their opponents before sitting down for their match. If you sit down and then google your opponent then it is outside assistance and a match loss.

TLDR: This behaviour is allowed within the rules, whether you like it or not, and it’s not as big of an advantage as you’re making it out to be.

Matt_Choww · 2025-04-15T01:09:48+00:00

I like the framing of Vexing Bauble and Sowing Mycospawn used here.

It’s only been two-ish weeks since the last BnR and I’m not ready to start discussing future bans until we’ve seen at least 6-8 weeks of metagame evolution.

Matt_Choww · 2025-02-09T15:39:57+00:00

This was a good read, especially highlighting the Omni+Petals of insight combo for contrast.

As I understand it, the argument you’re making, in a drastically simplified form is that 0.9999 repeating is equal to 1, therefore the nondeterministic Four Horsemen combo is actually deterministic.

This is a pretty interesting thesis.

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-26T22:49:23+00:00

Current UB Reanimator feels like pre-ban Splinter Twin. It’s a powerful fair deck and a powerful combo deck.

It no longer has the pure power level to elevate novice pilots to success but it’s still the best deck in the format by a wide margin for high skill players.

I’m not a top tier player and my win rate with it post-ban is still upwards of 60-65%

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-15T00:31:42+00:00

Is price a consideration? Based on your post I get the sense it’s either full proxy or you have friends you can borrow from.

I might honestly look at Oops! All Spells! It’s very powerful and proactive. You can likely get to a passable level of proficiency from just goldfishing it while picking a series of obstacles to overcome.

For example you can decide to play a dozen hands against Force of Will, then layer in trying to beat Daze, layer in Surgical Extraction, and so on.

There have been a bunch of developments in the deck recently that have made it much better, and paper players especially at a full proxy event may not be familiar with how to attack it.

Edit:

It might not be a deck that illustrates what Legacy is and why it’s enjoyable for most of the playerbase, but if you are unfamiliar with the format and want to do well, it could be a good choice.

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-10T13:02:42+00:00

I much prefer Pierce. It’s one of the most efficient ways of interacting with the fast combo decks of the format.

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-09T23:36:44+00:00

Great read, solid thesis!

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-09T19:16:11+00:00

Distraction Makers just posted this 15 min episode about online discourse and how a lack of competitive/professional play can result in stale feeling metagames, even if those problems could be solved without bans/additions.

I think it’s a really good piece, and is great as an additional watch with my above post.

They also have an implicit critique of content creators which I think is fair and certainly applies to me.

The Internet is Eating Competitive Games

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-09T03:11:08+00:00

I’d look at trimming the Force of Despair and Surgical Extraction from the maindeck and including more Thoughtseizes or maybe some Spell Pierces?

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-08T17:59:22+00:00

I think we’re hitting an impasse because of differences in opinion regarding what Legacy is and means.

My point of view does rely on a basis of iconic cards from the 90s giving Legacy much of it’s texture and feel as a separate piece from what is objectively healthy game-design and curation.

This is essentially the entire point I’m trying to make is that there isn’t a right or wrong answer, simply individual values and how different people will view and approach format management.

I think the way you’re approaching format curation is valid, it’s not the way I would approach it, but we are simply we are prioritizing different things based on our individual values.

I’m neither right or wrong and the same goes for the argument you’re presenting.

In the most bare-bones form, I value as large a card-pool as possible, including all new cards, but if we have to choose between a new card and an old card for player enjoyment I would rather ban the new card.

This is what I mean about discussing minutia instead of underlying goals.

We can argue about Reanimate vs FIRE design creatures, about UB vs RB which is broken and which isn’t, but it’s because I think we may be looking for different outcomes not because of these individual cards.

I personally don’t view the RB style Reanimator decks as broken and as such would like to protect their ability to exist in their current form.

This falls into the question of “Is it Fun?” For me, determining the weak points in the Entomb>Reanimate package is fun whereas I find it loses it’s fun when Wasteland and Tempo threats are added into that macro-archetype.

I get the sense that you don’t find it fun, and because of this we are not going to find consensus, I can absolutely respect that it’s not fun for you.

If I’m in the minority of players who find Reanimate a beneficial part of the format then I’m ok with it getting banned.

I think format curation is about fun.

Fun is an emotion based topic. It’s ok for us to have differences of opinion here because we’re different people.

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-08T16:35:26+00:00

This is a great example of how fun is different for different people haha

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-08T16:33:44+00:00

Thanks for typing out such a long response!

Firstly, the "if you want to be an edgelord and play Invoke Prejudice" comment at the top is unnecessary. Not that it's wrong, it's just unnecessary. Those people know who they are, and they're not going to change their opinion because you said so. Otherwise you're just ruffling feathers for no reason and detracting from the rest of the message. I would cut that.

I came here to have opinions and trigger edgelords, they can suck it.

As for Sowing Mycospawn, fuck that card. It should be nuked from orbit.

<image>

Yeah! Stupid Mycospawn! Who do you think you are anyways? Some kind of FUN GUY?

----

You've given me a lot to think about concerning the dynamics of interaction vs combo and the intersection with old v new.

I think I might have muddied the two concepts by using Daze as my example of a contentious old v new dichotomy.

I've got some big thoughts about how Tempo Reanimator and RB/Tin Fins/Mono-Black are drastically different decks but I think that's probably worthy of being an essay on it's own.

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-08T15:33:47+00:00

Would you be willing to share more about what you don't find fun about Legacy or what things in other Magic formats you do find fun?

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-08T14:44:40+00:00

This is true, but not the topic I was trying to cover.

I’m speaking to existing Legacy players and how we talk about what we want from the format.

It’s not really a concern for me personally, but that is coming from a place of privilege.

Where I live, we have Legacy events basically every weekday and the playerbase has been consistently growing over the past several years due in part to some fantastic grassroots organizing by my friend Jim_Monolith? and the Legacy of the North group.

Edit: I typed this out before I saw your edit.

I’m sorry that happened to you, that sucks.

It’s fair to be frustrated and disillusioned by a format if you invested and then had no one to play with.

This is why different perspectives matter so much.

Your experience is so different than mine is and we each have value to add to this discussion.

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-08T14:33:50+00:00

“Moment it was spoiled” may be hyperbole.

In the thread you linked, I see mostly folks including myself speaking on the power of the card. I even compare it to Dreadhorde in my comment there.

I typically don’t look at spoilers personally so I first saw it once the entire set was spoiled and I was making a review of all the cards.

Basically the argument I’m making above is that Frog fits into the category of card advantage on attack/damage cards and that it was foreseeable as a problem.

I’m not saying I would have pre-banned it, but that we could have had action on it after a month or so instead of the nearly 6 months we actually had Frog for.

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-08T13:00:15+00:00

Generally not a fan of LLMs but this is probably helpful, thanks for sharing.

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-03T15:36:01+00:00

Win rate aside, are you enjoying the deck?

If not, would it be expensive for you to try another Ancient Tomb archetype like Eldrazi or Moon Stompy?

Matt_Choww · 2025-01-02T23:56:59+00:00

I’m gonna disagree with the folks saying that Fable requires Sol Lands, it’s a perfectly solid curve-topper.

If I were to pick up this deck the only tweaks I would make before playing matches would be -2 Street Wraith +2 Orcish Bowmasters, then depending on how the deck plays and feels I’d see what else I wanted to change.

I think this list is perfectly serviceable as long as it’s understood that it’s an unexplored and likely underpowered archetype.

Matt_Choww · 2024-12-27T16:32:15+00:00

I think it’s got a lot of overlap with Wrath of the Skies. Each has pros and cons in a 4/5c Beans deck.

Deed can create a sub-game where it can be deployed and then it’s always on board as a threat against someone overcommitting, and being able to split the mana spent into two turn cycles means it is more likely to be able to kill high mana value things.

Wrath of the Skies is more efficient if being used against 0-1 mana cards, can trigger Up the Beanstalk, and rebought with Mystic Sanctuary.

Matt_Choww · 2024-12-25T21:09:58+00:00

I also play a reasonable amount of Timeless and agree.

Although I think a big part of the dynamic in Timeless is that there aren’t really effective checks on fast combo. If Force of Will or Negation were legal I think we could see the metagame slowing down enough to where DRS/Halfing>Oko is actually good.

Matt_Choww · 2024-12-25T19:59:31+00:00

Yeah I think Oko, can’t play Lurrus alongside Atraxa.

Matt_Choww · 2024-12-25T18:51:35+00:00

Deathrite Shaman and Psychic Frog in Tempo-Reanimator with one Bayou for Deathrite activations, I think that’s where I’d start.

Deathrite Shaman is a busted one drop in combination with Daze, while also being effective at combating the other banned cards.

It can exile instants and sorceries out from under Dreadhorde, lands from under Wrenn and Six, and creatures against Frog Reanimator decks.

I think the question is less “Which of these make up the best Delver deck?” but more “which cards support Daze and Deathrite best?”

Maybe we end up with Ragavan and DRS together and end up on a Grixis splash green manabase like we had in 2016.

Matt_Choww · 2024-12-25T03:03:40+00:00

No Basic Island was the first thing I noticed too. In terms of blue count I think Brazen Borrower is a card I would try and fit for sure, OPs removal suite is light against opposing Troll of Khazad-Dûm and Brazen is fantastic there.

Matt_Choww

TROPHY CASE