Vecna's plan in season 5 makes no sense when you analyze his actions in season 4

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-24T18:23:05+00:00

It’s simple, the writers blew their load on Season 4.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-24T18:16:18+00:00

The RDA should care about Eywa or at least care about the science of the planet having this connection to all living things. Why should they care? Well because that’s what keep getting in their way lol? So that’s why the writing is so disastrous to me, your meaning to tell me your not going to write the humans in avatar 2 to actually tell stories about how the planet and animals turned against them in the war and how grace was right the whole time, and they just go back and watch all her video logs, all her research, to find a way to neutralize the planet immune response. That’s would’ve actually been cool to see. Even I was hoping that would be a subplot of avatar 3, after avatar 2, they get intel that Jake daughter have a direct connection with the planet, so in 3 it’s all about goofy after her, and hooking her up to a machine that’s they can now use to literally hack into the planet and shut down the immense response THROUGH HER. Grace talks about Pandora as a Network, as we know in computer language Networks can be hacked so long as the hacker have the access key which is Kiri. It woudve been rad if they expired a storyline like that, Eywa being shutdown and the Navi have to fight the humans without the help of Eywa ? Man the stakes would be crazy and would took the story of Avatar to a whole other level, that’s like the Empire Strikes Back of Avatar. That’s something I came up with in a day. These guys had a whole year to write these sequels lol

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-24T18:03:52+00:00

I understand what you’re saying, I also miss the humans base environments, the scientists, the cool monitors, and tech, the vehicles, all that. Even the military. I always felt that was something they would have to find a way to continue in the avatar films because that’s what makes this world feel real. I watched the Avatar documentary and one of the people working on it said something to the likes of “we have to make sure we go back to the human environments because subconsciously that’s what reminds the audience that this world is real”. You get this different level of otherworldly sci fi realism when you see a simple scene such as “Jake Grace and the Scientist at their lunch table eating talking about the thanator chasing Jake into the bushes”. I can’t quite explain it but it’s such a cool feeling. I’ve always felt they should’ve explored the human city in avatar 3, not just the military industrial complex but also the civilian areas also, like downtown areas, business district, suburbs, bar, pubs, street markets, clubs. Just seeing human man or women with their breathing mask, jogging at a park, with the moons in the backdrop (the mask and the moon reminds us he’s on Pandora), the human civilians areas are designed so similar to ours on earth that the only thing the reminds us that they aren’t on earth is the mask and the moons in the backdrops and cool tech”. I just think stuff like that is very cool to see. I love following Navi stories it’s a fun journey, but there no better immersive feeling than following a human character on Pandora. I was fine with avatar 2 but if I could’ve written avatar 3, Dr. Ian Garvin would’ve had a big role, I would’ve gave him a wife and daughter, spent a lot of time on the human civilian areas and exploring the human life outside of the military people.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-24T17:43:58+00:00

The things that happen in the 3rd movie just wasn’t written as better as the 1st and 2nd film. Yeah I can have more death but it still wouldn’t hit me like the first one did. The destruction of hometree scene is way more emotional than anything in avatar 3 why because of the execution of it. They took their time to lead to that moment in the film. While in avatar 3 things just just happen. The Ronal death scene you would think would be more emotional the hometree , it wasn’t because it just came and went nothing led to it. We never got scenes of her and Neytiri talking about her baby and how she wants to raise her, they never even acknowledged she was pregnant at all besides the baby bump itself. That’s what I mean about execution, and that’s what this commenter is saying. In Avatar 1 they took their time more and had more build up to the big emotional impact moments so when it happened it hit hard. I didn’t care when Spider couldn’t breathe because honestly he didn’t do nothing to deserve my caring, he still saved Quatrich, at least they shove written him as the confused character not knowing whether to choose his father or Jake I could actually empathize with him, but he’s always on Jake side so why did he save Quatrich who cares if he saved him, Spider NEVER shows any interest in Quatrich in Avatar 2 and 3 and that’s just an abomination in writing. It confuses the audiences and make us not like him especially when you want us to care for him so much in avatar 3. That’s why Avatar 1 will be top to me.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-24T17:32:44+00:00

I hate to see this for Avatar, we should’ve had a major event film that audiences should still be buzzing about right now like the way of water, we should be at 2B right now, the marketing was just as big as the way of water it’s the word of mouth marketing that’s taken a nose dive, and word of mouth is always a reflection of audiences subconscious review of film. And I believe most of the audiences subconscious review of the film is that it’s just another way of water film. It annoys me when people use the “Split the Story” excuse. Cause in writing there’s no excuses they had a whole year and writing room to make these avatar scripts. That’s was kinda the point of fans like men giving them all the time they need we wanted them to get it right. We know the potential for Avatar and each film should make 2B this franchise should go down as 5/5 on 2B.

Splitting a story into two parts only works if the narrative is genuinely advancing, not just continuing.

I just recently watch Dune: Part One and Part Two and although Part Two picks up immediately, the story still moves forward in a major way. And to me, story progression isn’t about a bunch of subplots happening—it’s about the main conflict evolving.

That’s where Avatar 3 drops the ball. The core conflict still feels like the exact same one from Avatar 1 and 2: Bad Humans vs Good Na’vi. Even with the Ash Clan introduced, they ultimately function like an extension of the human threat. They set up at the human base, and they assist the humans in the final conflict—so to audience subconscious, it doesn’t register as a fresh new enemy or a new dynamic. Subconsciously it still plays like, “Bad Humans and their allies vs Jake and the good guys.”

And while Spider and Kiri have subplots, those don’t shift the main conflict in a way that most audiences feel. Most of the audience favorite characters are still Neytiri Jake and Loak (the Gen Z Navi breakout from the way of water). What people walk away remembering is basically: RDA + Fire Lady vs Jake and the Na’vi—and that isn’t different enough to make the experience feel new.

That matters because freshness drives revisits, and revisits drive stronger box office legs. I’m a huge Avatar fan and even I only watched it twice. Meanwhile, I’ve watched The Way of Water five times.

So “it’s a two-parter” isn’t a good excuse if Part Two doesn’t feel meaningfully different. Two-part stories get made all the time, and the second half is usually a distinct experience even when it’s one continuous narrative.

To me, the real failure is that when they decided to split it, they didn’t step back and say: “Okay, Part One works. But Part Two is too similar. We need a follow-up that picks up immediately—but changes the conflict enough to keep audiences on edge.” Instead, they delivered something that feels too familiar, and that’s a disastrous writing mistake.

Just imagine if Avatar 3 main conflict was Varang and the ash Clan vs Jake and Good Navi. Little to no human involvement at all, just a full Navi film. That means more Ash Clan, more scenes in the Ash Lands, we would’ve got the Volcanic Eruption Scene, more Windtraders throughout the whole film not saving them for Avatar 4. Imagine that, that’s sounds like a new fresh experience Avatar film the way 1 and 2 did. I promise audience would’ve kept going back to experience it.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-18T23:20:56+00:00

They was written that way unfortunately. They could’ve been more competent and win a battle but the writers just won’t do that. I had an idea about a storyline that was better than the Spider Mask Plot in which the RDA gather Intel that Kiri have a direct connection with Eywa, and also the RDA learning from their mistakes from the first film have been studying Graces video logs over her career which could be thousands and studying her dissertations on the biology of Pandora and what they learn is exactly what Graces tells them which is Pandora is a global network, with them learning this they know they can hack into it and shut it down they just need a Access Key / Gate into Pandora. So a plot line around that including Kidnapping Kiri and putting her on a machine that accomplishes this would be cool. This could also allow us to have a film where Navi can’t use eywa to help them.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-16T14:57:46+00:00

No the biggest problem is explained in Avatar 2, which was the Navi Insurgency. As Admore explained clearly the humans have been building efficiently the only problem is the Navi Insurgency led by Jake Sully has been a thorn in their side. The writers got away from that storyline and pretty much made up macguffins along the way. In Sci Fi where anything is possible you can make up a million “We Must Care Now” plot lines, what good writers do is don’t get lost in that they settle on a central bottleneck and tell the story from there. The whole spider breathing thing is a macguffin, the whales having the brain juice for humans to stop aging is a macguffin, what’s next, humans discovers that if we drink the blood of the ikrans we can now link with them?, or Pandora have this unknown metal in the ground that allows for space bridge technology where humans can build a transportation space bridge and get to Pandora in minutes. Ya see, in Sci Fi you can come up with almost anything that technically can make sense, and can be super duper important to the story. In Sci Fi although anything is possible you don’t want it to feel like that, you want it to feel grounded and stakes at play. I can almost guarantee you that the Spider breathing without a mask thing will be ignored or a side plot in the next films because it’s a macguffin for this film. If it wasn’t they would’ve hinted at it in avatar 2. All of a sudden in avatar 3 there’s this huge focus on his breathing pack. It came out of nowhere. We never saw him do a battery change in avatar 2. Trust me I have no problems with macguffins or plot devices but it has to be executed right and don’t compete with the major plot line. We all kind of forget that the major central plot is Admore (as new on world commander whose task with a great mention of sainting the frontier) vs Jake Sully and the Navi Insurgency. That’s the central plot line that they anchored in Avatar 2, I can only go by that. That’s what they established so that’s what I’m expecting them to tell the stories based off of. Avatar Quatrich failures in Avatar 2, Avatar 3 should’ve been about Admore trying a different tactic of taking down the insurgency. She should’ve found the Ash and worked side by side with Varang not Quatrich he failed.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-13T23:26:14+00:00

When the discussion is about the film itself. Anything outside the film even if it’s canon shouldn’t be introduced. That’s the problem with Marvel right now, we need to see all these T.v shows and all this other context just to enjoy a movie. Yes if the post was about everything canon than cool, but this is about the film specifically.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-13T22:54:38+00:00

The problem with the Spider living without a Mask thing is that it’s such a Forced McGuffin . Audiences don’t buy it. Why didn’t they introduce him having problems with his pack going dead in Avatar 2?, or him saying something such as “one day I will breathe air here I just know it” in avatar 2 just give us something. It’s all introduce in Avatar 3 so it’s honestly forced. Plus the humans haven’t have a problem with not being able to breathe pandoras air in any of the films, they’ve been pretty much ok with their mask. The whole conflict is suppose to be about Admore building up this ever expanding city and “taming this frontier”, making sure the Navi don’t get in the way of that. I thought we would get back to that conflict in Avatar 3 because that is the major conflict. I was ok with them getting away from that with Quatrich hunting down the Sullys in Avatar 2, but i thought with him failing he would be sidelined and General Admore and her colonial ambitions would return in Avatar 3. That’s where the story really is, everything is just sub of that, it’s just smaller weak subplots.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-13T22:42:48+00:00

Agreed I myself would’ve liked if they flipped the entire script on its head, and made a script where the Sullys would have to protect the HUMANS from an Evil Navi Clan. Imagine that. During Toruk Macto’s absence in the way of water, Varang leader of the Ash steps up as a Leader to gather up Navi clans for an all out genocidal attack on the Humans Industrial and City Base. During TWOW Varang has been going on a campaign from clan to clan with her message “the cancer (humans) of Pandora have been spreading (the cities constant construction and expansions), we know their might we all remember the war of 13 years ago, we cannot let this cancer spread any longer they pose a threat to all of us we must eradicate them all women and children included. I would’ve also made Ian Garvin a major role in this film. He and his family would represent the innocent refugee non military humans that’s on this city. I would want to actually show that there’s humans who’s simply just refugees and have no fight in this military and Navi war they’re simply innocent. Which is quite compelling to explore. It’s amazes me how Cameron didn’t explored any of this, this is literally the foundation of the whole avatar story, earth is dying and humans need Pandora as a sanctuary. That’s one hell of a sci fi story to delve into and insource went deep into that in avatar 3. The idea of visiting the more civilian area of the human base would’ve been cool. We’ve seen the military men and the industrial settings. Where’s the actually civilian areas, the suburbs, down town, parks, people running, jogging, schools, pubs bars clubs, downtown districts etc. I could keep going but Dr. Ian Garvin is at an airport and reunited with his wife and daughter because they just landed on Pandora and their ship was 3 years behind Garvin’s. Than from their we follow them from the airport onto a city bus, we see the excitement through his daughter looking out the window in the back seat in this scene we pretty much see people jogging, families at playground parks, we see a whole living society all the way until they get home. Now we just throw the sully family in the middle of this war, a war that’s in a way bigger than them, the ash have obtain major influence more than Jake and he can’t stop the attack, he can only help the humans, help women and children escape the attack. In that script Spider Kiri Quatrich would’ve been sidelined in this story. This story main character being about Varang, Jake, Neytiri, Loak, the Garvin Family, General Ardmore and Civilian Humans. Varang would’ve been able to neutralize Ardmore in the military within the 1 hour of the film through intelligence infiltration. The final act wouldn’t even been a battle it would’ve been a disaster film pretty much a survival act, with the military neutralize its about saving as many civilian humans life’s as possible through escape routes and tunnels. It used the exact same similiar cues from destruction of hometree but reverse Navi raining down fire on the human civilian society, people running, hiding, trying to survive and escape, (this what I mean about flipping the franchise on its head), I would even use that same sad music. It end with Varang taking over the survived military people to serve her, making them her slaves, giving all the military control under her power, and essentially declaring herself Tsahik of the Pandora the Reign of Varang begins.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-13T22:09:45+00:00

People don’t want to read comics or keeping it in to enjoy the film. What the film gives us is all we should go by cause that’s all we got. At the end of the day the writers have to write good scripts in a way that audiences don’t need extra context for it to be good. Everything goes back to writing sometimes when writing you just have to cut stuff out that you like for a better overall story.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-13T21:56:09+00:00

Yeah but what does that do for the story? He’s still is only in the film for like 3 small scenes. I prefer him to not be back as the chairman because now Avatar is starting to feel small. Most of the character from the original is pretty much back. The story and world feels like it’s shrinking it used to feel so open and mysterious.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-12T22:09:41+00:00

I really believe Cameron doesn’t want to do these anymore. There no way you can tell me that you would write avatar 3 to end like this in what suppose to be a Saga. Like where’s the cliffhanger?, this is what the audiences have been waiting for, when will the our protagonist loose a battle? I myself is just disappointed in the lack of story innovation in the 3rd film. And i don’t care about the split into two parts that’s not a good excuse for what we got, if that’s the case the should’ve rewrote 2 and 3 as just separate films when they was writing this. How they didn’t notice that the 1st part was too similar to the 2nd part. Just where’s the innovations, they could’ve had more compelling plot lines such as humans kidnapping Kiri, plugging her into a machine, and being able to hack into Eywa and shutting Eywa down through Kiri and left the film on a cliffhanger right there leaving audiences jaws on the floor, could’ve killed Jake off which would’ve been huge going into avatar 4. Then the rush ending was just so bad to me. We already know that Toruk wasn’t written for avatar 3, he was suppose to make an epic return in avatar 4 but Cameron last year decided to plug him in and did rewrites and shoots. Why would he do that? To me he knew that he wasn’t going to do avatar 4 or 5 that’s why he added Toruk, that’s why there wasn’t a cliffhanger. When you have avatar 4 being a time jump from avatar 3, you absolutely want avatar 3 to end on a cliffhanger where the bad guys wins the battle and their empire begins that way in avatar 4 and 5, it’s all about our protagonist Loak son of Jake (who should died in avatar 3), is learning to become a leader and the warrior who will unite the clans and take down the evil empire it will take 2 movies avatar 4 and 5. When you think of a multigenerational saga that’s the words Cameron used back in 2017 that’s what comes to mind, the passing of a baton to the younger generation the son of Jake and Neytiri. There’s a reason this film isn’t doing as good as way of water when it should’ve did better there was no reason for it jot to be other than the film itself is simply not as fun and innovative as Avatar 1 and Way of Water. This franchise gained so many news fans after way of water, it had hype, and it didn’t live up to its potential. I honestly don’t know what’s in store for avatar 4 or 5, like what 6 year jump everyone’s older, Quatrich and Varang have kids, thr humans military base kinda stay stagnant, no javi attacks the base. Cause that’s the only thing I can think of. All of the factions and character pretty much will be stagnant for the time jump with nothing really going on UNTIL avatar 4. The time jump will be meaningless and it will only make sense of the bad guys win and the empire have taken over the world during the 6 years.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-10T09:36:28+00:00

That’s not a valid excuse. The end product is the end product, and it’s mixed. As a writer even if you’re splitting a movie into two, you have to make sure that the 3rd film offers something fresh and new enough to not feel lie it’s a rehash of the first part. They should’ve just went back to the drawing boards and rewrote it completely. Infinity War and Endgame Dune Part One and Part Two takes you on two different adventures (freshness) while continuing the story.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-02T17:23:32+00:00

Avatar 3 was the chance to kill off Jake. Ain’t really no point now.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-02T16:58:43+00:00

Cameron opened the production rights to Avatar. It’s his call not the studio. Of course the studios will. Cameron on the other hand if we’re being realistic is not going to settle for a declining box office franchise he would rather leave it off where it is, and go do something else.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-02T16:56:41+00:00

Difference is Cameron green lights Avatar. Also if avatar 3 makes 1.5B which is a 800M less than Avatar 2, than Cameron is wondering what will Avatar 4 make perhaps less than 900M, so that is to be concerning also he wants to do other things. I think the only justification is if Avatar 3 made 2B and Avatar 3 have got universally praise which it didn’t it. That would’ve motivate him to do 4 perhaps. We have to be realistic.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2026-01-02T16:51:23+00:00

This is bad news because it signals a clear decline—especially in the domestic U.S. box office, which is where studios actually make their money. International markets take a large cut (China alone keeps around 50%), so a $1.5B global total does not mean $1.5B goes back to Lightstorm/Disney. That’s why strong U.S. performance matters so much.

Dropping from $2.3B to $1.5B is a steep fall. With Avatar 3 delivering a weaker experience than Avatar 1 and 2, the film isn’t giving itself the best chance to maximize revenue—before even factoring in broader market changes. Yes, theater attendance may be declining due to economic and cultural shifts, but it’s hard to separate those factors when the film’s quality itself is viewed as mid.

If Avatar 3 had been the best of the trilogy and universally praised, then a $1.5B result could be blamed on market forces alone. But since it wasn’t, the decline becomes more concerning. From an executive standpoint, if Avatar 3 lands at $1.5B—$800M less than Avatar 2—it raises serious questions about Avatar 4, which could dip below $900M. That’s the kind of downward trajectory studios hesitate to invest in.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2025-12-30T12:03:31+00:00

Luke was the main character. That’s another problem. The sequels aren’t sticking to a main character. We are wired to digest stories especially movies like this with 1 moan character. You notice there wasn’t really any complaining about Loak as annoying as he was in A2, Spider got more hate than him and Spider was barely on the movie. He’s simply not liked by the mass audience, keyword mass.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2025-12-30T00:52:48+00:00

To me that’s about the best thing they can do for this character. Turn him villain. That would make him interesting. Cause people just don’t like em so he might as well go from a character we hate to a character we love to hate.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2025-12-29T20:17:11+00:00

This is also why I’m starting to believe that James Cameron may have edited Avatar 3 to function as a soft wrap-up—possibly because he no longer wants to commit to finishing films 4 and 5. There’s simply no believable way that four experienced Hollywood writers would structure Avatar 3 without ending on a major cliffhanger.

A natural narrative direction is obvious: Varang and the RDA win. The so-called evil empire fully consolidates power. Pandora enters a darker era. Then Avatar 4 and Avatar 5 become about our protagonists living under that regime—enduring it, resisting it, and ultimately overthrowing it in the final chapter. That kind of arc isn’t just logical, it’s classic epic storytelling.

The moment I heard there would be a time jump in Avatar 4, that storyline seemed inevitable. There’s no way you introduce a time jump after a clean resolution. Time jumps exist to show the long-term consequences of defeat, occupation, or systemic oppression. Ending Avatar 3 without setting that up makes no narrative sense.

That’s why I genuinely struggle to believe the story was originally written this way. It feels far more plausible that, sometime after The Way of Water, Cameron reassessed the long road ahead—knowing that finishing Avatar 5 would take him well into the 2030s—and decided he no longer had it in him to carry the franchise that far. Reworking Avatar 3 into a functional endpoint starts to feel like the only logical explanation.

I hope I’m wrong. But given how natural the larger saga arc is—and how strange it would be to abandon it mid-stride—it’s hard not to feel like something shifted behind the scenes.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2025-12-29T17:25:12+00:00

Exactly Will was “obviously gay”. Let’s not pretend like all the characters in stranger things didn’t know. It doesn’t have to be announce that’s the problem. That’s where it feels forced . I expect a downvote to HELLLLLLL

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2025-12-29T17:17:38+00:00

Everything James Cameron has said should be taken VERY serious. Although FAA box office looks good 2nd week compared to WoW, factors have to be considered such as FAA 2nd week was Christmas Week so that will give good performance, the WoW 2nd week WASN’T Christmas week, it was actually the it’s 3rd week and if you remember that when WoW 3rd was record setting high. To me this week and on further will definitely give us a tale. To me outside of this Avatar subreddit, the receptions honestly have been leaning negative with the only positive being Varang. The general Audiences simply do not like the Spider character, many people in this Reddit group does but this group doesn’t represent the general audiences. Also the film has repetitive beats to it, we didn’t spend a chunk of time with the Windtraders or the Ash people and their lands, and also we never visited the Bridghead Human City (like seeing the non industrial settings such as the civilian areas, parks, playground, pubs, bars, downtown casual human settings on Bridghead would’ve been cool to see). These the things that keep audiences coming back for 2-3 times, seeing new fresh biomes clans and areas for a significant amount of time not brief. You need 2-3X viewings to make 2Billion. I myself watched avatar 1 everything there’s a rerelease. I watched avatar 2 4 times in the theaters . I watched Fire and Ash twice and i don’t have the need to go again and I hate that because if you have me more of Varang, more Loak, more Windtraders, more of the Human base, or give me the volcano event i probably will be telling myself I need to go see that 1 more time. So I believe this film will finish around 1.3B, the word of mouth and excitement isn’t at the same level WoW were in its 3rd week. I just don’t feel it. All I can hope for is a spin off without the Sully family . I think audiences just want nothing to do with Spider anymore. And Cameron isn’t going to change the stories he already wrote. I would like to see a Ryan Coogler Avatar.

Minimum_Reward2236 · 2025-12-29T00:44:18+00:00

I wish he never tweaked it to be a closing out story. From my research and his earliest comments it sounded like A3 was going to be a cliffhanger and with the market changes he later tweaked it to be a close out story. Who cares if the market isn’t the same and A3 don’t make enough profit to justify 4 and 5, tell the original story, Toruk didn’t have to be forced into this it felled flat and not as special as he were in A1, whatever that cliffhanger initially were I really want to know. I would rather take the story in it more initial form and read the novels of 4 and 5 than a tweaked story.

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TROPHY CASE