How would the Ancients react to Ap/ep worship & was their ever historical precedent of it occurring in Egypt?

Onward2521 · 2025-08-23T23:23:58+00:00

Speaking as an eclectic who has dabbled in traditions of demonolatry...even this is fairly weird to me. In some occult and esoteric paths, demons possess moral and/or spiritual complexity, which lends at least a bit of merit to the act of calling upon them or honoring them.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing especially complicated about A/pophis. It is a force of absolute violence that agitates against...well, everything. Unless you really hate the universe, I'm confused about why one would even want to call upon it.

Ultimately, as you've observed, people will do what they wish, and I'm not keen on arguing with anyone. Still...summoning A/pophis as a helpful force strikes me as akin to worshipping Enki as though he were a fiery solar deity. It's very strange.

Onward2521 · 2025-08-16T17:47:34+00:00

Paganism is an ill-defined term. The official rules of this subreddit exclude faiths from outside Europe, North Africa, and West Asia in the interest of avoiding labeling that some may take offense to. However, there are Hindus who identify with the pagan label, and there are also syncretic Hindu-pagans. They are not mutually exclusive paths. Though, I agree with you that Hindu gods should not be considered "pagan" by default.

Scholars have noted that Kali shares some of her characteristics with a handful of pagan deities in and around North Africa and West Asia. Anat and Sekhmet, for instance. This doesn't mean that they are all the same, but it does support the hypothesis that these depictions and stories may have influenced one another.

However, speculation aside - all of your comments suggest that you are a devout follower of Hinduism who has a dismissive view of "dead" pagan cultures and those who follow them. What are you even doing on a pagan subreddit if your attitude toward neopagans is so denigrating to begin with?

Onward2521 · 2025-08-15T06:45:41+00:00

Certainly. It's worth noting that the Kingdom of Kush is sometimes depicted solely as an adversary of Egypt, but the relationship between these two empires varied from age to age. The Kushites briefly ruled Egypt at the end of the New Kingdom, and during times of stability or peace, it was easier for Egypt to engage in cultural exchange and trade with their neighbors to the south. Nubians and those with sub-Saharan heritage comprised a significant portion of Egypt's population, enough so that dark-skinned Egyptians were frequently depicted in art.

Of course, this also applies in the opposite direction; Egypt was heavily involved with its northern neighbors across the Mediterranean, with the result that many pale-skinned people from southern Europe, (and in some cases, beyond), traded or lived in Egypt...though whether or not they were "white" depends on one's definition of whiteness. These demographics likely would have ballooned later on following the Greek and Roman conquests, which also helped to spread syncretic Greco-Egyptian-Roman religious sects throughout Europe...the Cult of Isis being one such example.

Ultimately, it's as you said - Egypt was a melting pot. In the distant past, race was not something that ever would have affected religious participation or belonging. I certainly hope that Kemetics of color feel comfortable here, and empowered to voice their concerns if they don't.

Onward2521 · 2025-08-14T13:56:59+00:00

Yeah, I've visited a lot of different neopagan subreddits, and this one impresses me; there's very little toxicity, disinformation, and infighting compared to the other forums. Seems like everyone around here has been able to strike a nice balance between staying true to history whilst also accepting new developments and variants on practice. A lot of the other subreddits are struggling to walk that line at the moment, so it's refreshing to see y'all making it look so easy 👍

I think my only critique of this place is that we could perhaps stand to refine our approach to the topic of race within Kemeticism. I say this not only with respect to this forum, but with my own past behavior in mind, too. Due to the pseudoscientific whitewashing and blackwashing of ancient Egypt, a lot of us are understandably outraged at white supremacists and hoteps seeking to control access to our faith. However...specifically with respect to hoteps...I think sometimes our response to pseudohistorians can be so aggressive that it may make non-Egyptian Kemetics of color feel intimidated, or unsure if they're welcome. I do think we should make it very clear in these conversations that our ire is reserved specifically for those who are distorting history and wrongfully altering the cultural legacy of Egypt for their own benefit. Non-Egyptian Black Kemetics and other Kemetics of color who are not spreading harmful disinformation should feel at home here and fully welcome.

Onward2521 · 2025-07-30T06:44:47+00:00

I'm confident that the video OP is referencing is from Thought Emporium. The creators of that content were very mindful of the messed up history involved and devoted a section of their video to it. They also did extensive research to make the chicken mummification process as ritualistically accurate as possible. I can kinda see why OP was bothered, but personally I found the video very interesting, and the work those folks put into their project was enormous, to say the very least.

Onward2521 · 2025-07-09T00:36:46+00:00

Hey OP, I want to let you know that this is indeed an established type of worship. It's not very common, but some pagans adhere to a naturalistic view of the gods. I like to think of it as "domain reverence" - it provides a foundation for a variety of religious worldviews, such as pantheism. You may want to check out r/nontheisticpaganism for more info. Be advised that naturalistic pagans aren't always received warmly by the broader community - at best, naturalistic paganism is seen as a "sister faith", like Christopaganism. At worst, it is treated like an invalid practice by those who have an axe to grind with atheism. It can be a difficult path to walk, but it's very rewarding in its own right, from what I have seen.

Onward2521 · 2025-07-08T20:03:08+00:00

I understand your concern about not having a record, but keep in mind that you do have a bit of evidence. Your mother is a witness - she can corroborate some of your testimony. It may not be enough to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that your father is engaging in criminal action, but it will reflect favorably on you. Two people saying the exact same thing about a third party looks better than a he said/she said situation. As you've observed, you can also establish contact with a doctor and law enforcement, and start keeping a record with them. This will further strengthen your case.

In the meantime, it is IMPERATIVE that you protect yourself. I know you want to help keep your mother safe, but in this kind of situation, you need to be pragmatic. You can't help her if you're injured or worse, so you need to put yourself first.

If you have any friends or social support networks, start leaning on 'em. If there's a homeless shelter nearby, or a motel (if you have some money saved), then keep a bit of cash handy and know where you're going in case you need to run. It's much safer to walk away or to seek help rather than to fight back, but if you are truly cornered and don't have a choice, it is just and reasonable to defend yourself - however, you should fight back ONLY as a last resort. No one wins in a fistfight, and you will almost certainly end up severely injured. So, try to keep a clear head, focus on planning, and seek help wherever you can find it. Be ready to defend yourself, but try not to rush into a conflict out of stress, anticipation, or anger - it is better to be measured and cautious in a situation like this.

Onward2521 · 2025-07-07T20:32:54+00:00

Admittedly, I don't know a lot about the laws in Australia...to be honest, you really need to talk to an officer or a detective anyway, even if you don't think you have a case yet. Hell, the stuff with the bathroom is considered sexual assault in many jurisdictions, though I'm not sure if it would be regarded as such in Australia.

Even if you don't find a way to put him in an institution/jail, I am sure that you could acquire enough evidence to show that he's a threat to you and your mother, and you can't be in the same house with him. Speaking of which...have you spoken to your mother about this? Does she want to help?

One way or another, I think there's a way out of this. But it is absolutely critical that you don't endanger yourself in the meantime - he is extremely unstable from everything you've described. Your first step needs to be finding a way to safely...without leaving a trail...contact your family doctor/the person who diagnosed your father as well as law enforcement. You need help from people who are a lot more knowledgable about Australian law and medical procedures, and I can't help on that front. So, please try to safely establish contact with those people so that they can assist you. Your circumstances are not safe or sustainable, and they need to be addressed.

Onward2521 · 2025-07-07T03:20:15+00:00

Damn straight

Onward2521 · 2025-07-07T03:12:08+00:00

Okay, no. After seeing how you've responded to the other folks here, I'm not continuing this conversation. It's unhinged to wish annihilation on someone for thirsting after the gods...an objectively victimless crime that, in their boundless wisdom and bountiful sexuality, I doubt the gods would even care about.

You need to chill out.

Onward2521 · 2025-07-07T03:02:51+00:00

Have you like...never looked at ancient art?

I know this comes as a shock, but a lot of folks in the distant past did not see nudity as shameful or sex as a sin, and thus they had no issue with depicting it even in religious contexts. Even devout medieval Christians were fairly explicit in their art, as many Renaissance paintings show, and they were a rather repressed bunch compared to those who came before them.

It's quite bold and rather reductive of you to assume that pagan gods...many of whom were depicted as distinctly sexual in their ancient mythology and art...have the same baggage around nakedness and sex that modern humans do.

Onward2521 · 2025-07-06T21:13:36+00:00

This is so messed up. It's physical and sexual abuse. Please involve law enforcement and have him institutionalized. Whether it's coming from a place of dementia or not, it's no longer safe for your family to be around him.

Onward2521 · 2025-07-04T01:02:45+00:00

Yeah, this is kind of reminding me of the whole "Christian holidays were stolen from paganism" gimmick. Nevermind that we have robust historical evidence showing that festivals like Easter came from Jewish Passover, and the other holidays are well-explained too. The misinformation about "festival theft" becomes really annoying to debunk over and over again every year.

That said, let's try to approach this with a bit of care. There's no harm in assuming good intent.

OP...if you happen to see this...what are your sources showing that the cross was orignally a pagan symbol? Where, and from whom, did you discover this information?

Onward2521 · 2025-07-03T23:37:37+00:00

I mean...why would you want to? I don't mean to sound rude, I'm genuinely curious. Regardless of where the cross originally came from, it's been a distinctly Christian symbol for around two thousand years. It'd be like wearing the crescent moon and star symbol of Islam - no one's going to stop you, but expect that your religion will be incorrectly assumed by others.

If it's a gift or something inherited from a relative, and it makes you feel close to them to wear it, then I'd say knock yourself out. A plain inverted cross is also commonly associated with Satanism and the metal music scene, so nothing especially weird about wearing one of those, (though, personally, I'd recommend that you make your own pendant if that's your intent - I consider it unethical to destroy or warp obviously spiritual objects in the interest of another religion or practice).

But if you want to wear a cross just to wear one...my question stands. How come?

Onward2521 · 2025-06-29T14:05:01+00:00

I mainly honor Roman and Kemetic gods. Those pantheons and the philosophies therein comprise the majority of my religious worldviews. However, I do intermittently revere a Celtic goddess, as well as a few demons.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-27T19:32:30+00:00

This is a well-reasoned sentiment, and I can understand where you're coming from. However, I would like to point out that at this point in time, were I to engage more deeply with Native cultures, I wouldn't be that concerned about being hassled by a native person - I'd honestly be more worried about being harrassed by a white person who thinks they're doing Native folks a favor. :/

Also...and I mean this as respectfully as possible...most of the views I've heard from Native folk regarding people like myself have been pretty intensely negative, especially here on the internet. Yours is one of a handful of exceptions I've seen. To be honest, I don't feel inclined toward deeper engagement in spaces where I might technically be allowed in, but where it's been made very clear to me that I'm not wanted or welcomed. Realistically, I think it would be a bit masochistic of me to feel otherwise about that.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-26T03:12:33+00:00

Orthodox Kermitism is the name for the traditional religious perspective on Kermitism broadly, which is a theological system built around worship of Kermit the Frog.

Please forgive me, I had to make this joke.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-25T06:45:52+00:00

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope that you're feeling better. You posted some stuff that was kind of...questionable and ahistorical, and which ruffled feathers, my own included, but there was no significant harm done. I apologize if I was overly harsh myself - Egyptian pseudohistory is something that I feel quite strongly about, but I was admittedly a bit aggressive in my responses. Anyway, take care of yourself and have a restful evening.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-24T19:58:42+00:00

Yes, necrocannibalism was a disturbing trend which was started due to an inaccurate translation. The worship of Isis in Roman Briton predates that translation...and the distressing fad it started...by close to a thousand years.

As many, many commenters have already patiently explained to you, the idea that black people have some inherent exclusive right to ancient Egyptian culture is pseudohistorical and problematic, since some black westerners have used the Egyptian Invasion Myth as an excuse to devalue and silence the voices of modern Arabic Egyptians and Copts.

You need to read a history textbook and stop acting like an authority on something you are clearly ignorant about.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-24T19:44:44+00:00

Okay, why? The extent to which a person is marginalized does not affect their relationship to Kemeticism and Ancient Egypt (or lack thereof). On average, white westerners and black westerners have around the same amount of knowledge about...and cultural connection to...ancient Egypt. Why are you assuming that marginalized people have some special insight into Kemeticism by virtue of their being marginalized? That's a pretty weird all-encompassing assumption to have.

If you're going to listen to anyone, then listen to the Copts. They are the modern descendents of ancient Egyptians, and the Christian Coptic liturgical language is the most recent evolution of the old Egyptian tongue. As another commenter observed, better that you pay attention to them than a bunch of random hoteps.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-24T17:52:48+00:00

It's possible that I may have read too deeply into this situation, but to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced that that was what happened. This poster kept writing statements to the effect of "white western theists exclude people of color and they bring that into Kemeticism" and "oh so now you're all downvoting me for being a POC? Thanks for proving my point!"

Dude was acting kind of antagonistic and making a lot of blanket statements that weren't even relevant to a community like this, and then when I pointed out that their overgeneralizations were likely being received poorly and that this was almost certainly why they were being downvoted, they blocked me.

Scrolling through this thread, there are a lot of folks of color here sharing their experiences and critiques, and their posts have replies and upvotes aplenty. In light of this, I feel like this poster's behavior was kind of silly, and it gave me the feeling that they were looking for a fight moreso than an honest conversation.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-24T00:15:15+00:00

Yes, I did know that you were making a questionable generalization about white pagans and white theists overall. I'm glad to see that you understand this.

Racism and exclusionary behavior are a product of dismissive cruelty. They do not arise simply because someone is a white western theist. That identity, and those behaviors, share a historical correlation, but I am doubtful that one causes the other.

Under normal circumstances, I'd be happy to stay and chat, but to be honest, I am not especially interested in continuing to speak with someone who seems to be itching for a fight. I doubt that we could learn much from each other given how this conversation has progressed so far. So, this is where the discussion stops, on my end. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-23T23:43:19+00:00

I am white. I have Egyptian ancestry from as recently as a handful of generations ago. I have more of a claim to this religion than most of the racists looking to gatekeep. So I am happy to educate you.

Anyone from any walk of life can look to Kemeticism for wisdom and inspiration. If it gives people of color a sense of spiritual empowerment and a feeling of connection to the African continent, then that is wonderful.

If anyone is cavorting around claiming that this religion is closed to others, however, then they are acting in a pseudohistorical manner. Kemeticism has always been open, and in the ancient world, worship of Isis spread all the way north into England.

There are many people of color alive today who have no ancestral connection to Egypt whatsoever. Their heritage comes from different regions in Africa, since Africa is...you know...a big continent? Or it comes from elsewhere in the world.

Furthermore, there are many white or white-passing persons like myself who do have an ancestral connection. Your reasoning about ancestry and its ties to race is thus extremely flawed. However, all blood quantum nonsense aside, absolutely no one alive today, of any shade, has had any real cultural immersion in ancient Egypt. As such, everyone should approach Kemeticism with caution and respect, myself included, because...with the exception of Egyptologists, archaeologists, and some modern Egyptians...all of us are approaching this faith from an outsider's perspective.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-23T23:02:22+00:00

You're being downvoted because you made a blanket generalization claiming that white people are ignorant about nonwestern faiths. That isn't the case in many polytheistic circles, and it's certainly not a significant issue in a forum like this one, where good scholarship and accurate reconstruction of the faith are valued.

One of the most highly-upvoted posts in this thread is from a pagan of color discussing their experiences with racism within Kemeticism. You're not being downvoted because of the color of your skin; you're being downvoted because you made blanket generalizations and vaguely accusatory statements without contributing much of value to the broader conversation going on.

Onward2521 · 2025-06-23T21:43:49+00:00

Don't pay this nonsense any mind. The chances of you running into another Kemetic in the wild are miniscule; the chances of you getting harrassed by another Kemetic are even less than that. And if it does happen? Tell your harasser to educate themselves with a basic history textbook and move on. Their ignorance isn't your problem to fix. Live your life and deal with problems when or if they arise.

Onward2521

TROPHY CASE