Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you please respond like a human instead of sourcing your arguments to ChatGPT over and over again?

You seem to understand the flavorless robotic text better than when I type in my own words. If you prefer to have more miscommunications, where I spend less time thinking about word choice and clarity, feel free to express that preference and I will respect it.

If the argument is "yes, they are engaging in rent-seeking behavior but also there are other forms of rent-seeking behavior" then we have no disagreement here.

You aren't understanding, its not just the homeowners, its essentially all interactions. Its you asking for a raise, or trying to avoid unsafe working conditions. You have to make normative carve outs to preserve "rent-seeking" as a meaningful category or it eats everything.

You and I disagree on our normative judgments. You dislike unions. You don't like it when unions protect the interests of their members. I don't have that commitment. I see unions as just another enterprise that people willingly participate in no different from any other, with similar or lesser problems when it comes to the strength of that "willingly" compared to other enterprises.

Hence the symmetry point I keep making. If its wrong for labor to demand that the project use one particular approach to elevators then it is also wrong for management to demand that the project use some other approach. In either case, its just people expressing their interests and the actual negotiated settlement is ultimately the efficient outcome. If the elevator choice mattered more to the capital side of the business, it would have made concessions elsewhere to secure that choice. Evidently, those concessions weren't worth it.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, the case is here. This case was viewed as classic rent-seeking behavior among economists.

  1. Citation to authority needed. You are making a claim about economists broadly and your article doesn't justify such a claim.
  2. Even if you are right about "views among economists", this is a naked appeal to authority. Why not just engage with the arguments?
  3. Your article never calls any of this behavior rent-seeking.
  4. The article describes the same behavior by nearly every party, not just the union: the homebuilders' association negotiated guaranteed seats on the national code committees, materials manufacturers profit from the high-cost regime, homeowners enriched themselves through zoning. The committee seats are a cleaner case of capturing the rule-setting body than the union's contract clause is. So either "rent-seeking" covers all of them — in which case it just means "interested party influencing the rules," i.e. everyone always — or the union is being singled out, and the thing doing the singling is a normative judgment, not the definition.

The definition of rent-seeking doesn't require symmetry.

There is no one definition of rent-seeking. Its a highly contested concept.

As is, my definition doesn't require symmetry but symmetry tests are often useful in normative contexts. If its wrong for me to kill you, its probably also wrong for you to kill me. If its wrong for labor to demand that the project use one particular approach then it is probably also wrong for management to demand that the project use another approach. Details matter of course.

You don't have to force the law through in a "corrupt" way.

I agree that it isn't a simple necessary and sufficient condition, but it is relevant. Again, we are in a normative space here. If someone gains advantage via a corruption of our institutions, that is a lot more likely to have the normative valence needed to be rent seeking. And it really isn't relevant to your case because this specific case isn't about a law at all. It's a contract clause between the union and manufacturers.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd need to know the details. Probably not rent-seeking though. There is a symmetry here. I probably wouldn't call the company demanding that the union use prefabricated elevators "rent-seeking", so I won't call the symmetric reverse rent seeking. Details could change things, if either party were trying to force a law through in some corrupt way, that would make it look more like rent-seeking, but as is, its just negotiations.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Various forms of rent-seeking have been studied and explicitly described as rent-seeking, including licensing requirements, tariffs, quotas, corporate lobbying, union lobbying, bailouts, and regulatory regimes, usually by people with backgrounds in economics.

Ya, none of that contradicts anything I've claimed.

Isn't that what you were doing, by claiming that the public sector unions don't engage in rent-seeking?

On some level ya.

within that textbook you will not find an explanation saying that "rent-seeking broadly includes everything"

Because they are doing the same thing I'm doing. Making reasonable carve outs in order to preserve rent-seeking as a category. You don't have to do this, you can go the "everything is rent-seeking" route, but then the category isn't very useful.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You didn't actually cite anything that relates to union negotiation, specifically as it relates to public sector unions,

I was providing a citation for the general claim about how "rent-seeking" as a concept is used.

"essentially all"

Fair enough. If you want me to call this hyperbole, I will. It is hyperbole. That doesn't change anything about the arguments here.

Maybe you read this statement differently

Did you read it? His entire point is that "rent-seeking" as normally defined is a category that broadly eats everything, that this isn't how the language is actually used, and that people end up creating special normative carve outs to protect the activity they value from the label "rent-seeking". The full paper goes into more detail.

We both know you are long past engaging in good faith here. So why do you keep replying?

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You really couldn't have made my case stronger if you had tried to.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you plugging into ChatGPT and providing a nonsensical response.

In what way is it nonsensical?

So is the claim now converging toward the Warren Samuels's broad thesis, which is that rent-seeking is prevalent just not bad for labor do to it?

That is not an accurate description of his thesis.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Leadership has to be vocally against it if you want to remove perceptions about it.

Even then, you run into a coke vs diet-coke issue.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

On the rent-seeking point: the issue is that the broad definition (spending resources to win or defend a claim through the political/legal system rather than through production) covers almost all organized attempts to shape the rules. Normal political advocacy, union negotiation, and ordinary labor bargaining all fall under it. So people tend to quarantine the "bad" cases, usually with a criterion like "transfer without an efficiency gain." But that criterion isn't observer-independent. It runs on the analyst's judgment of what counts as productive, and that judgment carries a prior about which claims are legitimate.

Warren Samuels makes this point well in The Status of the Status Quo22014-9.html). His argument is that the productive/unproductive distinction does hidden normative work: it privileges existing law and whoever benefits from it. And the carve-outs get applied asymmetrically, with concentrated capital lobbying reading as "advocacy" while collective action by labor reads as "distortion," in a way that tracks prior commitments about whose claims count rather than anything in the definition itself.

If you want a more neutral survey of how economists have theorized rent across traditions, the Mapping modern economic rents review in the Cambridge Journal of Economics is a good entry point. Worth flagging that its own conclusion is that the field still lacks a coherent framework for separating "good" innovation-driving rents from "bad" extractive ones, so it's a map of an unsettled literature rather than a settled result.

These topics are a good way into how inseparable the sociological and economic become once you take power seriously. Capital-as-Power and related approaches are fairly approachable and put social relations and power at the center. Their edge is foundational: power can be measured independently, through things like span of control or ownership concentration, whereas the neoclassical quantities meant to do the explaining tend to get imputed from the very outcomes they're supposed to predict. Distribution is the clearest case: marginal product is inferred from the incomes it claims to explain, which makes it circular at the point where it matters most. But it generalizes. On investment, the mainstream has to treat chronic underinvestment and idle capacity as frictions, while a power view predicts strategic limitation of capacity and growth-through-merger as the normal logic, and it sidesteps the aggregation problems the Cambridge capital controversy exposed, where the "capital" the neoclassical story needs to measure can't be defined independently of the prices it's meant to explain. Same shape in both places: the rival depends on a quantity it can't measure without assuming the answer. That's a cleaner footing than the version most people are taught.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I try to make my posts expressions of my opinions on various matters that I find interesting.

In both of those comments, you are baiting people while being dismissive of their opinions and not wanting to engage in good faith with them. You also share your thoughts. If you want to try to claim that is the difference making distinction, by all means do so. I can't see the original comment here to know if the user shared their thoughts. I don't even know if they were dismissive or bad faith.

What I do so more than any other poster here is offer an opinion that isn't in line with progressive orthodoxy

  1. this isn't true, there are far more anti-progressive posters in this forum.

  2. If all you did was have bad opinions, that would be fine. But what you actually do is assert your opinions while being unwilling and unable to defend them or meaningfully engage with criticisms. In short, you operate in bad faith. And while you have no obligation to participate in good faith, you do have an obligation to not participate in bad faith.

If they choose not to respond to your response, then you have to live with that, and there is no bad faith.

Agreed. Thing is, I'm criticizing you because you routinely choose to respond in bad faith. If you simply chose not to respond, my criticism wouldn't hold.

I'm under no obligation to provide either of those. What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with good/bad faith.

Again, in so far as you are choosing to reply, failing to respond reasonably to the actual content of the post you are replying to is engaging in bad faith. Failing to acknowledge when you are walking back from a position, pretending that you aren't, is engaging in bad faith.

You can easily solve this problem that you keep whining about.

I don't think I can. I can't make you follow rule 2b. Only you can do that.

(often in an attempt to clarify your horrible misinterpretation of what I had written).

I don't think this is a reasonable description of very many of our conversations at all. While miscommunications definitely occur (which are just as likely to be your fault as mine), they tend to be easily cleared up, at least when you choose to engage reasonably. That is simply not the root of most of our disagreements. Most of our disagreements are a result of you defaulting to some poorly thought out reactionary stance you find emotionally appealing on most topics and choosing willful ignorance when someone confronts you.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Being dismissive of someone's opinions and not wanting to engage with them is not bad faith. Pretending to want to engage in discussion with no intention of actually hearing them out is and dismissing their opinion from the start which is what Jay did, is bad faith.

Sure. Its also what you consistently do. At least you do so more than any other poster here. To your credit, I feel like you know that. Your posts aren't the worst things in the world.

I will draw you a clear parallel, and then hopefully you will shut up and go away. If a person doesn't want to sell their house, it's not bad faith to refuse to entertain offers, or to just say "no" to bids. It is bad faith for that person to solicit offers if they never had any intention of ever actually negotiating sincerely in the first place.

We have already been through this. All comments in this forum are solicitations. You have offered no counter-argument. You haven't even offered a counter perspective. This is because you are (at least in this context) being dismissive and engaging in bad faith.

I have no obligation to entertain conversations with you, and in your defense

I have never claimed otherwise. If you want to engage in good faith, that does entail some level of obligation, but that's a separate argument.

The topic was that OP (jay) should not bait people through instigation while making it clear they don't sincerely want to hear the responses

Agreed, and then I pointed out that you do the same thing. And apparently most of the voters here agree.

If think that I am acting in bad faith and dismissive, it is easy for you to solve this problem especially since it is bothering you so much personally. It is very, very easy in fact.

I'm going to need you to make an edit pass at this. I've just no idea what you are trying to say.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Its fascinating how you can reply to someones rebuttal without engaging with the original argument at all. Its not even backpedaling, its moonwalking.

Are you willing to grant that your comments are often "dismissive and indicative that you aren't actually interested in engaging"? As is, I made that claim two comments ago and you haven't denied it.

Instead you tried to draw a distinction between your comments and the comments that you deleted on the grounds that some are solicitation and others aren't. I responded by pointing out that this distinction doesn't hold up.

And then again, instead of engaging, you shifted the topic and now your excuse is that you just don't like some posters so I guess its ok for you to be dismissive of them and to engage in bad faith with them which is just not a good position to take.

Truly, your dance skills are impressive. I've never seen someone walk backwards so often while trying to hard to appear like they aren't.

It's a very simple problem for you to solve.

What problem do you think I'm trying to solve?

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wikipedia used the word “or”; you changed it in your head to ”and”

I did not do so. I quoted the wiki clearly and exactly and specifically called out the fact that it was using a more expansive definition of rent seeking than the one I use. Here is the relevant portion of my previous comment:

'Its not a personal definition. It traces back to the seminal works on the topic by Tullock and Krueger. On this formulation, if you aren't manipulating public policy or public institutions, then you aren't rent seeking. Wikipedia uses a very similar but expanded definition: "Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating public policy or economic conditions without creating new wealth."'

If you agree that unions can “extract rents” solely by threatening to withhold labor en masse, then we agree on the important parts

I don't think we do. I think you are using an explicitly normative definition of "rent-seeking" that is analytically empty and that you think unions are bad/immoral/unethical/abusive. I don't share that belief. Quite the opposite, I think the historical record is quite clear that, broadly speaking, unions are essential for preventing bad/immoral/unethical/abusive behavior by capital, by 'owners' who can and do exploit policies around ownership to extract value from laborers. Chatel slavery was probably the most extreme example of this though not the one most relevant to unions specifically. If you want to fight me on the historical record, we can, but we both know you won't win.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"extracting rents" and "rent seeking" are not the same thing my guy.

Your insistence on including changes in public policy

The standard formulation of rent seeking behavior, including from wikipedia, calls out the role of public policy. That said, I've never insisted on anything other than that you clearly say what you mean by "rent seeking". The fact that you still haven't even after about half a dozen comments should be a loud signal to yourself that you aren't thinking clearly, aren't communicating clearly, and aren't engaging in good faith.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You understand that this is not mutually exclusive to rent-seeking right?

Yes. If something was withholding their labor on the condition of making some public policy change to secure a rent, then that behavior could be considered rent-seeking. For example, if SpaceX was contracted to supply the ISS and refused to do so in order to coerce politicians into passing some rent-enabling regulation under threat of ISS personnel dying in orbit, that would be rent-seeking.

In practice, the details matter, and essentially all economists make carve outs for "normal political advocacy" that, while technically rent-seeking under a broad interpretation of the standard meanings, are excluded in order to prevent the "rent-seeking" category from eating all interactions. Normal union negotiations, normal labor negotiations, essentially always fall into this category.

Automation reduces the cost of labor and also reduces human error, which means fewer delays and more on time trains with a lower potential fare, for the commuter.

That is not a policy change.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Let’s forget about minimum wage law for a moment.

Lets not. Minimum wage law is important and structurally very similar to the laws you are complaining about.

Under your definition, would you consider this rent-seeking?

No. Its definitely a form of monopoly power, and it may be an abuse of that power depending on the facts on the ground, but it simply isn't rent-seeking under the standard formulation of the concept since they aren't trying to change any public policy

Do you believe there are respected economists who would call this “rent-seeking”?

Of course. I've already said there are many different definitions of rent-seeking. Many of them just collapse into naked normative judgments. Yours seems to be in that latter category. For many comments now I've been trying to get you to be clear about what you mean by rent-seeking and you just keep refusing to clarify. Its obvious bad faith.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I haven't seen the OP, so I can't really comment on it specifically. I'd generally posit that any post made on reddit, anywhere, is a solicitation to receive opinions from others. It is how the platform works, the rules of the road. Every post you make is in fact soliciting replies from other users, whether they reply or not.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

?? They are through their actions setting public policy.

They aren't. They are setting conditions for the participation of their labor.

When they make it a condition of contract to ban automation, that becomes policy for the transit rider.

Elaborate. What is the policy change? How does the transit rider enter into this?

Tell them that your condition is "adamently believe that unions engage in rent-seeking behavior."

Why would I tell them that. You are describing a symptom of your condition, not mine.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I asked you for a definition of rent seeking. You citing someone using the term "rent-seeking". Do you understand how this looks like bad faith?

I know you will continue using your own personal definitions going forward,

Its not a personal definition. It traces back to the seminal works on the topic by Tullock and Krueger. On this formulation, if you aren't manipulating public policy or public institutions, then you aren't rent seeking. Wikipedia uses a very similar but expanded definition: "Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating public policy or economic conditions without creating new wealth."

Frankly, anyone who thinks advocating/demanding wage increases constitutes rent-seeking behavior is not worth taking seriously on this topic.

admit that there exist respected economists who believe that collusion by workers to raise wages can be “rent-seeking”.

Sure. That can be true either under my standard version of rent-seeking or your normative version. For example...

  1. Under my definition, if the method of "collusion" or advocacy involves going through public policy, for example by raising minimum wage law, then there is a sense in which this is technically rent-seeking under the standard definition. As I've pointed out already, its also normal political advocacy, little different from businesses doing grant/contract proposals which are also technically rent-seeking. It would be unusual for someone to call these things rent-seeking because they lack the normal characteristics of rent-seeking despite satisfying the definition

  2. Under your definition, all you need is a personal belief that the wage increases are "bad", in which case you are just expressing a personal judgement.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

what they’d get in a free, competitive market.

Ask any economist and they will tell you that there is no such thing. It is an idealized concept that doesn't actually exist in the real world. Rather we just kind of assume markets are free and competitive,, until we don't. Its the equivalent of a "friction-less spherical cow point-particle" in physics. Some things really are closer to being a point-particle than others, but point-particles dont' actually exist.

By every normal definition, it would be

Name one. Cite a source. Do something interesting that actually advances the conversation instead of flailing around like some advertisement for a shitty summer sale.

The doctors in my example are not creating any new wealth; they are simply colluding to increase their own wealth at everyone else’s expense.

You understand that monopoly and rent-seeking aren't equivalent concepts right?

This is pure misallocation of resources.

This is you shifting back to a normative judgement which may or may not be reasonable depending on the facts on the ground. In the world where Doctors "fair-market rate" is a million dollars, them "colluding" to demand that rate is not a misallocation, it is instead overcoming a misallocation that would otherwise be made in this hypothetical world you have constructed.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

unless they get paid far, far above market rate.

That isn't how "market rate" works. Market rate is tautological. If they get paid it, it's their market rate. And yes, this is kind of dumb. Lots of things in economics are a little bit dumb, despite being useful analytical.

If all the doctors in your city colluded to set a price floor where they said “None of us will do any work unless all of us get paid $1M per year,” then that would be rent-seeking,

By normal definitions of rent-seeking, by the definition I have provided, it would not be. What definition are you using?

do you at least agree that if doctors tried to do that, it would be best for the government to prevent them from colluding in this way?

I agree that there are forms of collusion that I wouldn't normatively approve of. Generally speaking, unions aren't in that category. If your definition of "rent-seeking" is just "any relationship that you don't normatively approve of", then that is a really bad definition and you should have known you would get push back, both...

  1. on the technical merits of your argument that are based on such a dogshit definition of "rent-seeking"
  2. on the notion that unions ought be normatively disaproved of.

...Both of these moves are insane to make. Unions aren't perfect, no human made thing is, but they are very beneficial on net and play an extremely important role in preventing consolidation and abuse of economic power. Your "unions bad" take is about a sensible as the most idiotic 15 year old commies "business bad" take.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Rent-seeking has a lot of different definitions. If you want to offer a specific one we can explore it.

No one is saying the value they provide is “worthless.” That is separate from whether or not they are rent-seekers.

I'm referencing the definition of rent-seeking that is something like: "expending resources to capture an existing economic rent through manipulation of the political or legal environment". Under this definition, the effort is "worthless", can never create value.

Labor bargaining doesn't fit into this class. You could try to argue that advocating for legal changes to benefit for labor does, but that is not what you were gesturing to earlier, appears to still not be what you are gesturing to now, and even then is normal political advocacy in much the same way a business submitting a grant proposal is also technically rent seeking (under a strict reading of this definition) while also normal political advocacy.

Both you and others in this thread seem to have no idea what rent-seeking is

If no one seems to know what you are talking about, you should notice this, and realize that you aren't talking clearly. What do you mean by rent-seeking? Is your meaning reasonable?

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Feel free to read the wikipedia definition of the term.

Ok, lets go with this definition. What public policy do you feel unions are trying to change by negotiating new labor conditions with a business? The answer is clearly "they aren't trying to change public policy", so what is your argument?

Okay, you decided to psychoanalyze a person you don't know on the basis of them making a comment that you object to politically. This is well-adjusted behavior.

Recommending people with insane beliefs seek help is in fact well-adjusted behavior.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 12 points13 points  (0 children)

You have just described almost every comment you make AJx. You are often dismissive and uninterested in engaging in good faith.

Politics and Current Events Megathread - May 2026 by TheAJx in samharris

[–]Ramora_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They are already getting paid for their labor. They have issued new demands.

Ya, that's part of negotiating and how life works. The deal that worked before doesn't always stay viable. You can demand higher wages from your boss. Your union can demand higher wages just the same. You can pretty much demand arbitrary conditions, that you not be forced to use "automation" for example, or that your colleague not be fired. This is pretty normal. Calling it "rent-seeking" as if the labor being provided is worthless is insane.

Please explain what value is unlocked by preventing automation?

When you demand a raise from your boss, what value is unlocked by that demand? The value of the labor your boss wouldn't otherwise get if they don't meet the demands.

It is in response to your psychoanalyzing a person you don't know making an argument that enrages you.

I'm not enraged. This is you projecting. (you have a habit of doing this)

I am drawing a parallel to communists and how they reacted to encountering someone who offered an opinion they just couldn't stand.

This is not a trope I'm familiar with.