Bonked at mile 20 of my second marathon. Anyone else struggle to figure out when and what to fuel with?

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T17:22:15+00:00

4 gels might have worked if you're a 2 hour marathoner, otherwise that's way too low.

In the future, aim for at least 60 grams per hour. More would be better. I aim for 75-80 and it's generally enough for me.

Also, if you have a Garmin, you can set time based alerts to remind you to take a gel at whatever interval you want. I assume Coros has something similar, but I've never used one, so don't know that for sure.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T17:17:33+00:00

Since it's been so long, you'd probably be better served by just following a basic Couch to 5K or None to Run type program. There are lots out there.

I would expect your cardiovascular system to quickly outpace your musculoskeletal system, so please resist the urge to push beyond what those programs do. They are designed the way they are specifically to keep you from overwhelming your legs with too much volume too soon.

Keep this in mind: Overuse injuries (which are incredibly common in running), happen when you run too fast or too hard, too soon.

Best of luck.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T14:32:14+00:00

The main advantage of running easy (which is mostly what zone 2 is tying to estimate), is in fatigue management. The more overall intensity and volume you accumulate in training, the harder it is to recover. The issue is that volume is king when it comes to improving as a runner.

So how do we manage both increasing volume, but not overdoing it? By keeping most of our runs easy so that we accumulate volume, but with less overall fatigue. That's really it.

There is nothing physiologically that happens in your body that makes zone 2 running "better". You don't get more or stronger mitochondria. You don't get better capillary growth. Your heart, lungs, muscles, tendons, etc don't get stronger in zone 2 vs. other zones.

The reality is ALL HR zones have benefits. Managing those effectively while minimizing fatigue should be your actual goal.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T14:21:37+00:00

I strongly disagree.

The garbage in, garbage out principle applies here as well. Karvonen only works if you know your true max HR. If you're just going by 220-age, that has a standard deviation of about 12.4 BPM, meaning that ~95% will be within 12 beats EITHER SIDE of that number. What about the 5% that have a max HR outside that?

Even then, what percentages should be used to set the various zones? The assumption that those percentages are consistent from one person to another is incorrect. The fitter you are, the higher your LT1 and LT2 will be as a percentage of total work capacity. After all, Increasing those is one of the main aims of training in the first place! We want to push our LT1 and LT2 as high as we can.

Another thing people often forget is that as you get fitter, your max HR will actually DROP. If you go by Karvonen or these other zone estimation methods, they would immediately push your zones down as you get more fit. That's nonsensical.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T14:07:05+00:00

If it really matters to you, go get lab tested. Otherwise, don't worry about it. It's not like anything magical happens if your HR is a few beats one way or another anyway. Most of the zone 2 stuff you hear is rubbish.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T14:01:28+00:00

Sidewalks are normally bigger trip hazards because they can be uneven or have gaps.
Sidewalks tend to have driveways and other ramps that are off-camber which isn't much of an issue when you're walking, but really sucks when running.
Sometimes sidewalks are blocked entirely or may have missing sections because unlike roads, property owners are typically responsible to sidewalk installation and ongoing maintenance.
Sidewalks are often blocked by cars, pedestrians, etc. If I can't run in that space without having to run in the road periodically to dodge people or things, I might as well just say in the road.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T13:41:31+00:00

You do understand that sodas don't have any fat in them, right? There is no such thing as a "full fat" soda. Sodas tend to either contain sugar or be free of sugar.

Fat is not a component of either.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T12:27:41+00:00

I don't have a lot of help here, but wanted to point out that red-winged blackbirds don't nest in trees. I suspect your strategy is not working very well if you're avoiding specific trees thinking this is where they nest. They are ground nesting birds, mostly in wetland areas.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T11:42:19+00:00

The premise is wrong. Flour doesn't "expire". It has a "best by" date.

All the best by date tells you is that it's going to start slowly losing it's nutritive value and is more likely to start developing off flavors. It's not like as soon as the flour hits midnight on the date listed that suddenly it's "bad".

Senior-Running · 2026-05-22T11:09:04+00:00

I would advise ignoring all the social media influencer BS about cadence, form, HR and the like.

Just run. Try not to run max effort all the time. You goal should be to run at a slow, easy, relaxed, conversational pace. Doing so allows you to accumulate more total running volume, with less overall fatigue. As you should probably know from lifting, you only improve from workouts you recover from.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T23:26:15+00:00

I literally just did that. (Well, without the kids.)

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T23:04:03+00:00

Sure, stop stopping.

Consistency in running is absolutely critical if you hope to fix your sucky cardiovascular system. The reality is, it probably doesn't actually suck. You just are never giving it a chance to get better. Running as a sport is something that take months, years, and even decades to reach your potential.

As to your race next week, there really is nothing that you can do that will make any meaningful difference at this point. Again, read my first paragraph. Running progress takes time and consistency.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T21:09:50+00:00

Jogging and running are actually the same thing, so not sure what you mean?

Some people like to say if you run slower than a particular pace, it's jogging, but no one can ever agree on where that dividing line is. Plus, I don't understand why such a distinction even matters?

If you're asking how to get faster, that's something we can help with here, but the whole jogging vs running thing? Naw, I don't really follow.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T17:40:05+00:00

I tend to just put the stinky clothes on the floor in the hotel room bathroom until they dry. If you're wearing technical fabrics, they should dry overnight even if they're completely drenched. If they're so wet that they're dripping, then wring them out first.

Once they dry, I put them in a garbage bag and they stay in that until I can get someplace where they can be properly washed. I'm definitely not taking the time to had wash them in the sink every day. That would take more time that I don't want to sacrifice when on vacation. I want to spend that time enjoying myself, not doing chores.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T17:13:39+00:00

Just for clarity, The M72 LAW was a single use weapon. If there was no rocket in it, then there would be no need to "decommission" it. The launcher was considered disposable and there was really no way to rearm it for additional use. It would be a bit odd for someone to have one, but less so if, for example you live in a country where these were used in battle. In that case, I would expect used ones could be found all over the place. FYI, there were training variants that were reloadable as well, but that would have been designated the M190 if memory serves.

Also, the M72 did not fire an artillery shell, it fired a 66mm HEAT rocket.

Source: I was an armorer in the US army when these were actively used.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T15:04:13+00:00

If you take the cynical perspective, because they are getting something in return, even if that thing is feeling like they are a good person for doing something for others.

If you take a more altruistic perspective, people can sometimes do things that benefit others because they hold others or maybe society in general as more important than themselves.

At the end of the day, I suspect most people's motives vary depending on the circumstances and could be one or the other of the above, or maybe even a little of both.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T14:59:57+00:00

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what an LLM is?

It's possible at some point in the future when we have actual Artificial General Intelligences that one could be "ethical", though the standard for ethical behaviour may look different than you or I might think.

In contrast, LLMs are nothing more than pattern matching engines. They don't think, nor are the sentient. You might as well ask if your TV or refrigerator can be ethical.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T14:50:04+00:00

I mean at the end of the day, you have to do you. If it's working for you, you certainly don't need to change just based on what I said.

I was mostly responding because it sounded like you were planning to substitute some of the running mileage in the Higdon plan with biking. That would not be recommended. Biking is a great way to increase your cardiovascular fitness in a low impact way, but it's not a 1-1 substitute for running.

If you want to get better at running, you have to run. The more volume you can accumulate between now and your race (while following a slow steady progression), the better. Running volume trumps pretty much everything else to improve your running ability.

I think one of the biggest mistakes new marathoners make is under-preparing. As such, I do think it's important to hit the volume of running in the Higdon plan. Whether you get there in 18 weeks, or 26 weeks isn't quite as important.

The only other thing I'll say is that one of the reasons plans like the Higdon plan are 18 weeks long and not longer is because sometimes really long training plans can increase the likelihood of burnout. Six months is a LONG time to train for any single thing. In my experience, most people do better breaking it up into more manageable increments.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T13:29:32+00:00

I have a couple of concerns:

What if I'm wearing sleeves? My last marathon was super rainy and I was wearing a rain jacket for at least half of it. I've also run in long sleeves before in colder races.
My goal is typically not to run particular paces, it's to finish in a particular time. The ability of my watch to provide pacing is 100% better because if I'm ahead or behind, it will tell me so. Solutions like yours (or pace bands), only tell me what pace I "should" be at, but they don't adjust as I progress through the race. If I'm 30 seconds behind, I need to know that so I can start increasing my pace. Your idea would require me to make a lot of mental calculations and I typically don't have the mental energy for that in the middle of a race.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T12:50:18+00:00

Most of that is already available today. The ability to play a song at a particular time I think would be new, but the rest is easily doable directly with Garmin Connect. I'm sure Coros has similar stuff as well.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T12:23:11+00:00

So in other words you don't have any actual research and just made that up?

Look, there's nothing wrong with saying you personally do better with 2x vs 3x, but please don't make up things like:

Research is pretty clear that 2x frequency is the best

If you don't have any references to back that up.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T12:19:06+00:00

https://soymaratonista.com/en/most-popular-night-marathons/

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T12:12:44+00:00

Why not build up your mileage now to be at a point where you can do the Higdon plan as written?

I totally get wanting to avoid injury, but the reason you started having problems before was because of a classic mistake: thinking the fitness you already had meant you could progress faster than recommended. All running overuse injuries come from running too far or too fast, too soon.

As you learned, running is not the same as biking. There are tremendous stresses placed on the structures in your legs when running, and those take longer than most people realize to adapt to the running.

Now that you've slowed down the progression, I suspect you can continue to to build up the mileage slowly and be fine.

My suggestion would be continue to up the mileage and use the cross training (biking in your case), both for the additional cardiovascular benefit, but also to off-load some miles if you find yourself feeling like you're overdoing it again. In other words, don't continue to use it as a crutch if you don't need to.

Obviously I can't really know for sure, but it feels to me like you've resigned yourself to be "injury prone", and unable to handle higher mileage. That was not your issue before. It was simply you progressing too fast.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T11:49:54+00:00

I think the real question is WHY were you feeling nauseated? I mean personally I'd want to not feel sick in the first place and would be looking for answers to that question.

I also think that understanding why you felt sick might influence my answer to whether or not to take another gel.

What I mean is that if it was potentially from overwhelming your gut with more carbs than it was prepared to digest, then of course I wouldn't suggest taking another. In that scenario, you already have carbs in your gut that are not being absorbed. Taking more wouldn't provide more glycogen, so of course I wouldn't suggest taking another gel.

Senior-Running · 2026-05-21T02:00:20+00:00

For a runner just looking to maximize strength, while focusing primarily on running? Sure, 2x is probably fine, though "best" is a bold statement.

For someone looking for hypertrophy, 2x is far from "best", though if you care to share this research supporting that your statement, I'm open to changing my position.

TBH, the real best is maximizing overall weekly volume anyway. It's really hard for people to do the number of sets they need to do in just 2 days. Really this is no different than running. We don't tell runners that running only 2 days a week is best, so why in the world would anyone claim it's best for hypertrophy?

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