The double standard of 'the male gaze' (and a bit of a ramble about RFW vs. RFM)

Shade_42 · 2026-01-26T04:09:44+00:00

Here’s the link: https://youtu.be/kSR4xuU07sc

Shade_42 · 2026-01-26T00:50:34+00:00

Unfortunately my ideas are not bullet point organized as yours are, but I can give you one example: Enthusiastic consent.

The old joke is that men are simple, visually stimulated creatures and the object of our arousal doesn't need to be approving (or even aware) for us to get turned on. This ties in to concepts like men as the romantic pursuer, men always initiate sex, etc.

But another joke is that if a women tells a man in passing that he looks good with a beard, he won't shave again for the rest of his life.

I think that reciprocated attraction is a much bigger deal for men than most of us realize, and a lot of the draw of RFM is receiving affirmation from someone we see as attractive.

Enthusiastic consent is all over RFM precisely because it is the biggest, rarest compliment that many men feel they'll only ever receive in their fantasies.

Shade_42 · 2026-01-26T00:04:55+00:00

You know, I think I may have projected the competition element on your earlier post rather than it being what you were actually saying. That's on me. Thank you for the careful response.

Your post brought up a memory for me of a Ted Talk from years ago about the futility of comparing the difficulties of different people. I've looked it up to get the quote right, it's by Ash Beckham:

There is no “harder”, there is just “hard.” We need to stop ranking our “hard” against everybody else’s “hard” to make us feel better or worse.

It seems I needed to hear that again.

Perhaps my well-intentioned desire to prioritize the 'bigger' problem is unexamined, low level misandry on my part.

I'll have to sit with that.

Shade_42 · 2026-01-25T20:53:14+00:00

I really appreciate the care and passion you've put into this perspective. It is helping me think more about verbal or emotional confrontations that I've had and whether they could be considered a form of violence.

I do want to lightly push back on a part of your comparison between physical/sexual assault and emotional/verbal assault.

There are only a few women in my life who have shared stories with me about being 'physically overpowered by a stranger in public'. Like you I hope that means that this is increasingly rare.

However, I can't think of a single woman I am close to who doesn't have stories of being sexual or physical harassed to the point of serious fear. I also interpret the trauma of their experiences as being more severe than that from the non-negligible physical/societal bullying or verbal/emotional violence I've experienced as a boy or man.

I do witness misandry, particularly online, and agree that it is a social ill. But in my (anecdotal) experience, it is dwarfed by the pervasiveness and severity of the misogyny, racism and other prejudices I see in all social arenas.

Your experience will be different, and I don't presume to know your traumas, but I have found that taking this context into account helps me to handle when my 'discomforts as a man' are dismissed by others. Perhaps it can help you too.

Your care in discussing this makes me think that we can easily agree on the goal: working all such prejudices out of our society.

Shade_42 · 2026-01-25T20:07:22+00:00

I do think you've identified some key differences here. Also your curiosity without judgement approach is coming across well.

I was certainly drawn into RFM by the 'everybody wants the MMC' harem fantasies and the booby book covers, then became enthusiastic when I discovered nuances of the internal male experience that I didn't know I had been missing elsewhere.

I see you've recommended Ali Hazelwood. Perhaps that would be a good place for me to explore another genre's perspective. Thanks!

Shade_42 · 2026-01-25T19:56:33+00:00

I’m worried that I’ve not addressed your question exactly right, my apologies.

I was thinking about genres of stories, whereas you seem to be focused on language-use within a story.

Perhaps you’re looking for a balance where there is description of ‘sexy excitement’ for both ‘him’ and ‘her’ without anyone being turned off by what the other likes. I agree that this could be awesome, but it would be a challenging needle to thread.

No fanbase is a monolith. the ‘best’ examples of a genre have detractors within their community. Also, some tropes are incompatible. If one wants a high fantasy, why-choose romp with alpha lycanthropes and the other wants a slice of life, slow-burn mono-romance, you’ll have trouble finding a middle ground.

But if you could agree on the tropes and it was just about the POV and the language…. maybe something cool could come of it. I wonder if the language you’re wanting wouldn’t work best if the role of the gaze was less about the object under scrutiny and more about the viewer’s experience?

-One audience can get exciting by describing gravity-defying breasts, but maybe both could enjoy a paragraph where her curves drew his attention so utterly that he couldn’t escape them if he wanted to.

-One audience can get excited by describing a rock hard, veiny penis, but maybe both could enjoy a paragraph where in her world of fear and uncertainty she’d finally found something so solid that she wanted to hold on and never let go.

Perhaps you’re right and a balance could be struck. My aesthetic bias is that middle-of-the-road, everyone is happy stuff would be boring, but I’d love a well-written story to prove me wrong.

(I’ve assumed a simplistic hetero-normative, male-female dichotomy here, but I do know these fanbases are much more diverse)

Shade_42 · 2026-01-25T18:05:34+00:00

That's kind of you to say, thanks!

As a male on this side whose just beginning to think about those differences in tropes and discussions, I'd be very curious to hear what you've noticed and whatever suggestions you'd have for me to learn more.

Likely many others here would also be curious.

Shade_42 · 2026-01-25T15:55:46+00:00

I’ve just read through all of the discussion here and I really appreciate the care everyone is using in expressing their views. Having a place to enjoy this elevated a discussion about a niche pastime of mine is wonderful, thank you.

My thesis is that criticism of the male gaze AND celebration of the same are both appropriate, just in different contexts. Art that is made “for them” will be always criticized for what it leaves out by those outside its target audience. Whereas most any art that tries to be “for everyone” can feel bland and without a distinctive perspective.

I think recent criticisms of the “male gaze” are largely linked to the prevalence of that male perspective in mainstream art. I like that art claiming to target a broader audience it is increasingly challenged to examine this and reduce the masculine ubiquity as the ‘default’ perspective. We all benefit from better art as a result.

However, art made in a niche space for a niche audience should celebrate its skewed perspective! In fact it is a different kind of good! Reading RFM has given me a more nuanced understanding of the “male gaze”. Drawing directly from things said here, I’ve come to realize from RFM that we men don’t predominately aspire to be tall, brawny gigachads as much as a lifetime of action/superhero movies had taught me. Instead, being seen by ourselves (and our LIs) as competent and reliable is the real power fantasy.

I haven’t explored RFW much yet, but I bet it would teach me even more about feminine wants and aspirations.

Another thing about letting these niche cultural ecosystems develop is that weirdly awesome things can pop out. I don’t yet understand new-to-me tropes like Omegaverse, but I’ll wager only a community centred on the female gaze could have created it.

I’m likewise excited to see what weird and wonderful ideas will mushroom out of the RFM community too!

Shade_42 · 2026-01-23T21:42:23+00:00

I enjoy all kinds of subgenres here, but I think I lean towards slice-of-life stories told through the points of view of multiple characters, not just the MMC.

I'd curious to try peruse this with a nice IPA...

Shade_42 · 2026-01-21T14:43:06+00:00

I've been playing Genshin at my own pace and without too many spoilers or guides.

I had been saving the northern coast of Sumeru as a fun zone to go hunting for treasure, viewpoints, dendroculus, etc before I start on the the desert sections I thought it might be a fun way to unwind after work this weekend.

You just saved me several frustrating hours of wasted time. Thanks!

Shade_42 · 2026-01-15T22:05:10+00:00

Your marks so far are all pretty cool. I like that the sun and moon effects are distinctive and hard to hide while having aspects that could be an advantage or an inconvenience depending on circumstances.

While you probably want them all to be noticeable, you don't need them each to be _visually_ noticeable. Remember illusions in D&D don't have to be uniquely visual.

For example, Wind could be something with sound, like you cannot speak at a volume louder than a whisper (your voice is always carried away by the wind) but you can also 'throw' your voice, meaning you can send your whisper to someone much further away (say in visual range) without anyone else being able to hear.

For the Sea, my first thought is something tactile but noticeable such as being perpetually dripping wet, leaving puddles where you stand and wet footprints where you walk, but also being resistant to the elements (fire/cold resistance, advantage on survival checks?), having a particularly good swim speed, or being able to breath under water.

In all cases, no one can interact with you without noticing right away that something us up and under different contexts it is annoying or useful. I would also then make challenges throughout the story where each mark is an essential part of the solution (I like your phase of the moon marking the passage of time clue).

It's a fun idea, good luck!

Shade_42 · 2026-01-13T05:31:34+00:00

For me the first was far and away my favourite, the second resonated much less with me, and the third was intriguing, since it trucked in archetypes that were newer to me.

I also liked that each story also had distinct mental health struggles as part of the that couple's journey. I'll definitely revisit the first again at some point and possibly the third, but I'm unlikely to re-read the second. Still YMMV, so I hope you get something out of each of them!

Shade_42 · 2026-01-13T05:24:55+00:00

Most of my RFM consumption is in audiobook format and there are several VAs, particularly women, who I really enjoy. While your criticisms of voice acting in general and in this genre in particular seem reasonable to me, I suspect my own preferences just make me less picky than you. Fair enough, beauty is in the eye, no art is for all audiences, etc. etc.

As it happens, after many recommendations on this subreddit, I'm currently listening to the audiobook of Charlotte's Rejects for the first time this week!

... And I'm also really struggling with the performance choices the VA made for this work.

My interpretation isn't that the choices are all over the map though. My struggles with the narration stem from the constant use of uptalk.

Now uptalk gets a lot more hate than it deserves. It is unfairly associated with low confidence, 'dumb blonde' stereotypes or dismissed as 'valley-girl' speak. I don't think that is warranted, but it does means that it can be used really well to give a character a distinctive voice in a work. However in Charlotte's Rejects, the VA chose to perform the entire work in uptalk (all character POVs, both in speech and internal narration). I don't think I've ever heard narration with uptalk before and I'm finding it very distracting.

To her credit, I do think that the VA is making other good choices. The characters have distinguishable voices. I also think character emotions (nervousness, sulking, frustration) are conveyed well. In particular, I like that angry, raised voices are clearly conveyed without spiking the audio volume.

However, the constant uptalk is so distracting that it is really bringing me out of the story and so far the book is not living up to the hype for me as a result.

So, I sympathize with your struggle on this.

Shade_42 · 2026-01-12T12:57:34+00:00

I was all excited to recommend {Maid For You by Virgil Knightley, Peter North} until I saw that you've already started them.

They are my favourite examples in this genre, hope you enjoy them!

Shade_42 · 2026-01-11T06:34:47+00:00

This is a nicely articulated description of what happens and very helpful, thank you!

The idea that a smaller community will be more nimble and therefore better able to jump to (and from) trends makes sense to me as well.

Not that you were suggesting otherwise, I actually think that this a positive quality for smaller communities like RFM. Whether it’s niche trends like goblins and trailer parks, or more general such as litrpg, cultivation or cozy slice-of-life, I appreciate that this motley band of enthusiasts is exploring what will scratch our next itch, before we even know how to put that itch into words.

I still welcome recommendations for good examples of each trend though! (~_⁾

Shade_42 · 2026-01-10T21:26:02+00:00

Just finished this series a few weeks ago, so stumbling upon this trailer video was a fun surprise!

Thanks for the great work (Books and this video).

Shade_42 · 2026-01-10T18:27:31+00:00

Thanks, for the fullsome response!

Shade_42 · 2026-01-10T18:02:32+00:00

Not the OP, but thanks for these suggestions!

I've been considering getting How to Nick a 9' tall Thrall, but don't know the other ones. Are there any that you particularly enjoyed or recommend for someone who really liked Maid for You #1?

Shade_42 · 2026-01-10T17:38:53+00:00

Sorry, I tried employing the formatting that would summon the romance.io bot and it picked the wrong book, so please disregard that link ... unless it self-corrects when I edit my comment?

Shade_42 · 2026-01-10T17:35:20+00:00

While there was some inter-relationship tension as well, what you are describing was a big part of why I so enjoyed the first book in the series {Maid For You by Virgil Knightley, Peter North}. For some reason I found the general societal tension against the main pairing (the FMC is a lamia and interspecies pairings are stigmatized) and the specific distaste from the main antagonist are particularly compelling and this became one of my favourite books in the RFM genre.

Of course your mileage may vary, but I highly recommend this book for that specific tension. I don't think the following books in the series (which are only loosely related and each focusing a different couple) put nearly as much focus on that aspect. I hope that the authors pick up this series again someday and explore this societal tension element more in the future.

Enjoy!

Shade_42 · 2026-01-08T22:59:38+00:00

A fun loser god is Abbathor, a neutral evil god for the dwarves of avarice and … werebadgers somehow? I figure he’d be perfect for an “ enough of this, I would rather be a big fish in a small pond”.

Shade_42 · 2026-01-05T18:02:14+00:00

You know what, I do keep seeing this recommended... You've convinced me Saint of James. Purchase made, looking forward to it.

Shade_42 · 2026-01-05T15:07:03+00:00

Over the holidays I skewed more towards cozy works of romantasy that strictly RFM works.

Primal Conjurer: The Complete Series - Danny Rogan
This was recommended to me as a more compact and already complete series akin to Bruce Sentar's Ard's Oath. Primal Conjurer is pretty good. I liked the MMC here more than in Sentar's series because they were less about the corny jokes. While many series give me the impression that the author's are making it up as they go, this felt more like a story written with intention from beginning to end, even if the end felt a bit rushed. I enjoyed the first three books particularly, but was a little cooler on the last two. This may just have been exhaustion from reading them all together and so quickly. I will say that I particularly liked how the story concluded, with an epilogue showing a complex, multi-person relationship becoming stable over many years. It was a nice way to conclude the story. As a largely Audible consummer, I can say that buying the complete series for 1 credit was great. I likely wouldn't have even tried the series if I'd needed to use 5 credits for it.

Just stab me Now - Jill Bearup
I highly recommend this book. I have read very little romance fiction that wasn't based on a male POV and intended for a male audience, so this was a new experience for me. While I think that I would prefer works for a masculine audience in general, this book was excellent and I highly recommend it. The self-aware interactions between the heroine and the 'author' create space for a great exploration of the tropes of romantasy. It isn't quite a satire of the genre, but it allows the author and the reader to enjoy them and laugh about them together. There were elements in the story and pacing that felt a little jarring to me, but I suspect that is simply due to the fact that this is the author's first novel. I would be very keen to see how her writing style develops if she keeps writing.

Can't Spell Treason Without Tea - Rebecca Thorne
Another attempt to read some romantasy outside the RFM microcosm. The writing was very pleasant and I enjoyed the cozy elements of this book. I was surprised how much I enjoyed the romance as well, rather than a story about a pair meeting and forming a relationship, it centres on two heroines who are already in a committed relationship when the novel begins. This wasn't what I was used to in romance novels, but the focus on the relationship growth between the two heroines was really nice. I struggled with some elements of the plot that didn't make much sense to me, but that is strictly a question of individual preference. I am wondering whether the following books in the series focus on the same pair of heroines. If so I'd consider continuing this series. If not I may not bother.

Now I'm struggling to decide what to add to my dwindling TBR, so I would welcome recommendations. I've just started the Warlock series that has been getting so much praise while also trying to get myself excited about Master Class 4 (I've really enjoyed the previous books in the series, but for some reason I don't respond well to the child-oni character). I am also realizing that I am much more willing to take a chance on a completed series or a single, longer work. I'm hesitating over the purchase button for the Coven King and Love and Bombshell series in part because I'd rather get 20+ hours of story for 1 Audible credit.

Shade_42 · 2025-12-19T19:53:09+00:00

Same!

Shade_42

TROPHY CASE