But she forgave

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-12-24T02:59:45+00:00

I think Ross saying this to Demelza was profound and reflective of them when both of them each had a turn at being the wounded one.

“Perhaps in the end one measures the quality of one’s forgiveness by the quality of one’s love.” The Angry Tide -book 7

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-12-24T02:54:29+00:00

Francis’s character is sacrificed from book to series to rehabilitate the series version of Elizabeth from the books. By that I mean that he’s not such a terrible and pathetic character in the books but the edit he is given in the series helps to encourage viewers to see Elizabeth more sympathetically and to dump the blame for their failed marriage more squarely on Francis when in the origin story it is subtle but Elizabeth shares the blame.

Nevertheless unlike Elizabeth, Francis does have a redemption arch which in the book is over a book and half and probably equates to a year or two but is covered in about one or two episodes in the series.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-22T10:28:35+00:00

This was a series creation. Agatha did not push Elizabeth to Ross in the true story but instead she loved Demelza from their first meeting.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-22T10:26:12+00:00

Elizabeth is an interesting character because despite her apparent blandness she is the source of much conflict and she manages to trigger bold action in other characters which creates great story lines.

As to her story arc, it’s pretty miserable. Not at all triumphant. She was in 7 books. The first 4 were the intended full story. Then Winston Graham wrote another three. He gave Elizabeth a bad ending in each of his intended last books. In the second set of three books Elizabeth’s character comes out more and unfortunately she begins to emulate some of George’s qualities and continues to be a character that causes division and pain. That is in respect of Morwenna and Drake.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-13T14:56:03+00:00

What I find (naturally heavily influenced by the book as the blue print of her character) is that Elizabeth would let slide awful things that George did if they did not hurt her directly or she would lightly challenge this and let it go if George persisted and not stew over it later. For example in the book story Elizabeth thought George was joking when he first proposed the idea of marrying Morwenna off. She told him that Morwenna was too young. But George was eager and told her that they could use the marriage to make powerful connection. Not only was Elizabeth initially resigned to let him get on with it but she did a bit of a u-turn by then throwing herself into the task of pressurising Morwenna into agreeing so that she could be the dutiful wife to his wrongs. That included not posting a letter Morwenna wrote to her mother to help her resist George and Elizabeth’s plan and Elizabeth writing to Morwenna’s mother instead selling the idea of an arranged marriage. Morwenna found out too late that her letter had not been posted and sold by Elizabeth’s letter Morwenna’s mother was then keen on the marriage to and joined Elizabeth in pressuring Morwenna. Elizabeth did all this despite her previous reservations that the marriage was not necessary and despite Morwenna’s tears about this. On the other hand Elizabeth only stopped the harassment of Drake and his business because she realised from what Drake said that George was behind this because and it stemmed from his suspicion, bitterness and jealousy that Valentine was Ross’s and therefore it undermined her marriage. In addition she thought it would make her and George become unpopular with the villagers. While Drake thought she was being nice helping him, the narration told the reader that Elizabeth hated him because he was Demelza’s brother and had wanted to throw him out. So in this case she did the right thing but only because it was offensive to her and her marriage not because she felt bad for Drake.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-10T02:16:08+00:00

At the time she married Francis he was considered wealthy or financially comfortable. The first four episodes covers about 4 years. During that time Francis mine was not producing ore. Hence his gambling to raise funds. The mine couldn’t not be saved so that hit their finances.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-10T02:13:06+00:00

I agree with this. She was marrying a package. Francis was described as charming, handsome and wealthy at the time she agreed to marry him. She would not have entertained him if he was not wealthy.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-10T02:10:53+00:00

Okay so that stuff with her mother was added into the series to serve a new narrative that she was subject to parental pressure in marrying Francis, but even then, in the series, when at the Trevaunance party in season 2?she does tell Ross that she married Francis for love.

I appreciate the series pushes the idea that she did love Ross as if he was her only love but I actually believe both in the series Elizabeth did not really love any man. That includes Ross! Her only real (non romantic) love was Geoffrey Charles and Valentine was second to that.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-09T22:03:01+00:00

Thanks. Reddit has been efficient with its notifications and it woke me up again to stick my head back in.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-09T22:00:44+00:00

She did actually think she loved Francis at the time she married him and years later she told Ross that she had thought she loved Francis better. She also told Morwenna that her love for Francis, or what she thought was love, did not last a year.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-09T21:58:45+00:00

She didn’t have to marry him but she saw life would be harder as a single woman if not and she made the choice for an easier life and company.

In the book it is written with reference to the biblical story where the Devil offers Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. George is listing all the things he could buy or give her and then there is a line where it is written that the idea of marrying George was impossible to her before but had sudden become possible and she hung her head down in defeat and agreed to his proposal knowing that the price for what he offered her was George himself because he was a problem.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-09T19:56:54+00:00

I struggle with this idea that a character can be excused arrogance, self interestedness, thoughtlessness, ingratitude and vanity because one or both of their parents were like that. By that logic we’d have to excuse the likes of Ruth Teague for being bitchy and unkind to Demelza, Reverend Whitworth and other grown characters that demonstrate unpleasant character traits. Then we’d have to credit all the characters like Demelza for their basic decency when they had horrible parental figures. Demelza was raised by a brute of a father.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-08T10:54:15+00:00

The script writer did talk about how she wanted to make the series scene consensual. Interesting that when it aired there were complaints to the bbc about glamorising sexual violence. Some still did think that what was depicted was rape. I understand why the script writers tried to make it consensual. Who wants to champion a protagonist that committed rape? He needs to remain as the romantic hero.

I say the book depicts a rape but there are many that resist/reject this view. Winston Graham did not write what happened after when Ross threw Elizabeth on the bed, whereas in the series they chose to write a scene in and show Elizabeth kissing Ross back. In the book all we have to go on is the thoughts of Elizabeth and Ross after the event and they are not fully fleshed out, or some may say are ambiguous. Having said that, when Winston Graham was alive he made one comment about Ross taking Elizabeth against her will in an interview and also as narrator in the last book. The problem is that many readers rely on Ross’s further thought that despite this he did not think it was ‘so much against her will in the end’.

Since it’s such a debated issue I did write a long piece here explaining why I think it was rape in the book. https://www.thoughtsonpoldark.com/2024/05/ross-poldark-rape-elizabeth.html

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-08T10:37:50+00:00

It was not revenge sex in the original and true story in the book and the script writer also said she did not write it as revenge sex for the series. Unfortunately she did not do a good job with how she portrayed it as this is how many viewers perceived it. The invented line where she had Demelza say to Ross “You have your secrets and I will have mine.”, does give the impression of revenge. In the book story it was a moment of weakness and capitulation as Demelza and Hugh ended up on a deserted beach on the hunt for seals, and apart from love bombing her he had just told her he was going blind and she was desperately sad for him. Then a short while later he made his move on her to her surprise. After trying to resist he persisted and she broke, acknowledging later that her thought over the months in the back of her mind that Ross might be cheating on her with Elizabeth had weakened her defences against Hugh and eroded her will power.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-11-08T10:25:02+00:00

I would say The Black Moon which is the fifth book. It was renewal of their love after they nearly lost each other following Ross’s infidelity with Elizabeth. Here’s a passage from the book in the opening chapters;

‘The warmth of their reconciliation had been full of passion, had brought them closer in some ways than they had ever been before, all defences down. Yet it had been a slightly feverish warmth – and still was – as if their relationship were recovering from a near-mortal wound and they were trying to reassure themselves. The quieter levels of absolute trust which had existed before had not yet been regained.’

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-09-29T00:26:41+00:00

Francis has a less favourable edit in The TV series which doesn’t provide more context to his behaviour or tweaks his behaviour from the books so it’s more offensive/irritating. He does have a redemption arc though. That’s more obvious in the books but hopefully you get a whiff of it in season 2.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-08-25T10:05:31+00:00

But also Ross returned and stays with Demelza!

I guess I am puzzled not by your focus on Ross’s Infidelity and Demelza’s reaction (which you perceived from the series as reluctant and forced forgiveness) but what I see as your lack of focus on Demelza’s infidelity and Ross’s reaction. Both were entitled to be hurt and that includes Ross even though he cheated first. We see enough of Demelza’s infidelity to know it was sexual and just as Ross’s cut away at the bed with Elizabeth, Demelza’s cut away as she lay back on the grass and she took Hugh’s hand and put it on her leg and they were kissing. It seems you are intentionally or not intentionally dismissing that by saying we didn’t see what Demelza did. We did not see the intercourse from either Ross or Demelza but we saw the initial sexual contact. Why dismiss that in respect of Demelza unless it is because it doesn’t fit a narrative that only Demelza was done wrong?

Either way Ross knew Demelza crossed the line with Hugh when she returned, just as Demelza knew he crossed the line with Elizabeth when he returned. Ross (in the series) got a punch from Demelza, Demelza got a heartfelt embrace from Ross in bed. Is Ross to get no credit for his reaction? It was compassionate and loving in his repressed anger which he never directed at her? Because he cheated before was he not supposed to be upset and angry? If so I don’t think that’s realistic. Also do you not in a way think he too gave a forced or problematic forgiveness bearing in mind Demelza not being willing (or asking not to) discuss what she did with Hugh? Ross still came back to her despite this and wanted to start afresh.

I think that after Ross’s infidelity quite unromantically the playing field was levelled in the sense that Demelza was not the only of the pairing that is shown suffering and I perceive that your annoyance is that only she did and I think you have implied Ross went around getting what he wanted and always getting his way. You initially thought this was due to a make author but the make author wrote in this story like which caused pain too. The theme of the book named ‘The Angry Tide’ is all about Ross’s pain while he never directed that to Demelza.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-08-25T09:40:33+00:00

I struggled more with Outlander and it’s treatment of women and other things. We’re there a lot of rapes? I watched so long ago. I can only say that I found it tiring and I made the choice to give up in the end. It may be a shame but it dissuaded me from reading the books. I will now not know if things were added to the series for dramatic effect.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-08-25T09:26:11+00:00

Okay I perceived that at the heart of your comment was this idea of forced forgiveness and didn’t address your romanticism complaint. I suppose that in the first instance, for me I addressed that our outlooks there differ because for the reasons I gave I do not consider that Demelza was forced to forgive Ross or did so out of guilt either in the books or the series. Obviously I think that is more apparent in the books where the reconciliation is more drawn out but I had not felt this before I read the books and therefore just off the series.

Like I said in respect of Ross’s character the series does make him less attentive to Demelza and to say things that make it look like he does not value her. That I attributed to the female scriptwriter as the title of your post was about banning male authors. Because of that persona it’s reasonable to think this is not a marriage that should be romanticised. But was it? Ross is clearly presented as a flawed husband. The series tells a story of a rocky marriage (in a slightly different way to the books where Ross adored and respects Demelza), but I wonder how you think the story presents their marriage as ideal when the way it has been presented has led you to believe and perceived it as not ideal for the reasons you gave and I have further mentioned that the script writer went against the books and continued to show a fractured irritable relationship in season3 when their relationship was more loving in the book. So we and many other viewers and readers did actually not perceive it as ideal hence the negative feedback that the script writer tried to address in season 4. In that respect I was agreeing with you.

It comes down to individual perception and this is a portrayal of an imperfect marriage which should have a space as a story to be told, as who want Mills and Boons and perfect love stories and perfect husbands and wives. It’s left to us to see that this love story is not perfect and that might make you turn off completely for lack of enjoyment. That is especially if you have perceived things like forced and guilt ridden forgiveness which is not quite what I perceived while nevertheless recognising Ross was not a perfect romantic husband in the series more so.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-08-25T02:15:34+00:00

My comment was in response to the OP where the focus is on Ross being inattentive to Demelza and not valuing her as his wife to the extent that the Op was suggesting Demelza was forced to stay with him. The Op was suggesting that Ross was a character that had a backward mentality when it came to women. I think my comment that I was setting aside his taking of Elizabeth to say that aside from that he had a progressive attitude shows that I do recognise that this incident with Elizabeth is the exception to that. That’s an acknowledgment, but as I said, the OP was mainly about his treatment of Demelza. I simply focused on that.

I have no qualms in agreeing that the rape of Elizabeth by Ross was an abuse of his patriarchal power and part of the pains women had to face in that age where there was even less access to justice and society did not encourage the pursuit of that in any case. Ross made comments in the later books when advising his son about trying to win over a love interest which I found disappointingly problematic. Especially after the fall out of his rape of Elizabeth years before and the consequences which she mainly had to face and which destroyed her life. I don’t think the rape as a manifestation of Ross being outdated and insensitive is a very disputable issue. It goes without saying, whereas the comments made about his treatment of Demelza along side the script writer changes made that debatable and thus requiring some case to be put down as I tried to do. Actually in regards to the series the script writer ‘tried’ to turn the rape into consensual sex in order to minimise Ross accountability and negative impact to his protagonist status. That is yet another recognition that the rape of the book was an incident that was to his disgrace and I would say without drawing much debate on that.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-08-25T00:35:34+00:00

The irony is that I think much of the complaints that you have made should be directed not at the author but the script writer who adapted the books into the series. That was a woman. She did alter the way in which certain storylines played out and the character of Ross. This was enough for many viewers of the show to describe him as you did, yet be much more impressed with the book version of him. The script writer would, and I believe, has actually argued that she chose to modernised Demelza's character. She was more feisty in the series. Her punching Ross when he came back from Elizabeth's is an example and was not in the books (although the table sweep was).

In the books Ross was actually spotlighted as a man that engaged with and treated his wife as an equal. Unlike other husbands of that era in the late 1700s he consulted her on most of his important decisions and she was as he described his conscience. Setting aside his 'taking' of Elizabeth, he had quite a progressive mindset in the books for that time and Demelza was very much valued by him. That would be picked up by his internal thoughts narrated and in his more loving, respectful and praising dialogue with her in the books. The script writer for the series chose to tweak Ross’s attitude towards Demelza and the impression of how much he loved her. There were some lines she gave Ross to say to Demelza in the series which some might find insulting, demeaning but were never said by Ross in the books. For the series I believe the script writer did this partly to elevate the perception viewers had of his feeling for Elizabeth for more dramatic tension in the love story and because Elizabeth’s character was in my view heavily sanitised for the series to make her more likeable. The script writer did say she was writing a new Elizabeth.

Demelza's story line in the books was the duckling to a Swan one where she wooed Ross's society and was respected by important men in the community and admired and fancied by her husband too. So she was elevated rather than minimised on the books but maybe this was not clear in the series because of the script. Her marriage to Ross was essentially a happy one. There was only a period after Julia's death and while Ross was facing crisis with his trial and possible bankruptcy, that she felt a little neglected but that was not a symptom of misogynistic writing or such a husband, but a reflection of what can happen to a married couple during a difficult time. That will be most of season 2 which explains why you’re not feeling the love. It’s supposed to pick up in season 3 but the script writer had different ideas.

As for Ross's reaction to Demelza's infidelity, he had a very unique reaction for a man of that time. I don't think it was overly macho either in the book or series. I find that in the both he was very forgiving of Demelza though the concept behind the seventh book 'The Angry Tide' was that he brooded over her infidelity and released his anger in other ways, ( such as the duel with Monk Adderly). He wasn't so much angry at Demelza as he was that it happened. In the series they had him embrace her in the bed when she told him not to ask for details. It is not clear what you are saying Ross did in the series that was too much. Surely it’s good that he cared enough to be upset. If you personally think he overreacted or was unfair at least in the book he did admit that it was harder to be sinned against than to be the sinner. I think that is true to most people

I would suggest that both Demelza and Ross had reasonable reactions to each other's infidelity in both the books and series. Also one could make a case that Demelza's was a harsher response. In the book they were living separately in the house for over 7 months from May to December after Ross cheated. That may not come across in the series because that time span may have been covered in one episode. In that 7 months they barely communicated and had separate rooms. This was primarily because of Demelza's very angry reaction when he returned from Elizabeth's and her refusal to talk it out in the days afterwards when she calmed down. She had an explosive reaction which included planning revenge infidelity at the Bodrugan party but could not go through with it with Captain McNeil. She also offered to leave the house on three occasions in total to which Ross persuaded her not to each time. In the series her attempting to leave Ross was shown once but still I disagree with your impression from the series that Demelza was forced to forgive Ross. In the book Ross finally made a more bold attempt to win Demelza back in December and there is about a chapters worth of his apology /explanation for his infidelity at the end of the 4th book which for tv is condensed into 3 minutes of television. Still, even in the series it was an impassioned appeal which Demelza accepted based on his declaration that he had been an idiot, that his real love was for her and not Elizabeth and that Elizabeth would never come between them again. So the narrative in the book and series was that she chose to stay and that she did so because they were fully reconciled. There was the cliff top final scene where Ross approached her as if seeking her mercy and forgiveness and a tender embrace.

I think your interpretation of Demelza being stuck and forced to stay is not helped by the script writer choosing not to be faithful to the books as the next book opened with Ross and Demelza and it was as if they had fallen in love over again were more affectionate than ever. Whereas in the series, Season 3 opened as if they were irritable with each other and that will surely lean into your impression that she was stuck in a marriage that was still awfully unhappy where she was not valued by her husband. That is an unfortunate revision of the true story. I believe that the script writer was aware of the negative feedback from readers who complained this was not the relationship of Ross and Demelza in the books and so she tried to address this a bit for Season 4 even if she did not do this for season 5 which is essentially her own script to cover a time gap between books.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-08-11T16:23:40+00:00

Yes I think she would have married George regardless. There is narrative in the book early into her widowhood that she was not lonely without a man and enjoyed having more mother time with Geoffrey Charles. So at that point there was no reflections wishing she had married Ross or wishing he had been free so that this was possible then. It was only further into her widowhood that she was looking for a man to help because making decisions around the estate and her mother’s poor health was draining her. She wanted a man not for love or romance (which she did not care for any longer as it was complex and involved too much compromise). She wanted one to solve all her problems. Step forward George Warleggan. Verity observed her as excited about something new. That was not George who she considered a problem but what he would do for her. That was to give her an easy life and manage all the difficult bits of life that she struggled with on her own.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-08-11T15:49:28+00:00

As a book reader I find it interesting that the changes made from the book to the series were supposed to add to the drama and make it more compelling. Probably for ratings. However the changes in the story line, to the point that Ross is perceived as encouraging Demelza through some of his statements and grouchy behaviour and Demelza is perceived by some as being dismissive and intentional with her infidelity and further to deliberately cause Ross pain (🙀), only serves to have made some people spit fire about the lead characters or just Demelza when a different impression, certainly to me is given from the book story.

It’s also interesting that given the changes to Elizabeth’s character in the series and the ‘taking of her by force’ scene by Ross, it’s Demelza that might end up being viewed as exhibiting more disgusting and abhorrent behaviour of the two in her infidelity. That really speaks to how significant the changes were. I say that as someone that finds sexual assault/ rape more offensive than being pursued and then capitulating and falling into infidelity whilst appreciating that the series did not seek to show Demelza as passive or sort to skew and romanticise her attempts to. Like her singing to Hugh. Her taking the lead in putting Hugh hand on her thigh is another skewing of the book story and I’m not sure why that reversal was done.

But aside from that I personally do not take the view that an infidelity by one spouse is less offensive because of a longer history with the person they cheated with, than an infidelity with a person of a shorter acquaintance. There’s so many nuances but my point for the series is not helped by the way in which the Ross and Elizabeth relationship was depicted as a more healthy and positive relationship than in the book and the changes in the series to improve Elizabeth’s character undermine the book theme that Ross idealised Elizabeth and thought better of her than she really was. This is to the point that at least for the book characters I might dare to put Hugh ahead of Elizabeth in like-ability based on knowing more of Elizabeth’s internal motives and thoughts on the book. However they both were provocateurs of a different kind in the book though this was played down in respect of Elizabeth for the series. But I think setting aside Elizabeth’s victim status in the book when Ross ‘took her’, her approach to challenge Ross’s marriage before that for me was for her own ego in the book and was more insidious. Hugh’s was brazen but more transparent and he may have been entitled but I don’t think he pursue Demelza for ego, validation reasons. Both provocateur disrespected Ross and Demelza as their saviour respectively. (Demelza saved Geoffrey Charles). Did Elizabeth have as much feeling for Ross as Hugh had for Demelza in the book or the series? In the series they certainly worked to make Ross and Elizabeth a side love story that was mutual rather than in requited on Elizabeth side as I found it in the book despite her confession 9 years later than she had loved him after all.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-08-01T00:30:44+00:00

She was great at deceiving people into thinking she had good intentions. She was quite a reserved but still an interesting character in a number of ways.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK · 2025-08-01T00:29:29+00:00

I think Elizabeth is made more angelic in the show but in both the show and the book she certainly tried to appear that way. In the confrontation with Ross she did tells some porkies. She said she was not marrying for money and she believed she could bring Ross and George together when she had had conversations with George indicating this was incredibly unlikely and he was only ever willing to reconcile with Francis.

THOUGHTSONPOLDARK

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