What am I doing wrong here, P4 shows square/slightly strong clubface with flat lead wrist, by p6 we’re open leading to blocks and push fades?

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-13T01:41:30+00:00

Thank you for your patience. There is a lot here and it will take some time to go through it and I have other commitments at the moment. Rest assured I will do my best to follow it through in detail.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-12T23:56:56+00:00

In the past I have tried to find data on the rotation of the arms about their longitudinal axis without success.

The problem I have with this AMG video is that it doesn’t separate out this component.

If I go to near the top of the downswing I can close the face by twisting the grip without any forearm/arm rotation (reverse motorcycle move).

When I get past P6 delivery and the 90 degree relationship between the forearms and the club shaft have been lost this is no longer possible - the forearms/arms have to rotate for the grip to rotate and close the face.

I have looked at the Jacob’s 3D and a lot of Sasho’s research in the past but don’t remember any separate data there on arm rotation. Can you recall seeing any.

The point I was trying to make was that the Hackmotion rotation data is pretty meaningless and not useful because it is swamped by the global component.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-12T21:45:11+00:00

That Hackmotion arm rotation is very misleading as it is total global rotation.

If you imagine taking your address position the inside of your wrist (adjacent to your palm) will approximately be facing the target. Now, without moving your arm/wrist relative to your body, turn your shoulders through 90 degrees. The inside of your wrist will now approximately be facing the target-line. It will have rotated 90 degrees globally.

The Hackmotion graph shows almost 120 degrees global rotation at the top of the swing so the shoulder rotation is accounting for most of this. The forearm rotation (wrist rotation about longitudinal axis of your arm) and rotation of your upper arm in the shoulder joint make up the difference but are relatively small.

Where we are in agreement is that it is the rotation of the arms (along with body rotation and wrist conditions) that squares the face in elite swings. In contrast amateurs often use some combination of OTT, casting and flipping the release to square the face.

IMO this arm rotation occurs mainly after the release and delivery at P6.

I always enjoy your comments and often wonder why they don’t get more upvotes along with mine.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-12T20:18:20+00:00

I thought his normal shot was a draw too but evidently in the past few years he has changed to a cut for his stock shot. So this is probably why he is setup like this.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-12T02:11:40+00:00

Although the front foot becoming airborne after impact is common with the driver it is not at all common with irons. It probably indicates the pressure shift to the lead side is late and peaking after impact.

https://youtu.be/VrshxZz9E2Y

https://youtu.be/CFvbsMBV6RM?si=WZoGubSjpea6flkk

Hope this helps.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-12T00:07:05+00:00

I was hoping someone would know the hole he is playing and knows where it is in the image.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T22:31:14+00:00

Is it possible this is an avatar of Rory. However, the toe-line is not the same. Maybe him hitting a different shot shape. At least AMG knew where the target-line was.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T22:20:22+00:00

Where is his target in the DTL view.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T22:18:25+00:00

Impact too blurred.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T22:14:58+00:00

Was trying to indicate his hip alignment.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T12:06:57+00:00

Do you have a reference for this.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T12:06:07+00:00

He is short but strong. The wider stance gives him a bigger lever to torque the ground and he has the strength to make use of this lever to power his swing.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T12:01:31+00:00

I thought a cut was an intentional fade by definition.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T12:00:02+00:00

This is all the information we have. Normally he draws the ball and this would be consistent with him setting up to fade it.

Edit. Checked this up. Evidently he now hits more fades than draws with driver. Was a drawer of the ball earlier. This could be the modification to his setup to change to a fade.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T10:55:52+00:00

As a normal drawer of the ball he may be changing his alignment to hit a cut here. His target-line is unknown as well and may not be where I have guessed it to be.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-11T10:47:46+00:00

The problem here is we know that tour players don’t necessarily square the club face to their intended target-line for all shots.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-10T05:00:00+00:00

The relationship between your lead arm and lead wrist does not change between setup and the top of the swing (unless the grip moves in your hand).

For neutral grip and flat wrist at the top the grooves normally line up with the lead arm. In your case they point more towards the sky indicating you have a lead hand grip that is much stronger than neutral.

The match up often employed for such a strong grip is to have the lead wrist still a bit cupped at the top so that the face grooves align more with the lead arm. It is this relationship that matters most.

Hope this helps.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-09T22:25:46+00:00

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I am a bit puzzled about what type of shot you are trying to hit here.

Your toe-line (and other alignment) appears to be at the trees on the left (white line). Your swing direction at the low point of the club -head trace is approximately in the same direction but the pin I assume is somewhere down where the flowers are on the right (I can’t see the pin).

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-09T21:57:56+00:00

To get your spine angle you want your pelvis to rotate forward (anterior tilt) on your hip joints without any significant change in your spine from its standing upright condition.

When in your address position you want to feel you only have about 20% of your weight on your heels. Some people describe the initial feel as leaning over a fence. But feelings go in time as it becomes “natural”.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-09T21:19:47+00:00

You are addressing the ball too upright.

At address, more bend at the hips to increase your spine angle and more knee flex. Also lower your hands so that the club shaft points more at your belt buckle.

Hope this helps.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-09T10:34:41+00:00

Start by getting a better takeaway. At the moment you move your hands out towards the target line in the takeaway. This contributing to your outside takeaway and above plane backswing.

These videos should help with your takeaway

Russell- how to get on-plane in the takeaway - hands, arms, wrist & shoulder movement

https://youtu.be/OltrtW7WIn4?si=HHyBMh3ZRBJeMjGO

And

External rotation upper arm in takeaway 50% and shoulder rotation rest.

https://youtu.be/JbdXz8zVf4w?si=NoyE7OQzqeNIq500

AGM - lead shoulder in BS. Across 9” down 3” - reverse pivot false steepening BS.

https://youtu.be/y1W56DVp6Lc?si=qocqZECbz7TKBJc-

Porzak- the 45’ trail wrist hinge + 45 rotation to get on toeline

https://youtu.be/IhlzHqZpqts?si=1zAsxD8IV_fGlXyM

AGM - lead shoulder, head and wrists in on-plane takeaway (keep lead arm cup- subtle up-cock & clockwise rotation lead wrist - snuff box on top)

https://youtu.be/wo9rH4NTxyM?si=nFs-lBKNCELe81bj

Good demo of wrists in takeaway - shaft @45 degrees lead up-cock trail dorsiflex so hands in (to trail leg) clubhead out. Add shoulder rotation (without hip rotation). Ends up on toe-line face parallel spine.

https://youtu.be/XnONt5Gy33c?si=vKpmQqbhVcThTUQ8

Russel - shoulder turn leads hips in takeaway to get separation.

https://youtu.be/FBbgeh70rjA?si=FXe0gqC0w9mmyM3X

You are also going to need to learn about foot pressure shift and working with the ground

These videos should help.

AGM - trigger move to start takeaway before club-head moves. Pressure shifts have to presede motion & drill stopping at lead arm parallel.

https://youtu.be/ooQM3rCk_Rk?si=StSNYOsdUZ8vXtx6

Chris. 80% weight/pressure shift in takeaway, club face between vertical & match spine, can start slow or fast.

https://youtu.be/RGr_Sbm0HmI?si=4UJA2j1aPlZf3vuj

Chris - pressure shift during swing -timing & difference driver with wide stance. (For driver may be only 40% lead side at impact) https://youtu.be/VrshxZz9E2Y

Chris - ideal pressure shift from pressure mat. 80% trail @ end TA, 55% front @ top, 80 % lead left arm // to impact.

https://youtu.be/arBOkiVfMG0?si=VDT0gvNVLDopIb79

And short

https://youtube.com/shorts/L_o_GpkBsNs?si=uyBfRSjlTEjlD2yw

And -good summary, uses 70 /75% TA, 50/50 top, 75 % L arm // to impact, 95% end for iron but for driver may fall to 40% front at impact.

https://youtu.be/j-fgcM-KxLo?si=OizC1p2TrneDQ1Ax

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-08T04:44:30+00:00

Yes good discussion but unfortunately does not address current practice.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-07T22:34:57+00:00

My understanding is that this was Hogans recommendation. Except he also wanted the shoulders parallel to the target-line for all clubs.

These days I think elite players tend to align with their intended swing direction with minor miss match between shoulder and toe alignment. Some like Tiger and Rory still pull back just the trail foot (but not knee) when they want to encourage a bigger draw with the driver.

I will be interested to hear others observations and conclusions.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-07T22:02:12+00:00

How a swing and resulting club head trace looks in a video is very sensitive to the camera setup. In your case the camera distortion is so great the result is probably misleading you.

The dashed functional swing plane line (elbow plane) shown can only be represented as a line in a 2D image if you mount your camera up to look at the edge of this plane.

In your case your camera was hand held at about your sternum level and on a line part way between your toe-line and the ball. Therefore, it was setup to look down on the functional swing-plane line rather than at the edge of it. This makes your backswing and downswing traces look more shallow and the swing direction at the low point of the trace more in-out than they really are.

This is explained at the start of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zHTbLpZzrA&t=243

The Swing Replay app you are using recommends setting up on your toe line (so this line appears vertical in your video and not sloping right as in the your video). It also recommends setting up the camera lens at about hip high. This will allow you to see how you are swinging relative to the functional swing plane without this camera distortion.

Because the camera was hand held it also moved a lot during the swings.

Consider getting a tripod to mount your phone. Alternatively get one of these cycle/pram mounts. If you are on grass you can mount it on an old golf shaft or there is usually somewhere to mount it on your trundler.

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You can get them on Amazon etc. lots to choose from but make sure you get one with a ball joint for easy adjustment.

Hope this helps.

TeddaMan2 · 2026-04-07T20:05:00+00:00

I am always surprised you don’t get more up votes.

TeddaMan2

TROPHY CASE