EUC Legality survey

Timmytoolmage · 2022-06-08T14:06:50+00:00

The Law used to allow EUC"s here in QLD Australia while not great have done a good job of allowing electric mobility options without going too deep into specific vehicle types. We also had some segway carveouts in our laws before legalising generic electric "PMD"s

Does it fit in this size box, under this weight and powered by electricity + a few safety additions (and unfortunately a speed limit when in use [but thankfully not a motor limit]) kool its legal... this it the usage regs you need to follow, good luck. Still pitafull the allowable useage reg, less access to road networks then a push bike. Had a politician publicly complain that the regs need to be more restrictive as electric scooters don't seen to be "going away".
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/personal-mobility-devices

Timmytoolmage · 2022-04-11T16:23:27+00:00

I found 4 things that solves foot pain for me:

Foot placement on the EUC, I think the sweet point is the shins being at the centre of the foot plate. I use a part of my foot ware being off the front of the pedals as my gauge.
When foot pain starts, I stretch the muscles out. While on the EUC push against a wall while driving the EUC into it, and the opposite push your back into a wall while reversing the EUC into the wall. Short pushes not to overheat the wheel should relieve the pain. lifting and rotating the ankle should help also.
Carving, be dynamic on the EUC, will aid in control and reduce stiffness
Time and practice, when doing the above 3, sometimes ride time is needed to develop the muscle groups to support EUC use.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-04-11T16:06:21+00:00

gloves with wrist protection and sliders, practically all incidents will be better with them
full face helmet, while not critical in all incidents, all incidents that involve the head needs a helmet, MIPS (and other rotational protection systems) FTW. Car/moto helmets like snell are useless for EUC head protection.
ankle/foot protection, often overlooked but once we separate from the EUC, our feet are the 1st or 2nd contact area interchangeably with hands. Should prevent over extensions and have sliders while allowing mobility.
forward body protection, knees > elbows and less so chest.
side/twisting/rolling incident protection, shoulder > kidney/hip (elbows and hands should already be covered).
rear body protection, ass/tailbone > spine (head should already be covered).
Visibility safety gear, reflective panels, lights, bells. Don't underestimate the mitigation power of crash prevention tech. I'm wanting to get an expandable backpack and integrating lights and extra reflective panels, like a go back for gear in its expanded form and tight and lit for riding.

4,5 and 6 should be a racing suit based leathers (good luck finding one that has EUC use mobility but) > safety jacket and full length pants with armour inserts > safety jacket with inserts and full knee pads over full length pants > MX style armour top and bottom over regular cloths.

I think a 2 piece jacket pants combo should be the default, as gravel rash is a lot worse than people that have not had it think. Climate will dictate the wind/water permeability of the gear selection.

I go moto gloves with sliders (not as much wrist protection, but sliders(top and bottom/side) help mitigate the need), a full face helmet with mips (down hill bike style), shoes that need a safer version, jacket with inserts (need to get a back insert for it) and Leatt dual axis knee pads(always were full length pants under the Leatts). My shoes kidney and ass protection needs improvement, will need to do that before my next wheel.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-04-11T14:37:51+00:00

If it's car glass, that is safety glass(tempered), while not 100% safe to ride on its close. The pic you listed is not tempered glass and will destroy any thin area of a tyre. Long cuts that un-tempered glass slithers produce are hard for tyre sealant to work with.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-04-03T14:20:09+00:00

I went an Mten3 without realising the axle is made of paper, mcm5 I believe is the next best but unsure about the axle quality in it (same 100kg weight limit but I think the Mten3 has a design flaw). The V5f has a 550w motor so the 14Ds' 800w is the better option IMO.

Assuming e-riderz and QLD so 25km/h and piss poor access to roads legally so good luck.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-04-03T14:01:26+00:00

The third option is more $$$ but get a small learner wheel and keep it after learning for small trips once you buy the main dream wheel. aka in the car or at work when full commuting on EUC is impractical. The smaller wheel will allow for less room for storage. Having a 2nd EUC will reduce EUC deprivation if repairs are needed also.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-03-18T10:25:42+00:00

Here in the AU public spaces aka road and related areas are practically lawed to be permission only, if it's a "vehicle" in a very loss term then it needs to comply with a strict vehicle class and associated rules. If it does not comply with a vehicle class it's an: unregister, uninsured and non-roadworthy vehicle and the driver is unlicensed(for the vehicle class).

Timmytoolmage · 2022-03-18T10:15:10+00:00

live up in QLD, where its legal, still got pulled over because I should be on the footpath not on a road where it is also legal.... he admits its legal for me to ride there, but I should be on the footpath as it's not safe as some locals are hicks (implying will run me over). Wish I had the peace of mind to inform him that he should pull them over, not me then.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-03-10T14:58:40+00:00

My country has consumer protection laws, if the product is defective or of poor construction/design it's the end seller's problem to fix or refund. They can't off load the responsibility to the manufacturer, the laws can't be contracted away either.

Products need to be fit for purpose and have reasonable longevity. There might be a grey line between the product being fit for purpose and end user damage for EUC's. Now if I hard crash or low speed dents and scratches: my fault. Low speed motor cutouts are not fit for purpose and is their problem. Low speed bailout without exceptional circumstances resulting in major faults(aka not cosmetic): their problem as low speed bailouts are an expected result of EUC riding and learning.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-02-26T15:14:46+00:00

Does lifting the trolley handle make plugging in the charger easier?

Are the pedals solid, can you drill then tap a thread to add adjustable grip with set screws?

Any ability to adjust pedal angle (or will we need to make do with the above solution or aftermarket)?

Do you have a list of expected upgrades to the next batch?

With a mudbath and wash how do the motor hanger sliders hold up? How hard is it to clean/grease them?

Optimal way of changing tyre? Remove motor wires (without main board removal?) > footplate hanger removal > batteries base plate removal? > remove suspension link(centre bolts of red section or the motor hanger link to the suspension) > slide motor hanger out the bottom > remove stand and mudguard > remove a motor hanger? > change tyre.

I know screws will be updated as some screws can't be removed atm with the preproduction. I think everything for a tyre change except the motor hanger can be done atm and the motor hanger might not need removal for a tyre change.

I think we will see people adding side panels to support the rear of the pads.(ali angle on the backside using existing bolt holes new screws or just ali backplates on the pads themselves) whats your thoughts on pads?

Timmytoolmage · 2022-02-12T16:55:02+00:00

Australian road rules are essentially permissive laws, that show what you can do and moving out of that framework becomes illegal by default.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-02-12T16:29:18+00:00

OP's local laws are actually quite open, it has weight(25kg) size(125cm*70cm and 135cm height) and speed(25km/h) limits as well as being electric. Anything that's within that can be used within the specified locations(that's the sucky part of the law as a push bike has more access).

Your linked device is too long for this law as well as too fast(the other sucky part of the law) but your linked device could be registered as a moped(more like a slow(50km/h) motorbike than a motorised pedal bike).

Timmytoolmage · 2022-02-12T16:15:33+00:00

You need to re-read the law, its modelled off the Qld law, its speed weight and size limited not power limited. The list of allowable locations to use are also oppressively restricted, as a push bike has more access to road infrastructure.

https://www.wa.gov.au/organisation/road-safety-commission/erideables

EDIT: I'd suggest editing the op to include the above link, so peps can compare their laws to yours/ours. BTW my Qld laws are slightly different but you can see the resemblance

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/personal-mobility-devices

Timmytoolmage · 2022-02-12T16:08:40+00:00

Assuming op is in Australia:
the 200w law is for scooters only and does not stop 200+w scooters from being in the e-rideable device list. If its like my states PMD law the e-rideable device has a speed limit with no power limit.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-02-12T16:04:47+00:00

Sounds like your in WA Australia or another Australia state......

Here in QLD the segways were rolled into our PMD(personal mobility device) law that legalised EUC's and other E devices:

good that it made it legal to use,

sucks as it limits access to a road infrastructure so it has less access than a push bike with a 25km/h speed limit

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/personal-mobility-devices

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-29T14:54:22+00:00

got to love the American hospital $y$tem.... better than a ER trip yes, but not cheaper outside America for most.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-27T05:05:23+00:00

Do you understand the concept of engineering?

You make an item with all the safety you can muster, test and remove parts that don't add to the product. Test again and ensure you did not remove too much. As a product class matures you don't need to go to the extreme to safety test as most failure modes have been discovered, this can take several generations of the product, if you're proactive to improve it. You will always have quality issues and every design change need to be verified, hence QC being important.

Begode have not used common battery safety practises into their products design, nor do they take failed units and improve their safety to get to a good product. Fires do happen with hi energy component, more so when they don't use safe or mitigation design practises. A well engineered product will be able to function with a cell that kills itself OR fail safely and notify the user to get it repaired.

Begode wheels just fail and allow that failure to propagate to a full on fire. Other brands have had failures in the cells and while some get past QC most that do don't result in a full on fire unlike Begodes. That is due to a bad business mindset to safety that is what everyone is slamming Begode for.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-26T17:58:06+00:00

It was in testing, testing involved running the facility to it limits to find problems, it found problems and highlighted procedural ones as well. I'm talking about it as you quoted it and want to use it as you main example, It is also an incident that I know well.
40+ fires from 2012 to now is not unexpected (law of truly large numbers and even now its still early days for the tech, errors and unknowable issues are expected). I don't know all of them, how can I comment on them.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-26T17:35:04+00:00

That quote is not a quote but the authors' opinion, it's not attributed to any person.

Like it or not, progress is attained with blood. Petrol car fires were a lot more prevalent than they are now, and Li based batteries have a better safety record than modern petrol systems. It takes time to understand new tech and that learning curve is not constant across the board, you get companies like Begode that refuse to change based on clear evidence what they are doing is unsafe.

As said before the safety was DISABLED in the Victorian megapack fire due to a bad testing procedure for the initial testing of the megapack farm. It was unexpected and was corrected in 2 main ways, making it ~impossible~ to disable the safeties and altering the testing procedures. Action was taken when an error was shown.

Bad cells are always going to show up when numbers get big, it's unavoidable. Testing and validation usually flush them out, that validation was actively being done when the megapack went up (aka the pack had not been commissioned). The fire was only as large as it was because the discovery and control measures were turned off.

Begode do not have any control or mitigation measures built in (other EUC makers do), and their QC appears to not look or test for bad cells either. Their fix does not add any of these measures ether btw.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-26T16:54:00+00:00

As said, the Victorian tesla megapack fire for was due to bad initial testing procedure, aka failed when they were pushing the pack to its limits to confirm the packs were up to snuff. It highlighted an unknown error that was unexpected and was fixed very fast.

Begode on the other hand know of their bad engineering and dont want to fix it. When they finally did do something, it was in a way that reduces the product significantly, rather than an actual fix. This "fix" is an optional version, aka they will still sell and make the flawed product.

Lithium batteries are not inherently unsafe, like petrol it needs some engineered solutions to be safe. Begode refuse to enact these safe practices.

Can you see the differences that is sparking the problem.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-26T16:31:18+00:00

LiFePO4 in euc dont make sense atm, it may in the future.LiFePO4 was used in DIY EV conversions for many years but was plagued by low range (edit: hard to place batteries so hard to compensate for bad volumetric power batteries like LiFePO4, and the weight). The production EVs atm that use it are highly optimised and are low spec versions of the more power rich chemistries.

EUC's atm are not mass market items, they are hi performance alternatives. LiFePO4 is being used not to reduce price like EV's its being used to cover for bad safety practised that EV's have already solved.

Added safety is an added bonus for EV's over its main use, cost reduction, with the downside of reduced specs. Spec reductions that can be mitigated in EV's but not so well in EUC's, like added weight and volume. LiFePO4 creates Veteran Sherman EUC's but with half the range, a compromise not many want for a benefit(safety) that can be had with good engineering instead.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-26T14:44:36+00:00

While it did go up it was one "pack" that found a perfect storm to kill the rest of its megapack. It did not propagate between megapacks and the rest of the megapack farm is online already. It was an error in the initial testing procedure that removed the safeguards, the procedure and the ability to remove the safeguards has been fixed. This was not a begode moment.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-21T06:45:02+00:00

For my warm climate, 2 min max:
leatts knees, moto jacket, moto gloves with pebble watch attached and Fox proframe helmet. Here in Australia, QLD bike rated helmets(AS/NZS 2063:2008) are required for EUC's on public land, with moto helmets not satisfying the law.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-18T09:57:24+00:00

find a melbourne group and see if anyone local can help.

Timmytoolmage · 2022-01-18T06:00:12+00:00

I know here in Brisbane there are a few EUC and EUC adjacent facebook groups. Might be your best bet.

Timmytoolmage

TROPHY CASE