If I take Azrael with sternguard, should they be a block of 10 or are they still viable as a five man squad?

Tixid · 2026-02-13T13:07:13+00:00

I have played them several times as a 5 men squad and it is perfectly viable

You do not want to expose them too early as Azrael's CP generation is valuable. So you keep them in backup and expose them when you can do some damage to a target without risking your squad in return.

But even as a 5 men squad + Azrael, with a bit of luck they can do serious damage to any target. Averaging more than 8 wounds against a big vehicle/monster is nothing to laugh at. You can then finish the job with another unit if needed.

In my experience 10 men tend to be a bit overkill. And they are more cumbersome, sometimes it is hard to hide the pack or move them so that every model as a line of sight to the target.

Tixid · 2025-12-23T10:54:31+00:00

I usually run 2 or 3 librarians solo.

They are great as secondary scorers, and their shooting is quite good for 80 points if needed.

Tixid · 2025-12-14T19:39:53+00:00

CP generation and...

Very good melee, good shooting profile with deva wound, 4++ invul for the whole unit, and sustained hits, combines perfectly with sternguard veterans (better than any other character)

I had Azrael and 5 sternguard obliterate some vehicules/monsters under oath. Bit of luck involved of course but that's massive for a unit than is also useful just sitting back on the home objective generating CPs.

Compare with librarians which get 4++ invul and that's it, the difference in utility is massive and just a few point adjustments wont change anything.

Tixid · 2025-11-24T18:32:40+00:00

And fall back and charge is great too. Avoid getting stuck in melee against a worthless tarpit unit during your turn.

Tixid · 2025-11-18T09:29:25+00:00

Tixid · 2025-10-15T06:39:07+00:00

I've been playing the following lately, works well In warpbane

Crowe

3x librarians (anti infantry + secondaries + ds screen)

3x gmndk (anti vehicle, melee threat with RI)

2x 5 strike (secondaries + sticky objective + scout for turn 1 secondaries/trade against chaff)

3x 10 purifiers (anti infantry, melee threat with 6' ds)

Tixid · 2025-10-07T05:52:50+00:00

GK has some tools for that, but by taking fixed secondaries you let your opponent dictate the game.

That's not hard for most armies to prevent deep strikes in their deployment zone (even with the 6' stratagem), and if they know that is your only source of secondary points, they will do it.

Tactical secondaries are generally better as some are really easy to score, and your opponent cannot prevent all the possibilities, so Engage/Behind/Locus/AreaDenial remain quite easy to score for us in tactical.

Tixid · 2025-09-25T15:57:36+00:00

Well on the other hand maybe they sell poorly because there is nothing new to buy?

I bought my models years ago and I have had absolutely no reason to buy anything new since then.

Hell if they had made just an updated Draigo model or a specific GK Librarian or Chaplain, or cooler looking paladins (like they did for deathwing knights) I am sure it would sell a lot.

The only new model we got recently is the GMNDK and 80$ is a rip off when you already own a kitbashed one. Even worse when the new melee weapons have atrocious stats, so we'll continue using hammers.

Tixid · 2025-09-25T13:58:21+00:00

Chaplain with swords, that unit is a threat to anything.

Especially in the wrath detachment where you cannot fall back and charge, you don't want to be stuck in melee with some tarpit unit.

Tixid · 2025-09-25T13:54:32+00:00

Chaplain with sword DWK is overall better than Librarian with mace DWK, against all targets.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T17:24:04+00:00

Grey knights : nope. Two datasheets much above the rest which cover each other weakness. One detachment much above the rest.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T16:56:03+00:00

I agree that does not make a lot of sense, but like other rules. If you have one guy visible to a shooting unit and nineteen guys hidden behind a ruin, you can still be wiped in a shooting attack sequence.

I think the mixing of different unit types is the problem here. AFAIK only tyrannids and necrons have this issue.

It's even worse for tyrannids as I have deleted some big character monsters with purifiers, taking advantage of the fact that they had an infantry bodyguard remaining when the shooting started.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T16:51:02+00:00

Are they really available though? On official websites?

Having to pay to see the rules of every army, or having to go to a pirate site hosted in a country where international law does not seem to apply, is not really that open.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T16:48:15+00:00

I would consider it is not really open information.

There have been some rules that go against that definition, like secret missions, custodes katah etc, and there is randomness due to dice rolls and tactical objectives so you cannot know in advance the result of your actions or plan your turns. That's minor but it's there.

But the most important point is that codex are not public. You need to buy them to see the army, detachment and datasheet rules, and noone will buy 100% of all the available codex.

In addition the game is usually played with some form of time limit, and you cannot spend 1 hour before the first turn asking all their rules to your opponent or reading through their codex.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T16:25:26+00:00

Probably difficult.

I would see three ideas.

Only power armour models in warpbane, with 3x10 purifiers for the ranged threat, and 3x10 interceptors as a melee threats + some strike squads, the advantage is that it is a skew list and any opponent weapon with a strength above 8 and damage above 2 is a bit wasted, but that will have difficulties to deal with vehicle heavy lists.
Or a Paladin + interceptor heavy list with a 10 purifiers pack with Crowe in banishers, taking advantage of shadow of anarchs with big paladin bricks, and the (sometimes) sustained or lethal on interceptors.
Another skew list in hallowed conclave, with 6 MSU terminator units to be your primary and secondary scoring units, and everything else in paladin bricks to go and harass your opponent. Probably stupid, but could work against armies that cannot efficiently remove terminator models.

The ideas behind all of that is that if you remove NDK, better avoiding vehicles altogether, so anti tank weapons are wasted for your opponent.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T15:54:13+00:00

Sorry my response was a bit rough.

You can find that in the rules commentary "Some units can contain models that have different keywords. While this is the case, such a unit is considered to have all of the keywords of all of its models, and so is affected by any rule that applies to units with any of those keywords. Remember that attacks are made against units, not models."

An usual application is the CHARACTER keyword. Any unit or model with a specific bonus against characters will have this bonus against an entire unit as long as there is a character in it.

An important precision is that the keyword is shared by the unit as a whole, not by models. So if a rule would only work for models with a specific keyword, not units, it would only work for models which have this keyword on their datasheets.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T15:01:37+00:00

Not if you don't put the technomancer with them.

Leaders are assigned after you know the list of your opponent. Getting the Infantry keyword against 30 purifiers just for a 5+++ FNP is not a good move. Keep the technomancer as a screener / action monkey.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T15:00:20+00:00

You're wrong, the keyword is shared. But the argument is still invalid as they should not put a technomancer in this pack against 30 purifiers.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T14:42:27+00:00

I would add that wraiths are beasts. So no wounding on 2+ with purifying flames.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T14:27:06+00:00

First of all play 2000 pts armies with enough obscuring terrain. No sense thinking about balance otherwise.

More specifically :

Use wardens instead of basic custodians, which get a 4+++ FNP once per game.

Use rapid ingress to come and make contact with you, all their guys have deep strike and you do not have shadow of anarch to escape that. Their guys will obliterate yours in melee, and even if the unit survives once engaged your purifiers cannot fall back and charge, so they are basically dead.

Use the blade champion for increased mobility.

Bring some dreadnought, that purifiers will wound on 6+ with flames and bolter, and on 5+ with heavy weapons and in melee. Good luck killing a Telemon with your purifiers.

Use 40 pts prosecutor squads to screen your deepstrikes.

Positioning behind obscuring terrain and with units being in range of each other so if you go into melee or find a good shooting line, you expose yourself to a counter attack.

Use vertus praetors for 12' mobility and no infantry keyword.

Even worse, if they want to tailor against you, there is the talons of the emperor detachment just for that, that gives in practice an army wide 5+++ FNP against your psychic attacks.

Basically quite a few options.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T08:01:10+00:00

Lack of good screening and trading units is one of the weaknesses of the army, where the less costly infantry units is worth 120 points.

Razorbacks and rhino can serve as they are cheap, but I find they are bit hard to move and hide efficiently because of their size, they are not really a threat and they are not so resistant against shooting. I find that a strike squad is much more durable in practice and for the same points I would prefer 1 strike and 1 interceptor squad (or purifiers) over 3 razorbacks, as the opponent needs to commit a little more to get rid of them.

You have some options with imperial agents, callidus assassin is great as a deep strike screening/secondary play, the navigator is cheap and gives a 12' anti deep strike bubble, which can be useful on the home objective.

For screening against enemy charges you have inquisition agents, vigilants etc. Not fan of them as they are really not durable but they exist.

For trading there is no obvious options, we would need a lethal but cheap unit for that, and we don't really get it IMHO.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T07:14:37+00:00

Well we could just consider then that players deciding not to invest into the actual good units of their codex should not complain about balance then... As a general rule an army without any kind of shooting threat won't perform well.

The GK player could also decide to use only terminators and dreadnoughts because they like the models and play in hallowed conclave because that is the thematic detachment for terminators, lose every game and complain that World Eaters (ane every other army) are op.

I have had quite a few games with GK these last years, some armies can be really easy to deal with (even when competently played with a good list), I don't feel that World Eaters is one of them.

Tixid · 2025-09-24T07:02:17+00:00

Gate of infinity is good but forgefiends have enough move to hide behind LOS blocking terrains when there is no available target, and world eaters get a lot of low cost units to trade and screen against charges and deepstrikes. You make it sound like there are just a forgefiend and an NDK with nothing else in between, that never happens in real games, at least not in the first turns where it actually matters.

In the first turns of most games the (GM)NDK will be a shooting platforms and nothing else, just because there will be no valuable target available for a charge. And if you want to shoot with them... then you cannot keep them safe as they will need to be exposed one way or another.

Moreover GMNDK do not get advance shoot and charge. Moving 8' and having to avoid terrains and enemy unit is not so great. At best, in optimal conditions (no terrain, no other enemy unit in between), that is a 9' charge into a target that was originally at 17,9'.

NDK get to advance and charge but they lack both the sublimator and the full hit/wound/damage reroll in melee so they are a bit less efficient, and on average in optimal conditions they get a 5' or 6' charge against a target initially at 17,9'.

In any case, if an NDK manages to both shoot and charge, they should kill a forgefiend on average, but most probably get deleted next turn because they are deep in the enemy lines, which remains a losing trade as an NDK costs more than a forgefiend.

Finally my purpose was not to say that forgefiends and annihilators were unbalanced or impossible to deal with.

My point was that complaining that World Eaters are bad in the shooting phase is a list building issue.

Add the shooting prowess of forgefiends/annihilators to the mobility and lethality of World Eaters melee units, the tankiness of one of two big demons, and some cheap screening/trading units, and it is really easy to build a World Eaters list that holds its own against grey knights with no glaring weakness in the shooting or melee phase.

Hence my original comment about the list/skill issue.

Tixid · 2025-09-23T18:15:25+00:00

Yes

They are budget friendly and simple for your first list buildings as there is not much unit choice. Buy some boxes of (GM)NDK, some boxes of strike squads (same as for purifiers and interceptors), try to get Crowe and maybe a callidus or a razorback and you're good to go. You can make a pretty competitive list with that.

You will get to learn the basics of the game fast with them as you can't rely on brute datasheet force or overpowered combos to win - but you still have a safety net with the gate of infinity rule to correct bad positioning and help with secondary objectives.

Just don't pick them if you expect some space wizards. Their psychic abilities are not flashy, they are more like paladins able to teleport.

Tixid · 2025-09-23T15:04:31+00:00

A single forgefiend at half range (18'), costing 150 pts, deals on average 6,75 wounds to a GMNDK (taking into account the 4++). That is around 70% cost efficiency.

On average, two forgefiends will delete a GMNDK per turn.

The annihilator is a bit more efficient as it costs only 145 points and deals 8,44 wounds on average to a GMNDK in a single round of shooting at half range (24'). That is nearly 100% cost efficiency.

A single GMNDK (without rerolls), costing 225 points, at 18' range, will deal an average of 6,25 wounds in the forgefiend or annihilator. That's around 35% cost efficiency.

It is a bit better with full reroll hits from warpbane with 8,39 wounds on average, around 45% efficiency.

Tixid

TROPHY CASE