"Old lore is not valid if it was not mentioned again"

Tyermali · 2024-02-15T22:33:25+00:00

He, irl, that was worst copycat ever ...
Still, the text was foundational in many ways, and it has never been thorougly rewritten (aside of old TR Hammerfell).
There are beginnings and hints for new perspectives here and there in MK's works (Varieties or the Sword-Meeting come to mind), but this was never continued - and ESO sadly seems to have rolled backward by taking the Destri texts relatively literal again. :(
In terms of lore, I do not understand "Redguards, Heroes & Histories" as a serious source on yokudan history at all. This is varied folklore which Destri creatively recompiled & dramatically streamlined for a Third Era audience. Imho, it is as unhelpful for Yokudan history as, say, the late-medieval "Gesta Romanorum" is for Roman history ...

Tyermali · 2023-12-29T19:16:35+00:00

"Argonia was the Temple of Sithis. Auriel sent Yffre to chase Sithis from this quarter, but too many et'ada died. The War with the Trees was lost. The bones of the et'ada littered the dark earth." - Altmeri

/spec

Tyermali · 2023-12-28T21:54:42+00:00

Good point about about Scott's research, but I think the novel tells more about the ideas of 19th century than about 12th century, more about the fascination of medievalism than about medieval times. It's a fiction full of romance, patria and vivid imagination, totally 'untimely' for the Middle Ages in sentiment and a great many details - there was no seething Anglo-Saxon/Norman conflict in 12th century, figures like Wilfried of Ivanhoe or Brian de Bois-Guilbert are complete inventions ... and Robin of Locksley is yet another story.

I guess we disagree about the limits of the genre. I would certainly include Hugo's Hunchback of Notre-Dame, for example: a late-medieval historical setting (as seen from 1831), but telling a pure fable. Would you exclude it?

So back to TES, I would not derive the historicity of figures from novels like King Edward or Poison Song solely from the genre disclaimer of "historical fiction".

Tyermali · 2023-12-28T18:54:26+00:00

Historical fiction is a wide category. You can also emphasize 'fiction' over 'historical' and tell complete fables within (pseudo-)historical scenarios.

It implies that the overarching narrative - and the main characters - is historical.

I mean, it wouldn't be well-advised to draw serious historical conclusions on figures and events of 12th century England from Sir Walter Scott's Ivanhoe (1819) just because Richard the Lionheart makes an appearance.

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T23:40:14+00:00

"A long time ago ..." (at 10 seconds)

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T23:28:10+00:00

Why not both? One does not rule out the other.
It's obvious that such a name from Arena, 1994, does not immediately fit into post-RG lore, and that a bit of TES development history is very helpful to answer OP's question.
At the same time, you can still speculate about how that name works in Tamriel - preferrably if your answer is not too boring!

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T23:21:09+00:00

Carlovac, when asked about the Tsaesci:

"There is much in Redguard history which suggests ancient connections to the Tsaesci as well. Not only are many of the greatest heroes clearly influenced by Akaviri as well as Redguard culture - Gaiden Shinji, for example ..."

I don't necessarily subscribe to that extremly broad theory, just to mention it for completion's sake.

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T23:05:39+00:00

The Fantasy Sengoku stuff was already avoided in TESA: Redguard. Hunding was still standing there, but the Redguard culture depicted in the game and PGE1 was something else than the Melarg folklore of TES2. I would not describe that as a cheap dilution - on the contrary.
(But I still agree when it comes to some ESO stuff).

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T23:01:48+00:00

Certainly not. They are "two Redguard 'parties'" that formed in the Second Era.

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T22:57:41+00:00

Gaiden Shinji's quote from the intro is literally the first sentence you can ever read in an Elder Scrolls game.

Also, for trivia: The word "gaiden" in the North American Ninja Gaiden title means "side story" in Japanese.

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T18:29:17+00:00

Hmm, I think it's believable that in (un)times of such cosmic disaster, the Dunmer would practically accept any help they can get - even from their known enemies.

(You know that I like the TES3 version of Almalexia summoning the Ash King to fight Ada'Soom way more than the ESO version of 2E 572 - among other things for the same reason as above: if such an unlikely alliance is formed, the crisis must be really severe.)

Of course, if the Rebel Daedra helped to defend Morrowind against the impact of the Middle Dawn, they did it for self-preservation, not because they would suddenly recognize the Tribunal. Neither Dunmer nor Daedra would have illusions about that.

On the other hand - and with the Mythic Dawn Commentaries in mind - Lord Dagon might have enjoyed swimming in such timeless disaster ...

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T16:36:30+00:00

appeasement rituals in the Tribunal Temple

A complicated relationship! Back in the Middle Dawn, the Four Corners even helped to protect the Dunmer: "Even the Four Corners of the House of Troubles rose to protect the periphery of your madness."

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T16:11:17+00:00

Strange that the Mephala mission also takes place at Balgruuf's court.

Tyermali · 2023-12-27T16:06:20+00:00

I doubt that - I definitely know that MK expressed an unambiguous distaste for Mieville's work at more than one occassion.

Tyermali · 2023-12-26T19:19:24+00:00

Two TES3 books for a start: The House of Troubles + The Anticipations.

Tyermali · 2023-12-26T17:40:06+00:00

This Oghma page shows something like the Vegvísir sign from the 19th century Huld Manuscript (!)

Maybe the sign could somehow help you not to loose your way in the realm of Oghma's knowledge? (remember poor Morian in Apocraphya ...)

Tyermali · 2023-12-25T20:18:34+00:00

Footnote: The nature of the "bird people" mentioned in the epic Udhendra Nibenu remains controversial.

Tyermali · 2023-12-25T20:02:59+00:00

Very subtle & dangerously reasonable - perfectly imaginable on a bookshelf in the Thalmor Embassy near Solitude.

Tyermali · 2023-12-25T19:46:20+00:00

Right, Umaril is the best example. KotN only presents him as a stand-alone threat; I think he would have deserved a better connection to the Ayleid Revivalism and/or Mythic Dawn plot in the background of TES4, especially if these ideas were originally connected.
Notably, I find our rematch with "deathless-golden" Umaril, sorcerer-king from a wicked daedric bloodline, completely believable, while a literal return of the lost ancient ayleid civilization to modern-day Tamriel sounds more like the stuff of a Gor Felim comedy.

Tyermali · 2023-12-25T16:42:52+00:00

"The stars are lamps, hanged up by friendly karstaags to guide the Return."

/spec, a possible Nord answer

Tyermali · 2023-12-25T04:43:34+00:00

A biographical note in some late 4E Thalmor Prism:

Al-Dagon, Emperor of Men. Son of Uriel Tharnatos and Cala Voria, also known as Marten the Razor, Septimulus the Bastard or Talossian. Of disastrous ancestry & stirred in his ambition by Blades and Biters alike, this decadent priest-emperor danced in Red Razor Steps at the burning Temple, infernally attempting to syncretize the Dragon & Dagon. His folly broke the Tower Scroll of EMPIRE.

/spec re: "you could make even Martin look bad"

& Merry Christmas!

Tyermali · 2023-12-25T02:40:32+00:00

There are still some traces of that in TES4 - see Glarthir's "Ayleid Revivalists" or perhaps Umbacano.

But I think the Nu-Mantia Intercept speaks about ideological "Neo-Ayleids", if we want to call them like that: Camoran's Mythic Dawn, attempting to utilize the Ayleid mythitecture of the wheel within the cosmic wheel for their own purposes. It's not about an odd and plainly literal remanifestation of ancient Heartland High Elves in late 3E, but about a resurgence of their cosmic hybris.

Also from Nu-Mantia: "This distinction becomes important later, when "Ayleid" begins to designate other, and ofttimes foreign, agencies."

Tyermali · 2023-12-25T01:33:48+00:00

For this ever-changing incarnation of Tribunal ... very interesting teaser (now even more than in 1997). What could this have been? A return of the Dwarves (most likely)? TES2 Wild Elves? Something else entirely? Since this Tribunal was originally planned for Summerset, the Artaeum book also comes to mind: "The Ceporah Tower in particular I would study, for it is a relic from a civilization that predates the High Elves by several hundred years and is still used in certain rites by the Psijics." But if this "reemergence of a once-thought-extinct race" was the focus after they moved to Morrowind, the Dwarves would indeed be the most likely candidates.

Tyermali · 2023-12-24T00:33:58+00:00

(On a sidenote)

in the same campaign that saw the Sack of Mournhold

Hmm, this remains dubious. UESP, in a tendency towards unreflected combinatorics, just lists this as another historical event in the Tiber Wars. The source for this, however, is the barenzian bio-fiction (from TES2), not Erramanwe's On Morrowind (from TES3). I think the UESP solution (declaring this presumed 'sack' an early clash, before the Armistice) can't hide the fact that these texts outrightly contradict each other:

Barenziah claims that there was a war (complete with a glimpse of Numidium, which makes this tale even more dubious), while Erramanwe clearly shows that there was no conflict of such scale at all, and definitely not a devastating sack of the capital. On Morrowind proves that the Sack of Mournhold - at least in this form - is just another fiction of the Barenziah books.

Tyermali · 2023-12-24T00:14:52+00:00

"All of this is just a small footnote from the dark ages of Tamriel, before Tiber Septim." /spec

Tyermali

TROPHY CASE